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There is a Difference between Muslims and Extremists

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posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by thematrix
Fusako Shigenobu - Japanees Red Army
Kach - Founded by radical Israeli-American rabbi Meir Kahane, fight for a returning of Israel to a Biblical state.
Kahane Chai founded by Meir Kahane's son Binyamin following his father's assassination in the US.
Tamil Tigers
PKK - Marxist Terrorist group trying to establish a Kurdish state in Turkey, religion isn't the point there, but the creation of a sperate kurdish state.
National Liberation Army (ELN) Colombia - Marxist Terrorist group.
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia - Colombian Communist terrorist group.
Revolutionary Organization 17 November - Greek group.
Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path, or SL) - Maoist group in Peru, killed over 30000 people so far.
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement - Marxists in Peru.
Alex Boncayao Brigade - Philipino Communist driven group.
Interahamwe - Rwandees group that was the Hutu military force that killed 500.000 people in the Rwandees genocide.
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Irish Republican Army (IRA)
First of October Antifascist Resistance Group - Communist group in Spain.
Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) - Ireland
New People's Army (NPA) - Maoist group in the Philipines.
Revolutionary United Front - Siera Lione
United Self-Defense Forces - Colombia

And thats just the ones from the "main threat" list by the US state department.

Then you also have the ones people don't really notice:

ALF - Animal Liberation front, torched 9 McDonalds and Quick restaurants in Belgium and countless more all over the world, including the US.
PETA - ... need say more? ...
KKK - ... they aren't classified as illegal or terrorists, but they are, racist extremist activists that killed more then their share of people over the last few 100 years.

And loads more.

Every religion has terrorists, every ideology has terrorists, every "activisme" has terrorists.

All ideologies have extremists and if there is an extremist you have a good chance at terrorist actions.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by thematrix]


thanks for all that, i don't know what i was thinking, guess i just got caught up in this crap. i have actually heard of most of the groups you posted, just, for some reason, slipped my mind. thanks again.




posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
I am sorry, but you must be unaware of your Christian Abortion bomber freinds; Waco; Oklamahoma; Sikh fundamentalists who blew up an Air Liner in Canada (single greatest attack on our country due to terrorism); The Japanese Buddhist extremists who decided to make thier self-written prophicies aware by gassing an entire sub-way; the Buddhist monks in South India who raid Churchs; Hinduteva in India; I could go on.......

This is just in recent history. We are yet to cover the last few centuries.

Deep


You're not reading my posts. I don't deny the violence commited by people of those other religions. What I am saying is where in the Bible does it say it's OK to murder those who intend to murder others (the supposed justification anti-abortionists have who blow-up clinics) or that it's OK to blow up government buildings (and children inside)? I'm not familiar enough to comment on Sikh fundamentalism, the Buddhist extremists, or the Hinduteva in India ( though I'm fairly confident that the teachings of Buddhism do not advocate the violence commited by extremists).

The Qur'an, however, does instruct violence against "non-believers". In fact, it's a Muslim requirement to spread the word of Islam to those willing to accept it; and for those who don't accept it, become "idolators" and therefore should either be "slayed" or placed in "Dhimmitude" (a form of financial slavery) whereby dues are paid to Muslims until such a time as when the "Dhimmi" converts to Islam. It is an ideology that is absolute AND intolerant of other ideologies or religions. This so-called "extreme" view of Islam is currently the fastest growing ideological system in the world today and unless civilized nations accept the fact that this is NOT a religion, many countries will eventually be drawn into a religious clash of cultures and eventually into all out religious civil war. I say this because it's easier (relatively) to fight a politically/socially oppressive ideology (ie: communism) than it is to fight a war based on religion.



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Worldwatcher:

I can't find anything online about this person: Sheikh Muhammad al-Mukhtar a-Shanqiti

Could you please post a link where I can read his views?


try the contacting the author of the article, link is above above the quoted story. Not everyone is online, so I'm not sure how significant your ability to google up a name to the opinion expressed in the story.


sum for freedom.....fledgling asked for non arab/non muslim terrorists, that is why I provided those links.

this thread is actually confusing me now, so i'll be back later to address any other questions directed to me and comment on the comments...gotta go shopping for a party dress now



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 11:56 PM
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I have a question.
Does the Old Testament count as a christian book? because if it does I'm sure you can find all sorts of nasty passages saying its ok to kill. If it doesnt then why do certain christians constantly refer to it when they back up their claims regarding homosexuality and creationism?

[edit on 10-12-2004 by boogyman]



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 12:04 AM
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The Old Testament god and religion is all about warfare, slavery and blood sacrifices.

And people wonder why religious folks are always fighting. It's the hot sun that these people live under that gave forth these religions and their hatred.

They should keep it in the litter box.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by Justanotherperson]



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Justanotherperson
The Old Testament god and religion is all about warfare, slavery and blood sacrifices.


Could you please provide me some passages (chapter/verse) where the Old Testament states that it is a Christain duty to kill/enslave non-Christains? I don't have a Bible in my posession and it has been difficult finding one to download. Intestingly, though, I've had no problems finding the vaious versions of the Qur'an to download.


And people wonder why religious folks are always fighting. It's the hot sun that these people live under that gave forth these religions and their hatred.


I don't understand your reference to the "hot sun". Should the sun then be blamed for religious violence?



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:15 AM
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Read this Bin Laden (May 1998) Interview

Read that one, and then google "bin laden interview" and read some of his other interviews, and read some of his statements.

I will also say that almost everything he says, I agree with. He's actually quite reasonable. Your media makes him out to be the devil, but he is not crazy, and what he says makes sense, a lot of sense. Just read his statements and interviews, and see what his deal is, and maybe it will open your eyes a bit. I'm not saying you'll agree with him, but maybe you'll understand why what is happening is necessary. Most Americans are oblivious to what their government does outside of country (even in country) and therefore cannot comprehend how anyone could hate them.

When I was little, and everyone was mad at me, I didn't blame everyone else. I examined what I did, and corrected it.

America is little and the whole world hates you. Don't blame everyone else. Examine what you did, and correct it.


[edit on 11-12-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 12:11 PM
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I come from a pretty small place. It's a tiny speck on the world map. But people of all races and religion are mostly cramped together, at work and at home. Mulims, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus, Catholics etc are mostly always in close proximity with each other, at all times.

Strange thing is that no one (except politicians) ever refers to the bombings, murders, 9/11, be-headings as a by product of religious extremism. Our immediate Northern and Southern neighbours are Muslim countries. Still, no one refers to those events as being carried out by religious extremists. Instead, we (and I dare say this includes the many Muslims that I know) prefer to look at the problem as a misrepresentation or corruption of Islamic values.

I am not Muslim. A Methodist. I believe that most, if not all non-Muslims here do not feel threatened by Muslims. The acts of killing have just been conveniently justified as being done in the name of religious duty or even democracy.

Example : from the Bible : Book of Leviticus Chapter 20 verse 10 : "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death".

In fact, in the Book of Leviticus, the list of commands goes on and on, taking a clear and stern position on from gays to shaving hair etc. There is also the straightforward and unambiguuos commandment that "Thou shall not kill". Yet, at Zechariah Chapter12 verse 9 :"And it will come about in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

Most of you will point out that I have quoted from the Old Testament and Christianity places emphasis on the New Testament, the Testament of Love, Kindness, Forgiveness and Grace. But the Old testament is still part and parcel of the Bible and Christian men, women and children carry with them warnings, teachings and words of death, destruction, "striking down" etc...

Can one moderate the words set out in the Bible ? Is there a such things as a moderate Christian ? Surely, the categorisation as "extremist", "moderate" are all a result of the eye-witness' individual feelings towards a particular act or belief.

The Hindus have the God of Destruction. The Buddhists have the God of War. Never heard of them of them carrying out bombings or be-headings etc.

So, Mohammed may have been a warrior. Infidels should be slaughtered. These words may well appear in the Koran (I do not know if they actually do appear). Yet the majority of Muslims are a peace loving community.

Point being, history is a paradox. Established and "old" religions are a paradox. Therefore, The Bible, the Koran etc, are filled with teachings which are not, on the face of them, entirely consistent and in fact, sometimes downright contradictory. Love vs destruction, belief vs tolerance. Trying to understand each own religion requires a lifetime and some more.

If a religious teacher wilfully remove the "love" and "tolerance" parts out of the education of young and gullible minds, then the product will be human bombs and butchers.

So, religious extremism does not exist. In today's context of violence and butchering, what some would perceive as "extremism" is actually the product of some cretins who claim themselves to be religious leaders. Coming from a non-Muslim, I take the position that true Muslims can never be termed as what some people would call "extremists".


[edit on 11-12-2004 by dixon]



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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Precisely my point....

By the way I'm pretty sure you wont find much mention of Christian duty of any sort anywhere in the Old Testament. Last I checked Christianity hadnt been invented when it was written...

[edit on 11-12-2004 by boogyman]



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 12:21 AM
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I have lived and traveled in the Middle East for 20 years. My wife is of Middle Eastern descent. My Arabic is very poor, though I have managed to read the Qur'an through several times in its best English translation.

I have talked extensively with Islamists in and out of business settings about this topic extensively, from Tunis to Amman.

Most of the muslims I know (educated/monied elite) outside the USA will tell you that most of the populations in their countries believe that Islam and the West simply cannot co-exist. While the violent ones are a tiny minority, it is also true that they enjoy respect and tacit support.

Certainly, there have been denunciations of Al Qaeda from prominent clerics. Yet these denunciations are never published in Arabic newspapers. It's like Arafat; he would say concilliatory things to the American cameras, and then go on a tirade in Arabic against the "Great Satan" he had signed a pact with!

You may recall the popular response to 9-11 in the Islamist world. Dancing in the streets, and firing guns in the air. Cairo. Amman. Ankhara. Tehran. Baghdad. Beyruit. Even places like Muscat and Riyadh.

If you say that "only" fundamentalist Islamists wish to destroy the west, you must go on to admit that a huge minority of muslims, maybe more than half, would be dancing and firing guns if Washington, London, and Paris ceased to exist.

I know this is an unpleasant truth. But it is my experience that most Islamists outside the US, the vast majority of them, would agree with Cstyle.

It amazes me that his posts are so completely ignored, in this very forum.

I think this collective deafness is indicative of the parataxic distortion common to liberals. You deny the truth that is too horrifying to contemplate.



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
When I was little, and everyone was mad at me, I didn't blame everyone else. I examined what I did, and corrected it.


Please continue to do this, now that you are an adult. And tell your friends to follow suit.



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 03:10 AM
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Originally posted by Chakotay

Originally posted by cstyle226
When I was little, and everyone was mad at me, I didn't blame everyone else. I examined what I did, and corrected it.


Please continue to do this, now that you are an adult. And tell your friends to follow suit.


The world is mad at America, not me.



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

I have lived and traveled in the Middle East for 20 years. My wife is of Middle Eastern descent. My Arabic is very poor, though I have managed to read the Qur'an through several times in its best English translation.

I have talked extensively with Islamists in and out of business settings about this topic extensively, from Tunis to Amman.

Most of the muslims I know (educated/monied elite) outside the USA will tell you that most of the populations in their countries believe that Islam and the West simply cannot co-exist. While the violent ones are a tiny minority, it is also true that they enjoy respect and tacit support.

Certainly, there have been denunciations of Al Qaeda from prominent clerics. Yet these denunciations are never published in Arabic newspapers. It's like Arafat; he would say concilliatory things to the American cameras, and then go on a tirade in Arabic against the "Great Satan" he had signed a pact with!

You may recall the popular response to 9-11 in the Islamist world. Dancing in the streets, and firing guns in the air. Cairo. Amman. Ankhara. Tehran. Baghdad. Beyruit. Even places like Muscat and Riyadh.

If you say that "only" fundamentalist Islamists wish to destroy the west, you must go on to admit that a huge minority of muslims, maybe more than half, would be dancing and firing guns if Washington, London, and Paris ceased to exist.

I know this is an unpleasant truth. But it is my experience that most Islamists outside the US, the vast majority of them, would agree with Cstyle.

It amazes me that his posts are so completely ignored, in this very forum.

I think this collective deafness is indicative of the parataxic distortion common to liberals. You deny the truth that is too horrifying to contemplate.



What's so difficult about understanding why we want the US out of the Arabian peninsula? And that we want them to stop propping up regimes like the Saudis?



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 01:39 PM
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Is that the sum total of Jihadi demands? Really??

IF jihadi's were true to the Qur'an, they wouldn't make war on non-combatants. They would not blow up office buildings in New York, which were full of civilians only.

Why do you object to Americans on the Arabian peninsua, but not Hindus, or "infidel" Baluchis?

How about this now infamous speech 11/04 by an Imam in a Berlin Mosque, filmed by undercover cameras:



These Germans, these atheists, these Europeans don’t shave under their arms and their sweat collects under their hair with a revolting smell and they stink,” said the preacher at the Mevlana Mosque in Berlin’s Kreuzberg district, in the film made by Germany’s ZDF public TV, adding: “Hell lives for the infidels! Down with all democracies and all democrats!”


No mention of America or anyone else in Arabia. Apparently, Americans didn't even bear mention in that particular diatribe.

Or check out this little morsel from Jihadwatch:

www.jihadwatch.org...
from the south african Mufti Ebrahim Desai



You should understand that we as Muslims firmly believe that the person who doesn't believe in Allah as he is required to, is a disbeliever who would be doomed to Hell eternally. Thus one of the primary responsibilities of the Muslim ruler is to spread Islam throughout the world, thus saving people from eternal damnation.

Thus what is meant by the passage in Tafsir Uthmani, is that if a country doesn't allow the propagation of Islam to its inhabitants in a suitable manner or creates hindrances to this, then the Muslim ruler would be justifying in waging Jihad against this country, so that the message of Islam can reach its inhabitants, thus saving them from the Fire of Jahannum. If the Kuffaar allow us to spread Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them.



No reference to America, there, either.

Hmmm. Funny Cstyle, how when you want to appear threatening, then you post about how the west will soon be wailing for mercy. But then, when you are feeling concilliatory, then islamists just want to be left alone . . .

Which makes me feell that you're not being completely honest, at least part of the time.

The big picture is not about America at all, or even the west. The big picture is that the only way to appease Islamists is to convert to Islam.



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 02:10 PM
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I am neither concilliatory, nor threatening.

All I am saying is, as long as the US props up dictators which are friendly to them, kills dictators that are unfriendly, and maintains control over Muslim lands, then the "terror" will never stop. Israel uses America for it's agenda, even some Americans say that.

Read Bin Laden's May interviews, he is very clear. Muslims want Khalifah, and as long as the US has got it's hands all over the Mideast, that will never happen. So the US economy must be brought down to the level where it can no longer afford these operations. It's pretty simple.

"Freedom" has nothing to do with it. Khalifah is not a dictatorship, nor a democracy. It is Allah's law, and the people are free to enjoy themselves under Allah's law. The Ummah will still trade Oil and whatever with you, just at a more reasonable price, and not allow you to steal it.

Muslims do not want to destroy America, or turn America into an Islamic country. Just leave the Muslim lands, stop the wars, and stop helping Israel oppress Palestinians. Since those things will never happen willingly, the result is clear.



posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by cstyle226

"Freedom" has nothing to do with it. Khalifah is not a dictatorship, nor a democracy. It is Allah's law, and the people are free to enjoy themselves under Allah's law.



There you go.

As I posted earlier, you may say that non-muslims have nothing to fear from the Khalifah, but other, well known Islamists certainly paint a different pictue.

And just look at your list of demands. Does Germany, does France support Israel? Are they occupying Arabia?

Just like with Stalin and Hitler: As soon as your demands are met, new demands will appear. And as soon as those are met . . .

What was it Rumi said about all the other animals trying to convince the sheep to reach a compromise with the tiger?

No matter what you and I may say, it is not us, or even our leaders who will decide. It is the people holding the guns who will map everyones futures.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
I am neither concilliatory, nor threatening.

All I am saying is, as long as the US props up dictators which are friendly to them, kills dictators that are unfriendly, and maintains control over Muslim lands, then the "terror" will never stop. Israel uses America for it's agenda, even some Americans say that.


I assume the "dictators" you're talking about is the the House of Saud. I don't believe them to be friendly to the US. The only reason they are fighting "extremism" is because they see it as a threat to their existence. It's ironic, however, that Saudi Arabia has used Wahhabiism as a means to control its people; and now, it's biting them back.

You say Muslims simply want the US and other western nations out of Muslim lands, yet they want our money from the sale of oil. What you're saying is the same as if a restaraunt told its customers please pay us but we don't want you in our store. Your view is simply befuddling to me.



Read Bin Laden's May interviews, he is very clear. Muslims want Khalifah, and as long as the US has got it's hands all over the Mideast, that will never happen. So the US economy must be brought down to the level where it can no longer afford these operations. It's pretty simple.


Why are muslims so intolerant of other people/beliefs? If it weren't for this intolerance the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 would bever have happened. The Israelis are historically entitled to their land and they needed a place to go to seek refuge from mass-murder and persecution in other nations. Instead of providing a safe haven and welcoming a peaceful people, Palestinians and other arab nations attacked them and subsequently lost the battle (I guess Allah wasn't so willing). So now, instead of capitulating to defeat, Palestinian "mujahadeen" target innocent civillians (women and children) which in my veiw, makes them cowards. The arabs LOST the war and it's only becasue of the tolerant nature of the Jews that the Palestinians are still there. Now terrorists, like Bin Laden, use the arab's failure in war as the bully pulpit from which to stand its ground? It's a failed plan and it will never work. And they will never cause permanant or massive damage to western economies.



"Freedom" has nothing to do with it. Khalifah is not a dictatorship, nor a democracy. It is Allah's law, and the people are free to enjoy themselves under Allah's law. The Ummah will still trade Oil and whatever with you, just at a more reasonable price, and not allow you to steal it.


"Free to enjoy themselves" except music is not allowed. Education is not permitted for young girls. Women are forced into subjugation lest they be stoned to death. Children are forced to spend most of their young lives rocking back and forth in madrassas memorising the Qu'ran and learning little else.

And you're still advocating oil trade albiet, at a "reasonable" price, whatever that is. If it weren't for oil, arabs would still be driving camels and living in mud huts and caves. Arabs come to Europe and America to seek an education (becasue we are tolerant of other people/beliefs) yet many use that education to destroy, not create. Name one thing productive that has come from an Arab nation that has benefited the world.


Muslims do not want to destroy America, or turn America into an Islamic country. Just leave the Muslim lands, stop the wars, and stop helping Israel oppress Palestinians. Since those things will never happen willingly, the result is clear.


The goal of the Khalifa is to unite all Islamic lands and people and subjugate the rest of the world. There is nothing I would want more than to find another source of energy that would relieve us our dependence on arab oil and watch arab societies crack under their own oppresive existence. But right now it is what it is. We are there trading our money for their oil. And we are all in this trade willingly.

It is the Palestinians intolerance that oppresses them, not the Israelis. Islamic intolerance will result in its own death, over time, as the world becomes "smaller" due to technology and a growing population. The arabian peninsula is no longer the "bad part of town" on the other side of the city; but rather, it is the "trashy neighbors" living on the other side of the street. Islam must reform itself and conform to societal norms or it will be destroyed.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 02:48 PM
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I am talking about the Apostate Saudis. It shouldn't even be called "Saudi" Arabia...

We will TRADE the oil with you. Poeple who buy US goods from other countries don't require having troops in the US to supervise the production of these goods. We don't need the US doing that either. And of course we are going to raise the price...and since you can't accept that, you want to continue your war on the Mideast. That's fine. That is accepted. But then you must resign to the fact that more 9/11 type attacks are on the way then. That's the deal. You want the oil cheap? Fine. More 9/11s.

Muslims aren't intolerant of others beliefs. There is only one God, and there is one way to worship Him. He is above having children or partners. None is greater than He. That's simple. Jews and Christians can live in the Khilafa. Muslims will pay a tax called Zakat (as believers) and non-Muslims will pay an equal tax called Jizyah (as non-believers). The only difference is the name, and it's value in the eyes of God.

Israel has a right to that land? How about if the Native Americans went to the UN and demanded that the US give up the Western half of the US for them? You wouldn't do it. So, sorry Israel, no cigar.

Palestinian Mujahideen also target Miltary, like last weekend, when they blew up the Israeli checkpoint and slaughtered a bunch of Zionist soldiers, Alhamdulillah.

The reason the Arabs lost the attack on Israel, was because they didn't all get together, and couldn't work together, and it was a punishment from God saying that if there is no unity, there is no success.

Arab nations have been too busy defending against Crusaders to do anything productive, and oil makes them lazy. That will change under Caliphate. If you check your history, the old Khilafa was a world power. United we stand, divided we fall. That's the point of Khilafa. So yeah, nothing good has come lately, but it's a punishment for division.

It is not to subjugate the rest of the world...until World War I, there was always a Khilafa, and the West wasn't being subjugated. So you are wrong. THe Khilafa would be like the US, or the European Union, except instead following our lusts and greed, we would follow the law of God.

And then you said,

"Islam must reform itself and conform to societal norms or it will be destroyed."


I would rather see the US be struck with a hundred 9/11s. The beauty of Islam is that there is no surrender to anyone except the All Mighty. So while the Western people are easy to force into conformity, and easily give up their beliefs for safety, this will never happen with believers.

So if that is your view, and you refuse to budge, and insist on imposing your "way" on people who don't want it, and WILL NEVER bow to you, then you can mock, judge, and condemn all you want; you will never have peace. And that's just fine, because while you have had peace in the US for a very, very long time, the Mideast is used to this, and more experienced. I look forward to the future.


BTW: If you don't think the US economy can be brought down, you are sadly mistaken. A couple more decent sized attacks, and you will be absolutely floundering.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a "terrorist", just an ideological supporter of the resistance who wants the reestablishment of Khilafa.

[edit on 16-12-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 05:20 PM
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I thinking you're all missing a key point here. All religions/groups can have some 'bad apples'. A very important measure is how do the others in the group react to the bad ones? In the cases of Americans regarding McVeigh, abortion bombers, etc. We didn't dance in the streets, we were outraged. We caught them and either imprisioned them or executed them. And there certainly wasn't a mad rush of other Americans to join their cause.

Now apply the same test to muslims regarding their terrorists and what do we find? Some dance in the streets, some rush to also become terrorists, but the really key marker is that almost none of the 'non-terrorist muslims' even say a word in condemnation. Their silence is deafening - and therefore conveys agreement with the actions of the terrorists.

Makes it quite easy to see why so many are so willing to group most muslims under the terrorist label.



[edit on 12/16/2004 by centurion1211]



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226

So while the Western people are easy to force into conformity, and easily give up their beliefs for safety, this will never happen with believers.

. . . I look forward to the future.



Funny, that's what Hitler thought. And Krushchev, too. And Tojo.

I suppose it is in the nature of idealists to believe that they are "better" than other people. Maybe it helps shore up your onw flagging version of national/ethnic/religious pride to believe that your own folks are tougher, meaner and smarter than those stupid lazy Americans.

You talk about defending your ideals, your interests; about not budging, no matter what the cost. Do you really think you have a corner on that market?

I'm sure you think Americans are all idiots, just like George Bush. Well, just like him, the American peopel are frequently "misunderestimated."








 
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