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What I’ve Learned About Guns (Part IV - Training)& (Part V - Safety )

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posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 04:15 AM
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• Get all the training you can afford.

I've learned things just in the previous three threads. Reading can get you a long way. But, sometimes what you're looking at isn't presented in context and you fail to maximize your time/effort. So much is conveyed by an inflection or a gesture ... and you can't get that by reading a book. Physically doing things immediately after training locks "the meaning" of your efforts into place. Looking at pictures of people vacationing in the Caymans can take your mind somewhere, but it's not really like being there, is it?

Remember, you’re in class to learn … not to teach, not to impress … but, make friends with people who fit your socio-economic profile (I cannot emphasize enough, this hidden benefit). The best teachers make you think. If they’ve got enough information to get you to slightly modify what you were dead-certain previously was the ‘right way’ for you, what you paid for the class was worth it. Everybody has something to learn … and everybody has something to teach. Know the difference. Know when to speak and know when to keep your lips zipped.

Don't encourage a spouse to attend training (notice I kept that gender neutral). There are a million-bozillion reasons 'not' to. Find one in your mind and settle on that. If they want to come along, I am not recommending you discourage them. In fact, that would be a great thing (or I would have a topic other than Training for Part IV). It's just that encouraging a non-swimmer to step out into deep water sets up a certain psychological reaction ... same with guns.

• Even a broken clock is right twice a day. The following video is a pretty good collection of all the dos and don'ts.


I think he's so deep into what he does (and his pet peeves) he overlooked some of the basic turn-offs of the training environment. Things like finding yourself mixed in with a bunch of people you don't know or trust ... and they're all armed. Depending on what training you're going through, these same strangers are sweaty and stinky and ... OMG ... touching you even. LOL

Not being able to hear the way you normally do. Wearing gear you've not become accustomed to. The concussion of firearms being discharged to your left and right. People might even get in your face and yell ... with a very angry look on their's.

• Pay attention to legal instruction.

I’ve never attended a ‘quality’ training course, which failed to put emphasis on laws pertinent to the possession and use of firearms. Remember, you’re the good guy. The bad guy doesn’t care about the law. You should. Don’t believe everything you hear. Look it up. It’s all on-line. It changes from state-to-state. You’ve gotta know that too. I ran into more trouble in Hawaii than I care to remember. Had I not been a Federal Agent at the time, I would have wound up a guest in their detention facilities and lost tens of thousands of dollars worth of firearms. Professional courtesies pretty much end at the edges of the thin blue line.

• Plan to kick out a thousand bucks in ammunition costs if the class involves shooting.

This unexpected expense shuts down the wannabes. It keeps the classes free of all but the worst of the Rambo types. It’s your job to spot ‘that guy’ early on and keep your distance. The other ones ... ugly, old, dirty, stinky, sweaty, mean, impatient (with you) ... they're your friends here ( just like ATS
)

• Find … and Become A Member Of … your local gun range.

You don’t even need to own a gun … just that hearing protection I mentioned in Part II. Meet the owner. If it’s a small club, he’ll most likely be the only member of staff. Otherwise, introduce yourself to the most senior member of the staff … openly. If you’re lucky, you’ll get introduced around instead of becoming the guy everyone is suspicious of. BTW, that hot blonde … she’s usually an undercover.


• Last thoughts

The fairer sex almost always stays on-par with firearms instruction. It's not unusual for them to excel. Practical application may not work so well ... but they are there to learn. I've rarely seen a 'girl' fail unless someone was screwing with her ability to keep pace. Not uncommon at all for a guy to fail just because he's a hard-head. When the instructor steps up to train your job is to listen, learn, practice, repeat.

For God's sake ... be extra careful during training. Keep your head on a swivel. It's probably the most dangerous environment you will ever pay to enter. Do NOT trust your instructor implicitly ... have him demonstrate if you have to ... you're paying for it. Safety is the subject for tomorrow's thread. Sorry for getting ahead of myself there.
edit on 23102014 by Snarl because: Grammar

edit on 10/23/2014 by semperfortis because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 04:31 AM
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a reply to: Snarl

The weekend pistol competition at the range I used to belong to was usually won by Cathy ! Which tended to make the ICE and DEA guys grumble ... Not to her face.. Cathy if you read this keep shooting and Piss Larry off for me ! (She is a lurker)



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 04:47 AM
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a reply to: 727Sky

Cathy? I know Cathy. She's every place I've ever been. I don't play darts with her, shoot pool, or anything else that may involve a bet putting by manhood to shame. So, "Hi Cathy." Good to know you're here too.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 04:51 AM
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a reply to: Snarl

I always found women were much easier to teach than their male counterpart. Thier testosterone doesn't get in the way.

"It's probably the most dangerous environment you will ever pay to enter. "

Plaque number two that should be at every range.

Enjoying this thread..



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 05:01 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: 727Sky

Cathy? I know Cathy. She's every place I've ever been. I don't play darts with her, shoot pool, or anything else that may involve a bet putting by manhood to shame. So, "Hi Cathy." Good to know you're here too.


lol... We had a Cathy on our squad her nickname was studly. Such a nice person and deadly with a pistol. I wouldn't call her studly anywhere but on the range, handling your firearm outside of designated safety area void of ammo is an automatic DQ. She was great people and if she ever saw this post she would know, and her chances would be 1 in 10 to know who it is.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: MarlinGrace


Enjoying this thread.


Thanks, MG. This is the one most personally of interest to me. I know HardCorp has had some unique training, and I'm hoping he'll be willing to share the details of his direct experience.

This was new to me

I was trained to perform what's called a 'Rock and Lock' holster draw.

I get it, but I'd like to know a lot more of the detail ... the 'how and why', 'when and where' type stuff. I somehow doubt that's part of any commercial course I'd be invited to attend from my current employment. It also sounded quite practical yet I'm curious as to how the dangers from ricochets are minimized ... or if they're just not addressed as an item of concern.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 07:46 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: MarlinGrace


Enjoying this thread.


Thanks, MG. This is the one most personally of interest to me. I know HardCorp has had some unique training, and I'm hoping he'll be willing to share the details of his direct experience.

This was new to me

I was trained to perform what's called a 'Rock and Lock' holster draw.

I get it, but I'd like to know a lot more of the detail ... the 'how and why', 'when and where' type stuff. I somehow doubt that's part of any commercial course I'd be invited to attend from my current employment. It also sounded quite practical yet I'm curious as to how the dangers from ricochets are minimized ... or if they're just not addressed as an item of concern.


If I am not mistaken it's called rock and lock because of the holster. Some of the new kydex holsters are made that way so you can run, and nobody can just reach down and grab it out of the holster. The gun has to be rocked back to release from the holster, if you have ever used a speed holster for IPSC they have a mechanism internally that does the same.

The key to training is making it fun, the El Presidente drill is fun and fast. My fastest time before I stopped shooting was about 6 seconds. The pros are all about 4.5 seconds. Youtube has a bunch of great IPSC shooters.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: MarlinGrace
a reply to: Snarl

I always found women were much easier to teach than their male counterpart. Thier testosterone doesn't get in the way.

"It's probably the most dangerous environment you will ever pay to enter. "

Plaque number two that should be at every range.

Enjoying this thread..



Yeah, I've always heard that guys come in with a lot of bad habits they've picked up from watching too many movies, etc, and struggle to unlearn them, too macho to admit their way is "wrong", while women are more of a blank slate.

That said, the sight of my future wife attempting to qualify with the M-16 had everyone on the firing line looking for a place to hide - after her first magazine, her scorer said "No, no, don't reload, that's enough - you pass - just put the weapon down."



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 09:28 AM
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a reply to: squittles

I swear the first time my wife shot a pistol she was trying to run away while she pulled the trigger ! She ended up being a great shot with a rifle but her pistol shooting is still something she has problems with.. I think her dominate eye changes from day to day ... hahahah



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: MarlinGrace

LOL I'm not even gonna tell you what I thought I read ... and I'm glad I said nothing to this point, because I get it completely now.

Curious. Was this the type of rig that guy was wearing when he was detained proclaiming some right to carry within about a mile of 0bama maybe a couple of years back. The one they couldn't just 'take away' from him and had to ask him to hand over nicely? Anyway ... whatevahs. I'm still blushing.

I'm stuck with IWB holsters 'til I die, so I'm never going to be faster. This is good for you, because you know who's gonna be on your side. This is bad for you, because they're gonna go for you before they go for me. LOL. At least there's never a need worry about where the hand is going. I like to wear a light windbreaker and I have an aged look allowing me to pull that off on any except the hottest days of Summer.

I like that drill you mentioned. Turning 180 in the proper direction while drawing ... Good stuff MG ... and you can stop being modest. We all know.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 06:35 PM
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originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: MarlinGrace

LOL I'm not even gonna tell you what I thought I read ... and I'm glad I said nothing to this point, because I get it completely now.

Curious. Was this the type of rig that guy was wearing when he was detained proclaiming some right to carry within about a mile of 0bama maybe a couple of years back. The one they couldn't just 'take away' from him and had to ask him to hand over nicely? Anyway ... whatevahs. I'm still blushing.

I'm stuck with IWB holsters 'til I die, so I'm never going to be faster. This is good for you, because you know who's gonna be on your side. This is bad for you, because they're gonna go for you before they go for me. LOL. At least there's never a need worry about where the hand is going. I like to wear a light windbreaker and I have an aged look allowing me to pull that off on any except the hottest days of Summer.

I like that drill you mentioned. Turning 180 in the proper direction while drawing ... Good stuff MG ... and you can stop being modest. We all know.


I watched a Todd Jarrett YouTube and he had his hands down but I was taught and if I am not mistaken the IPSC qualifier book is hand up "Surrender", back to targets. Turn shoot 6 reload and shoot 6. I think it's good for quick reaction in a crisis situation to do this drill. A lot of IPSC guys do it just to practice pulling the trigger fast, but for us not under LE guide lines we have triggers from 1.5 lbs to 2 lbs. The trick to a fast trigger finger is if you're right handed, 40% grip on the right and %60 on the left. With the hand muscles flexed the finger is stiffened and can't slap the trigger shoe fast to have good splits on the timer.

Anyone who loves to shoot and has to carry should shoot IPSC or IDPA at least to learn how to handle a pistol quickly and accurately. Plus it is a boatload of fun.

I wouldn't carry my open race gun in an IPSC speed holster on the street, talk about getting in trouble, but I do like those little smiths you like for a pocket pistol. Hammerless, internal really, lightweight, 5 shot 38+p is all. I keep threatening to get the one with the Ti cylinder. 13oz ..... nice in the pocket, decent power.

For serious protection I prefer a 45ACP 1911 I have a few, the grip angle suits me over a glock. When you see what happens when you shoot a bowling pin with a 9mm versus a 45 I just can't carry a 9mm. I know the stats the 9 is just as good on paper as a 45 in one shot stops. If you ever get a chance shoot a pin with both calibers and watch the result.
With a 9mm the pin falls over with a 45 its picked up and just flies off the table.

Waiting for the next installment.

BTW no modesty I have shot many times with people that make me look sloooooooow. Check youtube for JoJo Vidanes, just wow.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 08:42 PM
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a reply to: MarlinGrace

I'm not a competition shooter ... exactly. I have shot some IDPA events, but I've declined IPSC. What I've 'heard' about IPSC (and you've mentioned it in these threads) goes against the way I train. I'm sorry to say that, because I 'get it', and I'm not knocking anyone who wants to comply with 'their' rules of conduct and control. I'd love to give it a shot, but I would make for a bad guest, and who wants to be 'that guy' from the outset?

I'm not actually sure all the IDPA 'standards' were in effect where I shot, and I say this in the hope any reader doesn't misconstrue what I've said, and make a choice of IDPA over IPSC. As a rule ... I'm simply not into competition and know very little of it. From what I've seen, IPSC competitors shoot better than IDPA. Did I redeem my earlier remarks? I hope so, because though I stand by them on principle, I meant nothing derogatory.

My 'machine' is acting flakey on my again, so I'm going to hit the reply and not lose my effort. There's more of your post I'd like to continue the conversation on.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 09:39 PM
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originally posted by: MarlinGrace

For serious protection I prefer a 45ACP 1911 I have a few, the grip angle suits me over a glock. When you see what happens when you shoot a bowling pin with a 9mm versus a 45 I just can't carry a 9mm. I know the stats the 9 is just as good on paper as a 45 in one shot stops. If you ever get a chance shoot a pin with both calibers and watch the result.
With a 9mm the pin falls over with a 45 its picked up and just flies off the table.


Id love to pick your brain and compare notes on this subject. Would you mind if we went back to the thread on ammunition? I consider the 9mm excellent training ammunition. I know that leads to a lot of reasons people opt in for carry purposes as well.

As for training with .45 ... all of mine is consistent with what I consider to be serious defense as well ... subsonic, through a can, controlled and fully auto. Anymore info than that and I'd be simply bragging. LOL I might have even earned the right to, but it has no place here. SF and FLETC presented the only courses I've attended, but I bet there are some great gray opportunities I'm not privy to.

Me, and another Class III, are retiring in the same window and will likely setup shop together. Nothing like making money doing something one enjoys. I wonder if ATS ... Nahhh!

I got a note from another member last night. I'm going to combine my thoughts on safety at the bottom of this thread and ask the FSME to modify the title. I think it's the right thing to do, and the thoughts I want to share will still be all together in one place.

-Cheers



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 04:37 AM
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What I’ve Learned About Guns (Part V - Safety)

• There's two thing you can't take back: The spoken word and a bullet.

Why did I save safety for last? Simple. There’s nothing safe about operating a firearm. It ‘should’ be the last consideration everywhere except the Politically Correct world. Your use of a firearm ‘implies’ destruction unless you’re just an idiot randomly firing rounds up into the air. Somebody must teach this in OCS, because the last words I can always recall before we went out on mission were, "Know where your team members are at all times, and watch your lanes of fire."

Guns (at least in America) are here to stay. Talking about how dangerous they are ... up front ... is just a turn-off. And, by the time you get into how cool they are, any messages about safety have become a distant memory. Every class I've taught on marksmanship ended with safety. And you know what? There was always a certain category of people who couldn't go without mentioning that. Know where they always wound up? In their own little group, assigned there by me. And you know what else? They were always the eff-ups. The last ones in the foxholes ... and the ones left behind to police up the brass.

Part V of this series is my last. I’ll keep it focused on those things my real world experience has added to my collection of ‘lessons learned’.

• I’m sure everyone always remembers to keep their finger outside the trigger guard until they’re ready to start shooting, but dammit, remember to get your finger back outside the trigger guard when you’re done.

One of my very best friends taught me this down in Panama. He went to holster his M9 with his finger inside the trigger guard. Boom!! The wound channel down his right leg and out through the bottom of his foot and combat boot was one of the worst things I’ve ever seen. In the moments following, I seriously doubted he would survive.

• Never ‘get around’ idiots with guns.

These are people you likely consider your friends. They’re probably great company in a social setting. But, something happens to people when they take physical possession of something lethal. You might want to make note of someone who drives with intentional reckless abandon (it’s a tell). No way to know what they’re doing behind your back with their firearms.

• What’s behind your target?

You are responsible for that. I shouldn’t need to say more. I would though add, when you are threatened, you develop tunnel vision and sometimes everything goes kind’a red. In court … that’s your fault … not an excuse.

• You shoot (or worse yet, kill) somebody … you live with it. It doesn’t go away.

You’ll want to write down what happened. Everything. You’ll want to have the answers to who, what, when, where, why, how, and huh? … to every little detail. All I’ve got to add to that is, “Don’t be in the wrong.” It’s still bad when you’re in the right. Ask any LEO who has been subjected to a Line Of Duty shooting investigation. The distinct probability is that you (a civilian) will not be classified a ‘hero’ … more likely just another ‘suspect’.

Wrapping this series back around to the first: (Survival). Ball ammunition (or FMJ) will likely over-penetrate. Heavy or high velocity ammunition may do the same. This was a very valuable lesson I learned in service. I promised to not go into the details of such incidents, but I want to point out the military has a very different set of rules they must abide by, which don’t apply in the real world. Don’t be under-prepared.

Somebody will be along shortly with the formal written rules of safety. I think they're up to four.


Thanks. This has been a good experience for me. I want to thank everyone who spent their time to share what they know. You folks are the best!!



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 07:24 AM
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I might add in the civilian world (forgot who told me) for every bullet fired there is a lawyer attached. You kill some idiot who attacks you for no reason other than to steal your car or pocket book... It will not matter if he has been convicted 22 times and has only been out of juvenile detention for a week.. His relatives will swear he had turned his life around and found Jesus and everything the night before.. Your life will never be the same regardless ... Killing someone affects everyone differently.. Lawyers and being able to convict someone in the news before the truth of an event comes out ... Well let's just say the old "feared for my life" is actually very true even after the smoke clears..



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 08:45 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

For serious protection I prefer a 45ACP 1911 I have a few, the grip angle suits me over a glock. When you see what happens when you shoot a bowling pin with a 9mm versus a 45 I just can't carry a 9mm. I know the stats the 9 is just as good on paper as a 45 in one shot stops. If you ever get a chance shoot a pin with both calibers and watch the result.
With a 9mm the pin falls over with a 45 its picked up and just flies off the table.


Id love to pick your brain and compare notes on this subject. Would you mind if we went back to the thread on ammunition? I consider the 9mm excellent training ammunition. I know that leads to a lot of reasons people opt in for carry purposes as well.

Not at all I love to talk any aspect of firearms and ammo. I just hard to find people that have the experience you have with real world experience. As I said I played a game, nobody shoots back. You are or were in the business of having people shoot back, there is brass involved there and its not shell casings. I do agree about training with a 9mm, the ammo is cheap and sight control is just as difficult. 9mm pops and 45 seems to bounce another reason I like 45.


As for training with .45 ... all of mine is consistent with what I consider to be serious defense as well ... subsonic, through a can, controlled and fully auto. Anymore info than that and I'd be simply bragging. LOL I might have even earned the right to, but it has no place here. SF and FLETC presented the only courses I've attended, but I bet there are some great gray opportunities I'm not privy to.

Full auto 45 through a can? lol Now I am jealous. That would be to fun.

Me, and another Class III, are retiring in the same window and will likely setup shop together. Nothing like making money doing something one enjoys. I wonder if ATS ... Nahhh!

Might I offer the Williamsburg Virginia as a retirement area. $200.00 Tax stamp for Class III or a suppression device. There is a little store operated by a ex 3 letter agency guy that does both. Small community of people mostly retire military. Great place to live. A lot of high and tights.. lol

I got a note from another member last night. I'm going to combine my thoughts on safety at the bottom of this thread and ask the FSME to modify the title. I think it's the right thing to do, and the thoughts I want to share will still be all together in one place.

-Cheers



Thanks keep up the good work.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: MarlinGrace


That would be to fun.


Believe me ... it puts a completely different spin on the El Presidente'. I'll let you borrow my trench coat too. LOL

And this guy ...

... he never took me seriously when I told him his speed was impressive, but I could get him a real job if he ended with four shots inside each round circle. Kidding aside, this young man is arguably the best hand-gunner I've ever talked to. Really nice guy, too.

ETA: The discipline to 'shoot small' is the point of my emphasis. Not everyone is fast and you shouldn't hesitate when you're going to score in competition ... but 'ending' the threat is the key to training. I assure you, these 'fast' shooters would hit that circle just as quickly if that was the only portion of a target present. Big targets can lull you into a lazy effort, which is why my favorite target is the rotating star.
edit on 24102014 by Snarl because: ETA: Clarity of thought



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 10:31 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: MarlinGrace


That would be to fun.


Believe me ... it puts a completely different spin on the El Presidente'. I'll let you borrow my trench coat too. LOL

And this guy ...

... he never took me seriously when I told him his speed was impressive, but I could get him a real job if he ended with four shots inside the round circles. Kidding aside, this young man is arguably the best hand-gunner I've ever talked to. Really nice guy, too.


And notice he uses a ironsights, very studly. 3.93 very very fast. He has one of the smoothest draws I have seen. Notice what he said "muscle memory" basically do it so many times you can do it blindfolded. Some IPSC guys when choreographing the stage, close their eyes to implant the image. Steel Challenge guys all know about muscle memory its the only way to be competitive. IPSC, IDPA, SC, USPSA, 3 gun all make you a good shooter eventually, how you handle the stress of someone shooting back in confrontation is what you do. All the competition guys talk a lot of crap. But until you have been in a scenario where someone shoots back you're still just a have fun shooter. If you can handle the stress under fire (the brass part)is another level I hope I never have to see and why I thank anyone who carries a gun for a living.

Hey no worries on the IDPA or IPSC for me IPSC is total fun factor, IPDA is more of a structured event. The seriousness is what value you place on it and use for training. I have always been the fun factor keeps you shooting and while you're having fun the repetitive skills ends up very valuable training. The army team is another that has always been great but watch out for those border patrol guys...



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: MarlinGrace

The mag change impressed me the most. I simply can't do that when it matters.

The BP recruits our best shooters right out of Basic Training. Fargin' b--tards!! If they'd use 'em for the reason they were recruited, every *American* would have a job.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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originally posted by: Snarl
a reply to: MarlinGrace

The mag change impressed me the most. I simply can't do that when it matters.

"Yes you can it's just the dreaded "P" word."

The BP recruits our best shooters right out of Basic Training. Fargin' b--tards!! If they'd use 'em for the reason they were recruited, every *American* would have a job.


LOL and minimum wage wouldn't be in question.


Ok there is a little trick that might help for a quick reload. First make sure you have done the necessary smith work to make sure the mag falls out easily, never take the gun down from line of sight, hit the mag release, if you're right handed roll your left hand about 45 degrees and look at the lower left corner of the mag well, with your right hand reach down, grab the fresh mag insert at the same time sliding your hand back around for grip, and roll you hands back to sight alignment. It's looking at the lower left corner that usually does the trick. For anything IPSC it really amounts to economy of motion, less is better and more efficient. I would think this is true on the street as well.

Of course you should have a relieved mag well, and muscle memory for mag location without looking, and as you already know the the "P" word until you're bored then do it some more.

You probably already know all this, apologies if I am out of turn. When shooting regularly I would comfortably go .9 between shots with a reload. If your mag pouches have covers and snap, change to some of those new kydex ones with a good pinch if regs allow for work.

Do you have a timer? You can learn a lot about your shooting with a timer.



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