It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Who really is Lucifer?

page: 3
5
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 01:53 PM
link   
First of all, thanks to everyone for a fascinating dialogue. I have a question. Awhile back I was involved in a conversation at a social gathering. The theme evolved into a discussion of ancient religion and one person narrated a very interesting story. She said that when the angels ( iggigi? ) rebelled against God ( Anu ) they were punished by being banished from Heaven. God ( Anu ) gave the leader of the revolt governorship of the Earth and allowed the leader to appoint 72 governors over all parts of the Earth. Unfortunately, the story teller said the name of the leader of the revolt but I don't remember it. There was a lot more to the story but I don't want to get long-winded. It sounded as though this was esoteric rather than religious. Does anyone know where I could research such a story?




posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 03:22 PM
link   

originally posted by: boomerdude
First of all, thanks to everyone for a fascinating dialogue. I have a question. Awhile back I was involved in a conversation at a social gathering. The theme evolved into a discussion of ancient religion and one person narrated a very interesting story. She said that when the angels ( iggigi? ) rebelled against God ( Anu ) they were punished by being banished from Heaven. God ( Anu ) gave the leader of the revolt governorship of the Earth and allowed the leader to appoint 72 governors over all parts of the Earth. Unfortunately, the story teller said the name of the leader of the revolt but I don't remember it. There was a lot more to the story but I don't want to get long-winded. It sounded as though this was esoteric rather than religious. Does anyone know where I could research such a story?


Read "The Second Coming of the Anti-christ", by Peter Goodgame. He covers that exact narrative. The number 72 is related to astrology and is found in the Egyptian story of the conspiracy against Osiris, and in the Kabalah. Genesis 10 does list 70 nations, so if there is any truth to the 72, then Satan appointed 70 governing demons over the 70 nations, Satan is 71 as the god of earth, and Yehwah-Elohim is 72 as the God of Israel.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 08:45 PM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


"Heillel is not an angel, but the son of an angel, who became a deified king"


According to Isaiah 14:12, this "Heylel" came from Heaven (mis'sa mayim), because he fell from there (mayim).

It says that Heylel fell from Heaven, not Shahar.
 

 

 




"Nimrod of the line of Kush, appears to be the son of the Covering Cherub"


Nimrod was the direct son of Cush, not the son of a Cherub. Nimrod is of the 13th generation of men. According to Biblical genealogy, please tell us which patriarch is the Covering Cherub in Nimrod's lineage:

Nimrod, son of
Cush, son of
Ham, son of
Noah, son of
Lamech, son of
Methuselah, son of
Enoch, son of
Jared, son of
Mahalalel, son of
Kenan, son of
Enos, son of
Seth, son of
Adam.

 

 

 




"This exact story is in Genesis 10 or 11"


No, these are two different narratives altogether. Compared:


Genesis 10 and 11:

• Location: Shinar

• Geography: Plains

• Key Figures: Nimrod, the people of Babylonia, and Yahweh.

• Event: The society built a city and began constructing a tower to be the tallest of all.

• Reason: "To make a name," meaning, to create a marvelous and well-known city.

• Result: Yahweh babbled and confused the languages,... the society halted construction of the city and tower,... and the people scattered and separated into different linguistic societies.


Isaiah 14:

• Location: Heaven and Mount Zephon

• Geography: Mountainous and Heavenly heights.

• Key Figures: Heylel, El, and Elyon.

• Event: Heylel sought to usurp the authority of El, establish his throne on Mount Zephon, and ascend to Elyon.

• Reason: A hunger for power, authority, and being acknowledged as the supreme deity.

• Result: Heylel was cast out of Heaven and laid down to the grave (Sheol, the common grave, not the fictitious Inferno of Dante's, "Divine Comedy").


The characters, locations, events, agendas, and outcomes are completely different.
 

 

 




"The commonality is that both the Covering Cherub (Shahhar the Morning Star/Light) and his son Heillel challenged the authority of the Elohim."


Shahar did nothing. Isaiah 14:12 is about Heylel and Genesis 10-11 is about Nimrod and the people of Babylonia. There are no actions attributed to Shahar.
 

 

 



Once again, Shahar is synonymous with the specific light of dawn,... not light in general. Shahar is specific to the light of dawn because "Shahar" is the Morning Star Venus.

If your reasoning is accurate, can you please show me where Shahar is applied to "light in general," rather than the "light of dawn," via the symbolism of Venus as the Morning Star?



edit on 10/24/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 10:54 PM
link   
a reply to: Sahabi

You are correct, "falling from heaven" rules out Nimrod, though there are similarities linking Nimrod and Heillel. For example, Nimrod built his tower to challenge God.

Jesus was called the son of David even though David lived generations before Jesus, so Nimrod could very well be the son of the Covering Cherib, but that is another conversation.

From my current deduction, Shahhar must be a title for Yehwah. The angels are called both morning stars and sons of Elohim. Since Yehwah is the creating member of the Elohim, it can be said that the morning stars are the sons of Yehwah Elohim. Jesus proclaimed to be the incarnation of Yehwah and is also called the "Bright Morning Star". Therefore, Yehwah the Bright Morning Star is the creator of the race of Morning Stars, including Heillel, the Covering Cherib.

How this lines up with the gentile pantheon, I dont know, but as mentioned, Jesus is both identified as THE Bright Morning Star, and the creator of all.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 11:23 PM
link   
a reply to: boomerdude

According to Canaanite religion, El and his consort Asherah / Athirat had 70 sons. These 70 sons of El are gods, not angels or demons.

In Genesis 10, 70 nations of mankind are named:

1. Gomer_________36. Jebusties
2. Magog_________37. Amorites
3. Madai__________38. Girga#es
4. Javan__________39. Hivites
5. Tubal__________40. Arkites
6. Meshek________41. Sinites
7. Tiras___________42. Arvadites
8. Ashkenaz______43. Zemarites
9. Riphath________44. Hamathites
10. Togarmah_____45. Elam
11. Elisha_________46. Ashur
12. Tarshish_______47. Arphaxad
13. Kittites________48. Lud
14. Rodanites_____49. Aram
15. Cush_________50. Uz
16. Egypt_________51. Hul
17. Put___________52. Gether
18. Canaan_______53. Meshek
19. Seba_________54. Shelah
20. Havilah_______55. Eber
21. Sabtah_______56. Peleg
22. Raamah______57. Joktan
23. Sabteka______58. Almodad
24. Sheba________59. Sheleph
25. Dedan________60. Hazarmaveth
26. Nimrod_______61. Jerah
27. Ludites_______62. Hadoram
28. Anamites______63. Uzal
29. Lehabites______64. Diklah
30. Naphtuhites____65. Obal
31. Pathrusites_____66. Abimael
32. Kasluhites______67 Sheba
33. Caphtorites_____68. Ophir
34. Sidon__________69. Havilah
35. Hittites_________70. Jobab


In Deuteronomy, the sons of El are given authority over the nations:

(Older Version from Dead Sea Scrolls)

When Elyon allotted peoples for inheritance,
When He divided up the sons of man,
He fixed the boundaries for peoples,
According to the number of the sons of El
But Yahweh’s portion is his people,
Jacob His own inheritance."

 


"When the Elyon gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

 

 

 




"She said that when the angels ( iggigi? ) rebelled against God ( Anu ) they were punished by being banished from Heaven. God ( Anu ) gave the leader of the revolt governorship of the Earth and allowed the leader to appoint 72 governors over all parts of the Earth."


I am not familiar with this interpretation.

From my knowledge, the Annunaki were gods, being the children of Anu and Ki. The Igigi were also gods, but of a younger generation, being the children of Enlil and Ninlil. The Igigi were subservient to the elder Annunaki. The Igigi rebelled against Enlil, and as a result, the Igigi were replaced by mankind, who were created by Ea/Enki.

In conceptual similarity, it may be said that the Bible's Elyon is An/Anu,... while El is the Annunaki Enlil,... while Yahweh, the son of El, is an Igigi.

In comparison, the Annunaki can be likened unto the Greek Titans,... while the Igigi can be likened unto the Greek Olympians.


edit on 10/25/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 11:58 PM
link   
a reply to: Sahabi

Its funny that you mention Deut 32:8&9. While most people choose one translation over the other (sons of God vs children of Israel), I see both translations as correct. The Hebrew is probably the original, while the LXX is an explanatory translation. The point being, that Israel was established to replace the fallen portion of the Morning Stars. Hence, the number of the children of Israel would be proportional to the number of the fallen sons of God.

Acording to psalm 82, the fallen gods/lords of the earth are the fallen angels/demons.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 02:06 AM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


"Hence, the number of the children of Israel would be proportional to the number of the fallen sons of God."


The number of sons of El is 70.
The number of nations from the children of Noah is 70.
The number of tribes from the children of Israel is 12.

12 to 70 is disproportional.
 

 

 




"The Hebrew is probably the original, while the LXX is an explanatory translation."

The version of Deuteronomy 32 mentioning, "the sons of El," is in Hebrew and is much older than the Septuagint-LXX. It can be found in the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran.
 

 

 




"Acording to psalm 82, the fallen gods/lords of the earth are the fallen angels/demons."

According to the Hebrew, verses 1, 5, and 6 of Psalm 82 have been incorrectly translated. I will correct the verses using the original Hebrew:


1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

[1. The gods stand in the congregation of El. In the midst of the gods He (El) judges.]

2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?

3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

[5. They (mankind) know nothing, neither will they understand. They walk in darkness. All the foundations of the Earth are shaken.]

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

[6. I have told you gods that you are all sons of Elyon.]

7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.


Verse 1 describes the lesser gods (elohim) gathered in heavenly congregation as El judges.

Verses 2, 3, 4, and 5 illustrate the inquiry and objections of the heavenly host (elohim) against mankind, to the judgement of El.

Verse 6 shows El's rebuttal to the heavenly host (elohim), reminding them that they are the descendants of Elyon.

Verse 7 is a rebuke by El, telling the heavenly host (elohim) that their questioning of His care, conduct, and guidance of mankind will bring their down fall.

Verse 8 closes by reaffirming that El (Elohim) is the judge of creation, and has taken mankind under his authority.


I only see the heavenly host (elohim), El (Elohim), and Elyon in this Psalm,... I do not see any angels.



edit on 10/25/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 02:36 AM
link   
a reply to: Sahabi

Angels are lesser gods. They were destined to rule, but never to be worshipped. That is how the gods/angels challenged Yehwah, by directing worship to themselved rather than the creator. This is the main difference between the Gentile legends and the biblical account. The Gentile lords wanted to be known and worshipped as gods, the bible identifies them as rebelious servants (angels).

The bible claimes that the sons of Elohim are as numerous as the stars. That is alot more than 70. The bible also claimes that 1/3 of these angels fell with Heillel, it is more likely that the 70 are elite generals under Heillel's authority. Just because 70 angels are emphasized doesnt mean that the entire population is proportional to 70. Furthermore, look at Numbers 3:50...The redemption of the remaining first born that were not redeemed by the Levite population: 22,000 of 22,273 firstborn of Israel are redeemed by the 22,000 Levites. The remaining firstborn 273 must be redeemed at a price of 5 shekels per head, totalling at 1,365 shekels. Both 273 and 1,365 are divisible by 7, yet Israel is usually associated with multiples of 12. So I dont know what the ratio was, but there does seem to be an emphasis on a select group. Perhaps 70 angels were to be replaced by 70 Israelite kings. What ever the case, Israel rejected the opportunity in 30 AD, so Jesus extended the offer to the Church.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 03:19 AM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest



Angels are lesser gods.


Contradiction:

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" - Isaiah 45:5



This is the main difference between the Gentile legends and the biblical account.


Why did the gentile legends come first, then? Was your god waiting for everyone to become deceived first? Or maybe whoever wrote that into the bible just wanted to explain away all other 'gods' from other religions.

edit on 25-10-2014 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 04:22 AM
link   
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

This is from the notes of the NET bible. A very conservative bible translation, not esoteric at all



“the sons of Israel.” The idea, perhaps, is that Israel was central to Yahweh’s purposes and all other nations were arranged and distributed according to how they related to Israel. See S. R. Driver, Deuteronomy (ICC), 355-56. For the MT יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי (bÿney yisra’el, “sons of Israel”) a Qumran fragment has “sons of God,” while the LXX reads ἀγγέλων θεοῦ (angelwn qeou, “angels of God”), presupposing בְּנֵי אֵל (bÿney ’el) or בְּנֵי אֵלִים (beney ’elim). “Sons of God” is undoubtedly the original reading; the MT and LXX have each interpreted it differently. MT assumes that the expression “sons of God” refers to Israel (cf. Hos. 1:10), while LXX has assumed that the phrase refers to the angelic heavenly assembly (Pss 29:1; 89:6; cf. as well Ps 82). The phrase is also attested in Ugaritic, where it refers to the high god El’s divine assembly. According to the latter view, which is reflected in the translation, the Lord delegated jurisdiction over the nations to his angelic host (cf. Dan. 10:13-21), while reserving for himself Israel, over whom he rules directly. For a defense of the view taken here, see M. S. Heiser, “Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God,” BSac 158 (2001): 52-74.



You might check the link to Michael Heiser, he is the most prolific writer in this area.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 10:29 AM
link   
a reply to: arpgme

"I have said you were gods but you will die like men."
"Satan is the god of this world."

The word "god" simply means "lord". A lord is a ruling party. There is a difference between lords and The Lord. Only The Lord is worthy of worship. That is why He is called the Most High.

Knowledge of Yehwah was handed down verbally from Adam, its not God's fault that the Canaanite went their own way. At the fall of Babel, the nations were divided up according to the number of fallen angels. God did not have authority to take control of those nation, so He called out His own nation to be the communicator of His word.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 02:33 PM
link   

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: boomerdude
First of all, thanks to everyone for a fascinating dialogue. I have a question. Awhile back I was involved in a conversation at a social gathering. The theme evolved into a discussion of ancient religion and one person narrated a very interesting story. She said that when the angels ( iggigi? ) rebelled against God ( Anu ) they were punished by being banished from Heaven. God ( Anu ) gave the leader of the revolt governorship of the Earth and allowed the leader to appoint 72 governors over all parts of the Earth. Unfortunately, the story teller said the name of the leader of the revolt but I don't remember it. There was a lot more to the story but I don't want to get long-winded. It sounded as though this was esoteric rather than religious. Does anyone know where I could research such a story?


Read "The Second Coming of the Anti-christ", by Peter Goodgame. He covers that exact narrative. The number 72 is related to astrology and is found in the Egyptian story of the conspiracy against Osiris, and in the Kabalah. Genesis 10 does list 70 nations, so if there is any truth to the 72, then Satan appointed 70 governing demons over the 70 nations, Satan is 71 as the god of earth, and Yehwah-Elohim is 72 as the God of Israel.


Thanks for the lead. Seems to be just what I was looking for.



posted on Oct, 25 2014 @ 04:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: boomerdude
First of all, thanks to everyone for a fascinating dialogue. I have a question. Awhile back I was involved in a conversation at a social gathering. The theme evolved into a discussion of ancient religion and one person narrated a very interesting story. She said that when the angels ( iggigi? ) rebelled against God ( Anu ) they were punished by being banished from Heaven. God ( Anu ) gave the leader of the revolt governorship of the Earth and allowed the leader to appoint 72 governors over all parts of the Earth. Unfortunately, the story teller said the name of the leader of the revolt but I don't remember it. There was a lot more to the story but I don't want to get long-winded. It sounded as though this was esoteric rather than religious. Does anyone know where I could research such a story?


There is no “true” source because this story is false extrapolation.It is definitely not in the scriptures at all nor are ANY of the stories about a "evil" spiritual being /entity Lucifer.There are MANY that falsely believe "lucifer" is the name of a spiritual being/entity.Nothing could be further from the Truth.As has already been stated(and is easy to research) the word translated lucifer (heylel) is written in the scriptures a grand total of “one” time yet a whole history of a mythical being has been extrapolated from it.

The word heylel is an adjective(light bearing) modifying a noun describing a “person”(a king of Babylon) in a “poetical” phrase.That was extrapolated that LUCIFER was an archangel( another mythical being) who rebelled against the creator God(as if that was possible) and was thrown out of heaven(a place that does not exist ) and 1/3 of the angels rebelled with him.This “lucifer” then became Satan(another mythical being..satan means adversary and is NOT a being but is the religious carnal mind of man) and the “fallen” angels became demons.

This is all religious fantasy as is the story you friend told you.Anyone with reason already “knows” that however it is IMPOSSIBLE for the religious carnal mind to “perceive” this Truth .It is in effect a dilemma because the “believer” is blinded because the “thing”(SATAN!) they believe in is the very thing(satan..the religious carnal mind) that blinds them to their false belief.

They will rattle on and on with implausible theories and frequently quoting extrapolations of their “bible” as proof yet the scriptures(nor reason) do NOT support their theories at all.The point is it absolutely futile to engage in dialogue with the religious carnal mind.It is in effect (insane) and unreasonable it will contradict itself at every turn then accuse you of lying and being “faithless” because you despise their GOD(which is themselves).

The only thing anyone can do deny ignorance is to accept ONLY reason as Truth and present only known true facts as evidence to testify.



new topics

top topics



 
5
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join