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Who really is Lucifer?

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posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 09:28 PM
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a reply to: Abednego

Hello Abednego. You have posed a fully loaded question


Lucifer is many things to many different systems. Some say he is nothing more than a mythological anthropomorphic representation of Venus. Some say an archetypal bestower of knowledge. Some say an aspect of a God-head. Some say a good god that was deposed and villainized by a tyrannical god. Some say an active and obedient angel of God, while some say a rebellious fallen angel. Some believe that he tempts mankind in obedience to God, while some say he is an adversary (satan) of God and tempts mankind in spite. Some say a demon or the embodiment of evil. Some say Lucifer is Jesus. Lucifer is many different things to many different people.




posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 09:29 PM
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a reply to: Klassified


originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Abednego
Lucifer is Enki(Ea), and was demonized by Enlil for his disobedience. He chose to protect his creation(humans), rather than let Enlil destroy them all.


Hey there Klassified. I think that you are half correct. Ea/Enki is the serpent and satan,... however, the "Lucifer" mentioned in Isaiah is Marduk, aka Baal Hadad, aka Yahweh, aka Teshub, aka Zeus, aka Jupiter.



posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 09:29 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


Lucifer Son of Dawn (Hebrew: Heillel ben shahhar), simply means "shining/howling one, begotten of light", which is translated as "morning star" in the NT.


I believe you are mistaken. In Isaiah 14:12, Helel Ben Shahar means: "Helel, son of Shahar".

Shahar is a Canaanite deity representative of the "Morning Star," which is Venus on the eastern horizon before sunrise. This deity is synonymous with the Greek deity Phosphorus.

Now we have, "Helel son of Shahar/Phosphorus/Morning Star".


As we have the "Morning Star," we also have the "Evening Star." Venus, as the evening star, sits on the western horizon after sunset. The evening star was known in the Levant as the deity Shalim, and to the Greeks as the deity Hesperus.

The Greeks treated the morning star as one deity, and the evening star as a separate deity,... although they knew that both were the planet Venus. In tale and story, Venus was separated into Phosphorus and Hesperus., but always understood, intellectually, to both be Venus. The same can be said about the Levantines regarding Shahar and Shalim. Both cultures knew the morning and evening stars to be Venus.

So now we can deduce, "Helel son of Venus."

According to Greek mythology, Venus was a prominent goddess. And through archetype and correlation, we parallel the goddess Venus to the goddesses Inanna, Ishtar, Athirat, and Asherah.

Now we deduce, "Helel son of Asherah/Athirat."

Asherah/Athirat is the consort of El.

We can now derive: "Helel, son of Asherah/Athirat and El"



edit on 10/22/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 09:30 PM
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a reply to: adjensen


The only reference in the Bible to "Lucifer" is from Isaiah, and it clearly is talking about the King of Babylon, not Satan.


Hello adjensen, long time no chat. May peace be with you

I don't think Isaiah is referring to the human King of Babylon, but rather, to Baal Hadad. This can be concluded by reading the context of the verse and correlating it with the Canaanite religion.


How you have fallen from heaven, Helel Ben Shahar! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of El; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like El Elyon.”

- Isaiah 14:12-14



Helel Ben Shahar means: "Helel, son of Shahar"

Shahar is the Canaanite god of Venus.

Venus = Inanna = Ishtar = Athirat = Asherah

Asherah/Athirat is the consort of El.

We can now derive: "Helel, son of Asherah/Athirat and El"

 


The two following phrases should be self-evident:

"I will raise my throne above the stars of El."

"I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like El Elyon."

 


Examining Isaiah 14:12-14,... we must think about which son of Asherah/Athirat has his throne on Mount Zephon,... and who wants to usurp both El and Elyon.

Now, let us examine "Mount Zaphon."

Mount Zephon is known today as Mount Aqraa. It is upon this mountain that Baal Hadad, son of El and Athirat/Asherah, established his throne and sanctuary. From this event of the Baal Cycle, we get the name/title: Baal-Zephon.



edit on 10/22/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 10:03 PM
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a reply to: Sahabi

The word "shahhar" may be related to a Canaanite god, but in the Torah, it simply means 'morning light' or 'dawn'. It doesnt necessarily refer to Venus. Isaiah was a follower of the Torah Law. That meant he worshipped Yehwah, who prohibited astrology. There is no reason why Yehwah would have been referencing a Canaanite god, and no contextual reason why Isaiah would have interpreted Yehwah's words as such.

See the consistent uses of Shahhar:

biblehub.com...



posted on Oct, 22 2014 @ 11:19 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

My brother, the religion of the Old Testament is an off-shoot of the original Canaanite religion, it is not independent of it. In fact, when one reads the Hebrew, a polytheistic pantheon is evident throughout the Old Testament.

In the Bible, we see examples of deities speaking and interacting with other deities. We have story and event parallels to the Canaanite and Sumerian religions. But most telling, is that many of the "titles" of God in the Old Testament are actually names of individual Canaanite deities.


Deuteronomy 32:8-9

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."
 


"When Elyon gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."
 


(Older Version from Dead Sea Scrolls)

When Elyon allotted peoples for inheritance,
When He divided up the sons of man,
He fixed the boundaries for peoples,
According to the number of the sons of El
But Yahweh’s portion is his people,
Jacob His own inheritance."



Isaiah 24:21-23

In that day Yahweh will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.

They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.

The moon will be dismayed, the sun ashamed; for Yahweh, of the Hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders—with great glory."



How you have fallen from heaven, Helel Ben Shahar! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of El; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like El Elyon.”

- Isaiah 14:12-14


The post above, addressed to adjensen, illustrates how Mount Zaphon correlates to Baal Hadad.

Elyon is the Most High God, who is the father of El, who is the father of Yahweh. This archetypal structure is paralleled throughout the older religions of the area:

• (Most High) Elyon, An, Anu, Alalu, Allah Al-Aliyy, Uranus, Caelus

• (God the Father) El, Enlil, Kumarbi, Cronus, Saturn

• (Son of God) Yahweh, Baal Hadad, Marduk, Teshub, Zeus, Jupiter


The correlation is found, first by referencing the Hebrew language of the Bible, and then by correlating the deities, stories, events, and attributes to the earlier, preexisting deities of the area.


edit on 10/22/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 12:29 AM
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a reply to: Sahabi

One thing to keep in mind is that in Ancient Hebrew, "Jupiter" was called "Tzedek (The Righteous)" from the root letter "TZ-D-K", which has a connection to the names "Melchitzedek" and the actually angel of Mercy who was associated with Jupiter "Tzadkiel".

Many planets associated with "Gods" are actually associated with "Angels" in the Judeo-Christian angelic tradition.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 12:50 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

Hello arpgme. Thank you very much for this pearl of knowledge, it was unknown to me and very interesting.

Above, when I referenced Elyon as Uranus,... El as Saturn,... and Yahweh as Jupiter,... I did not mean so in the planetary sense. My reference was more to the anthropomorphic mythology of the Greco-Roman deities of Caelus/Uranus (Most High),... Cronus/Jupiter (Father),... and Zeus/Jupiter (Son).



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: Sahabi

The languages are the same, but the Abrahamic faith is not related to Canaanite religion. I know that is a popular ideology in the esoteric circles today, but it simply is not true. The worship of Yehwah is at least 6,122 years old. The Canaanite religion is a bastardized distortion of the truth handed down by the Patriarchs, and is only about 5,000 years old. It was emporer Nimrod that encouraged this distortion by centering the worship around himself.

The fact remains that not once in the Torah did Shahhar refer to a gentile god. It simply meant dawn. In my line of work, I use the word Phosphorus and Phosphates alot, but I am referencing the chemical, not the Greek god. You have to take the scriptures in context.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: Sahabi

Uranus is the Greek word for heaven that is used in the New Testament, which is interchangeable with the God of Jesus. The kingdom of Heaven/Uranus=the kingdom of God.


@BelieverPriest

Resheph accompanies YHWH in the Old Testament, and Sahabi is correct the conception of God throughout the Old Testament is that of a pantheon of gods, which YHWH eventually becoming the high God. YHWH is a son of El.

This is pretty well accepted by anyone who takes a critical look at the bible. There is a very clear progression from Henotheism to Monotheism. The view that you are taking, which is the standard among most christians is not biblical



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 04:03 PM
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a reply to: zardust

Resheph means fire/destruction in Hebrew. Obviously, the Canaanites had a habit of personifying verbs to create their gods hence dawn-shahhar, destruction-resheph.

Biblical uses of Resheph:
biblehub.com...

You have to take the use of the word out of context to arrive at a Canaanite deity. This is something that the esoteric groups are happy to do.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 05:58 PM
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a reply to: zardust

Here is an interesting video concerning the gods of the bible and the transformation from henotheism to monotheism.

It talks about Asherah, Yahweh-Sabaoth (Ruler of Armies), El Shaddai and Elyon, etc.

edit on 23-10-2014 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If you want context you should be looking at the fact that many of these poems that were integrated into the OT were from pagan sources. The sons of El passages were found in Ugarit, which came before the Torah.

Also Resheph wiki:

Resheph is found in the third millennium tablets from Ebla (Tell Mardikh) as Rasap or Ra-sa-ap. He is listed as the divinity of the cities of Atanni, Gunu, Tunip, and Shechem. Rasap is also one of the chief gods of the city of Ebla having one of the four city gates named in his honor.[5]



3rd millennium.. long before Torah. This is the context of the word. The Hebrews used it knowing it was a god. This was no minor deity either, Shechem was Abrahams hangout.

The people that are saying that the OT is full of polytheism are not esoteric people as you keep asserting. These are mainstream scholars. Not Strong's concordance or evangelical apologists, but real scholars who study the real words, and supporting texts, publishing in journals.

I understand this is hard to take, as you've been told that the bible is one continuous tale of monotheism down through the ages, but that is not the case. There are competing views throughout the bible, with competing views of who/what God is. The vast majority of people in Israel worshipped multiple gods, and did things that were not kosher by post exilic judaism. The prophets declared that God did not call for sacrifices when earlier Moses claimed he did. Jacob built a stone pillar, anointed it with oil and called it the house of God, Bethel, which is also the name of a god in Israel at that time. The later law would outlaw those types of libations and building stone pillars.

There are many more examples, including Jesus overriding the judaism of the day, by declaring that his Father was not like the God of the Jews (and btw that usage of Jews is particular to the second temple brood of vipers, not all Hebrews)

"you have heard it said"-- Someone claimed that God said love your neighbor and hate your enemy(or an eye for an eye), but they heard wrong, that is not what God said, that is not how God is, I tell you love your enemy and do good to him, so that you may be like your Father in heaven.

The bible is a progression of understanding of who God is, from a polytheism to the incarnation, being the final full revelation of Gods glory.




posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 10:22 PM
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a reply to: zardust

Can you produce any evidence to support your claim of Ugaritic origins/inspiration of biblical psalms? The Hebrew faith was passed down through Abraham, who was contemporary with the Ugaritic and Proto-Canaanite languages and cultures. I would expect them to share sayings and literary devices. That alone is not "proof" of anything. One culture glorigied Yehwah, the other Ba'al. It is not unexpected for them to glorify their gods in a like manor.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 11:06 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Peace to you brother. Thank you for continuing this interesting discussion.


"The fact remains that not once in the Torah did Shahhar refer to a gentile god."


Your words are nearly true. In Job, Psalms, Songs, Amos, and specifically Isaiah 8:20, the word "Shahar" is indeed used as a poetic metaphor alluding to dawn and the bright morning.

"Shahar," as we can agree, is synonymous with the dawn, because "Shahar" is the planet Venus during its "Morning Star" phase.

In the Bible, "Shihar" is used as a descriptive adjective or time of day,... except for Isaiah 14:12. This verse is not describing a quality nor time of day, it is used as a proper noun, indicating a person, being, or deity. The evidence is in the context: "Heylel ben Shahar".

"Ben" means "son" or "son of".

So now we know that we are looking at a sentence talking about someone named "Heylel", who is the "son of" someone named "Shahar."

To continue identifying this mysterious "Heylel son of Shahar," we must look to the context of Isaiah 14:13-14.

This "Heylel son of Shahar" wants to ascend above the creation of "El", establish his own throne on Mount Zaphon, and ascend above all heights to be like "Elyon".

My dear brother, this description perfectly represents the story of Baal Hadad (Baal Zephon).
 

 

 




The Abrahamic faith is not related to Canaanite religion.

The Canaanite religion is a bastardized distortion of the truth handed down by the Patriarchs


As Abram was from Ur of Chaldees,... we can then examine the older Babylonian and Sumerian religions to determine if there are any correlations to our current discussion.

As we have deduced "Heylel ben Shahar" to be Baal Hadad, we can further equate Baal Hadad with Adad.

And through the commonalities of qualities, traits, attributes, archetypes, stories, and mythology,... we can easily and effortlessly equate this Baal Hadad and Adad to the Sumerian deity Marduk.

As in Isaiah 14:12-14, it is no coincidence that Marduk seeks to usurp Enlil (Father) and succeed An (Most High). Furthermore, Enlil is synonymous with El, and An is synonymous with Elyon.

Once again, we have come full circle to the original archetypes:

• (Most High) Elyon, An, Anu, Alalu, Allah Al-Aliyy, Caelus/Uranus

• (God the Father) El, Enlil, Kumarbi, Cronus/Saturn

• (Son of God) Yahweh, Baal Hadad, Marduk, Teshub, Zeus/Jupiter
 

 

 




the Canaanites had a habit of personifying verbs to create their gods


And this is EXACTLY what is illustrated in Isaiah 14:12-14,... the intentions and ambitions of a personified being named Heylel, who is the son of Shahar.
 

 

 




know that is a popular ideology in the esoteric circles today....

This is something that the esoteric groups are happy to do.


Our discussion has not even touched on any esoteric concepts. What we are discussing is simply academic linguistics, mythology, archeology, and comparative religion.
 

 

 




The languages are the same,...

You have to take the scriptures in context,...

You have to take the use of the word out of context to arrive at a Canaanite deity.


If any particular word is simply a word, and not alluding to a deity, then so be it. But we must indeed examine the context.

If the word in question matches a deity, and if the Biblical story surrounding the the deified word matches events from other mythologies, then we have ourself a positive match.

The archaic mistranslation of "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 is taken into context with Isaiah 14:13-14, to realize that we are addressing a being intent on usurpation and rulership, and not a description of dawn, morning, or light.

The context of the word "Heylel" (Heyl'El), and the word "ben" (son of) and the word "Shahar" (Venus in Morning Star phase).

Then, in a greater context, to compare and correlate to the religions of the Mediterranean, Levant, and Fertile Crescent.
 

 

 



And as zardust and arpgme have attested, the religion of the Old Testament began as polytheism and evolved into monotheism. All of the individual deities and their qualities were absorbed into the god-head of Yahweh. Through politics, military force, and propaganda,... the Hebrew-Israelites championed Yahweh, the son of El, the son of Elyon, above all other sons of El and gods of Canaan.



posted on Oct, 23 2014 @ 11:42 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


One culture glorigied Yehwah, the other Ba'al.


My brother, when we meticulously research the mythological stories and attributes of the religions of the Mediterranean, Levant, and Fertil Crescent, it becomes strikingly obvious that Yahweh is indeed Baal Hadad, who is also Adad, who is also Marduk, and Teshub, and Zeus.

Their powers, attributes, and qualities are similar:

1.They struggled to rule from the powers of their Grandfather unto their Fathers:
• (Elyon > El > Yahweh)
• (Elyon > El > Baal Hadad)
• (An > Enlil > Marduk) or (An > Ea > Marduk)
• (Anu > Kumarbi > Teshub)
• (Caelus > Cronus > Zeus)


2. They each defeated a serpentine deity of the sea:
• (Yahweh & Leviathan)
• (Baal & Yam)
• (Marduk & Tiamat)
• (Teshub & Illuyanka)
• (Zeus & Typhon)

3. They were affiliated with mountains or their thrones were upon them:
• Yahweh (Mount Sinai)
• Baal-Zephon (Baal of Mount Zaphon)
• El Shaddai (El of the Mountain)
• Zeus Kasios (Zeus of the Mountain [Mount Olympus])


edit on 10/23/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 12:06 AM
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a reply to: Sahabi

In the context of Isaiah, shahhar is not a personality, but an element. That element is light. By calling the shining one (heillel), the son of light (ben shahhar), God is identifying the character in question as an angel. The angels/morning-stars are creatures of light, not flesh. The same principle is used for mankind. Adam is the name of the first man, but that first man was named after the substance he was composed of...earth. So, by saying 'ben adam' you are both saying 'son of man' and 'son of the earth'.

Heillel ben shahhar, was the Covering Cherub, a son of electromagnetic radiation, not the son of a Canaanite god. The context simply isnt supportive of a Canaanite deity. As I demonstrated earlier, the Torah consistently uses shahhar to represent light.

I expect Sumerian and Canaanite accounts to mirror biblical accounts. Just because the bible was documented much later in a hard copy format, doesnt mean that it was ripped-off from earliery civilizations. My research leads me to the conclusion that earlier civilizations deviated from the oral tradition handed down from Adam. There is a common thread of similarity between the Sumerians, Canaanites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks, etc. These similarities link ALL earthly cultures....BUT, the Hebrew Torah, as preserved in the Masoretic Texts, are for the MOST part phonetically UNCHANGED...and I can prove that. The mythologies are fluid and inconsistent, the METERED Bible is unchanged.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 01:58 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


The context simply isnt supportive of a Canaanite deity.


Isaiah's inclusion of "Helel" and "Shahar" is supportive of the Canaanite religion.

According to the ancient Ugaritic texts of Ras Shamra, Helel was indeed a Canaanite deity who sought to usurp the authority of El.

Shahar was indeed a Canaanite deity representing Venus, in the phase of Morning Star.

Baal Hadad was indeed a son of El and Venus/Shahar/Asherah, who sought to usurp El's authority, succeed Elyon, and establish a throne on Mount Zephon. Isaiah 14:12-14 illustrates this perfectly.
 

 

 




In the context of Isaiah, shahhar is not a personality, but an element. That element is light. By calling the shining one (heillel), the son of light (ben shahhar), God is identifying the character in question as an angel.


The Hebrew words for "Light" are typically derived from the root "Nun-Hey-Resh" (N-H-R), such as "Neharah", "Nehir", and "Nahar". This is similar to Arabic's word for light, being, "Nur".

Shahar is synonymous with the specific light of dawn, not light in general. Shahar is specific to the light of dawn because "Shahar" is the Morning Star Venus.

If your reasoning is accurate, can you please show me where Shahar is applied to "light in general," rather than the "light of dawn"? Can you please show me where Shahar is correlated to any angel beyond the usage of Isaiah 14:12?
 

 

 




the Hebrew Torah, as preserved in the Masoretic Texts, are for the MOST part phonetically UNCHANGED...and I can prove that. The mythologies are fluid and inconsistent, the METERED Bible is unchanged.


Which Bible are we talking about? Because there are some well-known differing versions:

Samaritan Pentateuch

Jerusalem Talmud (Talmud Yerushalmi)

Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli)


As it became standardized through politics, I assume we are discussing the Babylonian Talmud?

It is interesting to note, that the Samaritans claim that the exiled Jews in Babylonia returned with a different book, i.e., the Babylonian Talmud.

A Babylonian Talmud,... developed in Babylon,... which features undertones and references that point towards the Sumerian/Canaanite pantheon,....



edit on 10/24/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 09:00 AM
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If that is the case, where these names are real and not just some ancient observation of solar system events, such as Venus becoming a comet and going from Goddess or Benign to Medussa, all over the world, such as the Thunderbolt Project and Electric Universe explains with plasma discharge events, caused by changes in the bodies overhead.

Because to me, Venus as Goodness and Love AND then Venus as Satan or evil, is explaining a cosmic event.

However, to put these into real embodiment, the only thing I can think of is Leaders, like our current crop of politicians, who think they're gods, they proclaim, I am Christ, meaning penial awakened, but dark hat awakening is nothing and they don't realize that just puts you in a room with demon types but your heart frequency or Love and Goodness behavior frequency is the thing that actually determines what floor you see the people on, higher floor with Love, lower floor with selfish dominating ruthless behavior.

So, Im thinking if these guys are "real" and not just Venus and cosmic events, that these would be the old world political power figures jostling each other for supremacy.

Rothschild's and Rockerfellers are said to come from the leadership of Ra in ancient Egypt.

But the actual leaders and the various faces of dominating criminals that have over run earth, doesn't really matter that much to me, because as people wake up and change their inner landscape and frequency and awareness and overcome the metaphoric darkness inside, they are not lucifer or fallen but they become themselves and children of God/Goodness.



posted on Oct, 24 2014 @ 12:56 PM
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a reply to: Sahabi

I must apologize for my narrow mindedness (to you, Abednego, and Zardust). It appears that you are correct, Heillel is not an angel, but the son of an angel, who became a deified king. This exact story is in Genesis 10 or 11. Nimrod of the line of Kush, appears to be the son of the Covering Cherub (who became the Satan). The commonality is that both the Covering Cherub (Shahhar the Morning Star/Light) and his son Heillel challenged the authority of the Elohim.

Look at Genesis 3. God promises His own son as the Messiah, and foretells a false messiah from the line of the serpent.

In this instant, the bible and Ugaritic legends do harmonize.

On a side note, the Masoretic Text containes psalms and prophectic poems that show a heptatic syllable structure. I believe these metered texts have been perserved down to the letter. The metered codex is what stands out to me. So far, I know of Psalm 90, Genesis 5-7, Isaiah 52-53, Daniel 9, Zephaniah 1-2, Mary's Magnificat in the gospells, Ephesians 1, Jude 1 and Revelation 1 to be metered texts. The metering is not limited to these books, but that is what I am currently aware of.




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