Lawsuit Accusing Led Zeppelin of "Stairway" Theft, Proceeds.

a reply to: blackcatmagic

Who says that in the jam sessions that occurred on tour, that Jimmy Page didn't write that riff? Or that both didn't come up with it together? Seems like a case of he said vs he said. No clear winner, and the guy with the better attorneys will win.

Of course Page is known to have blatantly stolen riffs (and outright songs) from long past artists...so that's not gonna look good if this ever goes to court.

originally posted by: randyvs
Out of all the accusations of plagiarism early on, none have ever stuck.
And this is by far the most remote. Some dead guys wigger family is
making claims he obviously never saw fit to make himself. I bet they've
even convinced themselves they have a case.

Oh? Perhaps you'd like to sing along with the following tune...
...while you're checking out the items on this page:
Music Times

Argue the Spirit connection if you like, but Zep was pretty blatent. Oh, and Dazed and Confused? Add it to the list of artists that they had to acknowledge later on.

In June 2010, Holmes filed a lawsuit against Jimmy Page for copyright infringement in United States District Court, claiming Page knowingly copied his work.[13]

November 2012's release of Celebration Day (The Led Zeppelin Reunion Show at the O2) credits "Dazed and Confused" as written by Jimmy Page inspired by Jake Holmes.

On the CD and vinyl re-releases of the debut album in June 2014, the songwriting credits on the CD or vinyl state "Dazed and Confused"; Page - inspired by Jake Holmes. Jake Holmes

Actually, here's an interesting article as well...I'd forgotten a bunch of this:
Link

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I never said no one came close Johnny. I chose my words carefully
in anticipation. The right word for these acknowledgements in
the more amicable view is emulate. They emulated their inspirations
like Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson. It was all about the blues,
but plagiarism? Nah! Such a nasty word.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

It was all about the blues, but plagiarism? Nah! Such a nasty word.

When it becomes all about the money...lots of out of court settlements many years too late...then plagiarism is the right word. It's about acknowledging someone else's work at the very least. When I write, I have to cite my sources, and it's not like I'm making money at it.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I don't think they would have fought so grudgingly against
all of this if they felt they were wrong.
Where would any of the songs in question be without
Led Zeppelin?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Jimmy the Thief wouldn't steal another's music for his own personal gain now would he...

There's a lot of false accusations going on above in this thread.

Down by Blackwaterside (also known as Blackwaterside, Blackwater Side and Black Waterside) is a traditional folk song, provenance and author unknown, although it is likely to have originated near the River Blackwater, Ulster.[1] The song has been covered by numerous artists including Isla Cameron, Anne Briggs, Bert Jansch, Sandy Denny, Show of Hands, Oysterband, the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, particularly during the folk music boom in Britain in the 1960s.

source: About the song Blackwaterside

"Black Mountain Side" was inspired by a traditional Irish folk song called "Down by Blackwaterside". The guitar arrangement closely follows Bert Jansch's version of that song, recorded on his 1966 album Jack Orion. This arrangement was learnt by Al Stewart, who followed Jansch's gigs closely, and who, in turn, taught it to Jimmy Page, who was a session musician for Stewart's debut album.

source: About the song Black Mountain Side

--You cannot steal a traditional folk song!


From the Led Zeppelin I liner:

3. YOU SHOOK ME 6:28
(Willie Dixon & J.B. Lenoir; Arc Music/Hoochie Coochie Music, BMI.)

8. I CAN’T QUIT YOU BABY 4:42
(Willie Dixon; Hoochie Coochie Music. Administered by Bug, BMI.)

6. BLACK MOUNTAIN SIDE 2:05
(Jimmy Page; Superhype Publishing, Inc. All rights administered by WB Music Corp., ASCAP.)

The reason Willie Dixon is mentioned is because he's the author of the two songs above. The reason Jimmy Page is listed as author of Black Mountain Side is because it was his version of the traditional folk song. Yes, it resembles the Jansch version, but he did not steal the song from Bert Jansch. Again, you give credit where credit is due.

I agree the original Dazed and Confused is a song by Jake Holmes, but the music that Led Zeppelin did, and the lyrics, are nowhere near the original song. You cannot copyright the title of a song. What Led Zep recorded was basically the Yardbirds version, and the creation of both Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page.

a reply to: Petros312

That's the key. Aren't most folk songs from the early era in public domain?

Here's something. Henry Thomas sang a song called Bull Doze Blues. (I can't say for a fact whether or not he wrote/composed it)

Canned Heat came out with a more famous song called Going Up The Country.

The melody is the same, the lyrics are different. But I think they got away with it because the recordings are so old and there probably weren't any copyright issues with it.



Thomas was an amazing musician and he's very underrated.

a reply to: randyvs

Out of all the accusations of plagiarism early on, none have ever stuck.

Clearly you're not well up on Led Zep history, Randy.

The intro and chord structure of Paul Weller's The changingman is virtually identical to ELO's 10538 Overture, but I've never heard of a court case over it.

There's only so many notes and chord progressions to go around, this kind of thing is bound to happen. Perhaps we should all accept it and forget all this legal wrangling.

a reply to: Astyanax

Can you site one case for me. I still haven't been shown that.
Please bring me up to speed as a 40 year fan. No brag just fact.

I'll take all ya on!

No one deserves one dime of Led Zeppelin porcedes but the
members and family of

LED ZEPPELIN

And if this corrupt court decides in favor of this tweaker family?
They may want to consider living in an igloo in alaska.
So spend some money on a nice parka!

a reply to: randyvs

Will out-of-court settlements do?

'Boogie with Stu' from Led Zeppelin III is credited "Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham/Ian Stewart/Mrs. Valens" because it is a rip-off of Ritchie Valens' Ooh My Head.

Other songs have recently had their accredition changed because of legal threats.

There's plenty more where that came from. See here and here.

But I'm not interested in all that. Me, I trust my ears. I listen to The Lemon Song and I hear Howlin' Wolf's Killing Floor. I listen to Black Mountainside and I hear Bert Jansch's Black Waterside. I listen to Whole Lotta Love and I hear Willie Dixon's You Need Love. Here, listen to them yourself, and see if you hear what I hear.



Actually, listening to those again makes me reconsider my earlier comment. What Led Zeppelin stole wasn't dross. Diamonds in the rough would be a better description.

But that doesn't matter. I'd never have heard of Howlin' Wolf or Bert Jansch or Willie Dixon if it hadn't been for Led Zeppelin. Thank you most kindly, Jimmy, Robert, John Paul and John. it wasn't just your own music you turned me on to.

originally posted by: randyvs
Please bring me up to speed as a 40 year fan.
...And if this corrupt court decides in favor of this tweaker family?

Pretty subjective talk...this has nothing to do with whether or not you like Zep, it speaks to 'doing the right thing'.

And just for the record, I have no Zep on my Desert Island list...but I do have Spirit.

a reply to: Astyanax

Will out-of-court settlements do?

Negative, I know all about those!

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

For the record Johnny you can have em.

a reply to: randyvs

I know all about those!

Then what's your point? If you know about these cases, you cannot be in any doubt that Led Zeppelin plagiarized a lot of their material. If there had not been substance to the allegations, you may be sure that Jimmy 'Led Wallet' Page, a notorious miser and the controller of Led Zeppelin's business machine, would have refused to part with a penny.

Never mind that: did you listen to the tracks I posted? Go on, tell me Led Zeppelin didn't steal that music.

originally posted by: Astyanax
...did you listen to the tracks I posted? Go on, tell me Led Zeppelin didn't steal that music.

originally posted by: Astyanax
...I'm not interested in all that. Me, I trust my ears. [1] I listen to The Lemon Song and I hear Howlin' Wolf's Killing Floor. [2] I listen to Black Mountainside and I hear Bert Jansch's Black Waterside. [3] I listen to Whole Lotta Love and I hear Willie Dixon's You Need Love. Here, listen to them yourself, and see if you hear what I hear.

You don't understand the difference between taking a musical theme vs. actually lifting a composition.When a song "sounds" similar to another song it does not necessarily qualify as plagiarism.

1. The guitar and bass in the Howlin Wolf song "Killing Floor" is a) a common blues scale, and b) not the same riff being played in The Lemon Song. It's only similar, not an exact lifting of the music. The lyric "I should have quit you babe a long time ago" was lifted but this is only one line of the song. Just like the people who think that because Stairway to Heaven contains four chords that follow similarly in one part of the song Taurus, despite many other parts of the Led Zeppelin song that are nothing like the other song, it means the band stole the song. This is a biased analysis.

2. You refuse to believe that you cannot steal a traditional folk song, no matter how you play it. If you believe the "sound" of the song is like the Jansch version, you're right! But this is the musical STYLE of a guitar part. You cannot copyright a style.

3. If you think the music in the Muddy Waters song "You need Love" is the same as the Led Zepp song "Whole Lotta Love" you have no ear for music. Again, the only thing Led Zepp did was take the theme of the song, not the lyrics to the whole song. Early blues songs generally share many of the same lyrics.


I really believe people generally do not understand the difference between being influenced by one song and taking its basic musical theme to create a new song vs. copying the actual composition. It is no crime of plagiarism to listen to a song, like the song, and then create another song that is similar in ways but that did not exactly copy the same composition. Led Zep admits in interviews that they had plenty of influences that include early blues artists.

ever hear this?

originally posted by: CardiffGiant
ever hear this?

Again, what the Gallows Pole by Led Zeppelin does is take the main theme of the lyrics from the original Leadbelly song. The melody line of the lyrics sung by Robert Plant is completely different. The music Led Zep did is also completely different.

This is another example of the members of Led Zeppelin taking the theme of an early blues song and changing it to something that's practically a different song. That's being influenced by someone's idea, which is not stealing. If when you have revamped a song you have a completely different composition, then it's your song.

a reply to: Petros312

Nope. You're just making a special plea because Led Zeppelin are like gods to you and can do no wrong. Same with Randy.

a reply to: Astyanax

Never mind that: did you listen to the tracks I posted? Go on, tell me Led Zeppelin didn't steal that music.

Led Zeppelin didn't steal that music.

Killing floor I would site as inspiration for the Lemon Song at the
most. They're not the same song at all and if they settled out of
court, then no ruling of plagiarism was handed down.
You asked if out of court settlements would do? I said no.
It is just as easy to believe they were emulating, the artist they
admired. It's not like they would ever have a hard time, coming
up with material to replace any of those songs. And they weren't
ignorant or novice to the recording business by any means. So it
seems to me they felt the songs that were released were theirs.

Black Mountainside, I think Petro covers that one perfectly.

Whole Lotta love, Dixon should be honored and given credit as a co writer.
But that in no way constitutes plagiarism.

And I think Led Zeppelin was phenomenal and I like their music
as a part of this realm. But you should know better then to say
they're like Gods to me Asty.