Is there an organized effort to undermine the Aliens and UFOs forum?

For the record, if I didn't think there "was something going on that we don't understand" with the UFO phenomena I wouldn't be so fascinated by it. That doesn't mean I'm going to buy the claptrap spewed by someone who is charismatic (very few are) and feeding my bias toward believing something weird is happening without solid evidence that can pass my personal critical thought analysis.

In other words, bias confirmation (including my own) does not equal evidence, fact or reality. It's simply someone telling what you want to hear. 99% of them, in my experience (which is pretty deep), claim authority that won't hold up to scrutiny at the simplest level.

originally posted by: duaneology
I'm new here so please correct me if I'm way off base. I just seem to notice an active effort by a number of ATS posters to discredit and belittle anything and everything posted here along with this sections regular contributors.

I'm not going to link them and give the agitators more attention but I've seen it in the Stanton Friedman thread and many others. Not only here but all throughout ATS I read disparaging remarks about this forum and those who post here.

It makes me feel like an attempt is being made to have the topic viewed as fringe and flaky as possible.

Your thoughts?

i want to think that no 1 in this forum visits here just to get things debunked. Im not regular poster, i check out the forum daily, but im not replying on topics if i don`t have anything to add or contribute to the conversation.

The way i see it, people around here have followed and read about UFO`s many years or decades. They also know what kind of hoaxes lie around internet and of course majority understands the psychological influence of the UFO phenomena and Human nature to react to it.

I`m personallly long time follower and big fan of the phenomena and still will be, years to come

a reply to: duaneology

Undermine? How about posting videos or photographs of rock formations on the moon or Mars claiming to be animals, cannons, insects, or Egyptian-like carvings or monuments? Groups of balloons carried by the wind that are shape-shifting alien craft? Birds mistaken for UFOs? Bugs zipping past a video camera at close range that are UFOs traveling at incredible speeds? "UFOs" that coincidentally flash navigation type of lighting exactly as our planes? It's these type of things that undermine this "serious" phenomena, right? How are members that naively and blindly accept silliness such as this as evidence of alien beings to be taken seriously? Especially if all they do is look at a video or photo and their immediate conclusion is that it's not ours with very little logical or rational thought? It must be the overwhelming desire for this belief in UFO/aliens to be true that clouds that logical thought. That's where skeptics come into play.

Skeptics and a skeptical attitude is extremely important to this forum. I typically don't comment in threads of personal cases. But if someone posts about a well known case and supports that case, I want to challenge them as how they personally came to their conclusion. Their conclusion beyond being fed information from biased sources. To see how far they actual research these cases or do they just follow in line with what they read or hear with no personal investigation. You have generation after generation of the telling of some of these stories. Some that completely leave out portions to help fit into this exciting UFO/alien tale. The phenomena is filled with fabrication, outright lies, scams, and every other type of dishonest BS.

There has been zero undeniable evidence of aliens visiting Earth, existing in our galaxy, or the universe. Because of this, the method is to begin with rational and logical explanations. Not the other way around.

Is there an organized effort to undermine the Aliens and UFOs forum?

Yes, and it's become very obvious too, also a bit tedious.

I made this thread (shh it was mainly to do with the UFO forum too )

ATS and other sites with its online debunkers

originally posted by: OrionsGem

originally posted by: PhoenixOD

originally posted by: OrionsGem

originally posted by: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
This "tonality" witnessed here is happening within the broader UFO community at large. The overwhelming firehose of hoaxed, misinterpreted, and outright misrepresented videos of "UFO's" coming from YouTube, combined with a few sites dedicated exclusively to creating UFO hoaxes, has created an atmosphere of irritation and extreme distrust.

This seemed to start with the worldwide Alien/UFO hoax of Project Serpo (initiated by the people now with Project Camelot). That was the turning point of attitude in UFO-related topics.

I understand where you're coming from and that very well may be the case but honestly speaking, if those are the only, or rather primary sources of information being examined, then the bigger picture overall surrounding this phenomena in question is completely being missed out on.

Making the public at large "miss out" on the "bigger picture" Is the reason forums like this are flooded with hoaxed cases.

OG

So the op thinks that people responding to UFO threads are shills and you think that people making the posts are shills. lol

Seriosuly if there was any real good evidence out thee no amount of disinformation would be able to cover it up.

LOL yes using your logic there is no cover up at all. Move along nothing to see here. Right?

It would do you good not to tell ME what I think, unless you are a psychic in which case your wasting time on this thread and should be making money like Ms. Cleo once did. Its a very lucrative business I hear.

OG

No mind tricks needed as you stated :

Making the public at large "miss out" on the "bigger picture" Is the reason forums like this are flooded with hoaxed cases.

Pretending to be an authority on UFO's and writing books on the subject is very lucrative to.

Blind belief without good evidence or accusing people of being part of a coverup just because they can see beyond the BS on youtube is not denying ignorance, its promoting it.

a reply to: OrionsGem
I wouldnt call 8 or so cases "countless", and these cases also had other evidence (ie DNA of the person found on the accused's belongings)...

Besides, the existence of the subject wasnt in question. The alien parable would be more akin to trying to convince a court that you witnessed someone stab Mr X, yet you cant provide any evidence that Mr X ever existed, except a blurry photo that could be of anyone.

a reply to: duaneology

Critical thinking has universal rules such as analysis, the examination of evidence, ascertaining the credibility of testimony and so forth. Since critical thinkers use similar techniques, it can create the illusion of organization. In other words, no, there is no organized attempt to undermine this forum. The members who post hoax videos or speculate wildly undermine themselves and the struggling science of UFOlogy. The more you believe, the less you will learn.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Willtell
The op is right. Though it may not be organized but you never know.
What it is is a mentality.

In any non linear doctrine such as forms of mysticism, religion and now UFOlogy there always are haters and non believers (if you may) and extremely intolerant people who think their intellect is supreme over any non material philosophy…even though their intellect can't explain any of the mysteries of life yet they condemn others who offer extraordinary non intellectual non sense beliefs that explain reality.

The people who say “ if I don’t see it I don’t believe it.

You see this in people like Bill Maher on his views of religion and Dawkins and his militant atheist disciples.

This kind of mentality often goes after UFOlogy as well just as hard as many go after religion.

UFOlogy would be a bigger target if it were more mainstream.

There are many like this on ATS

Categorizing people as "haters" because they don't accept someone's word as fact is pretty strong. Sure, there are debunkers, but skeptics, who simply want some evidence before they accept claims of fact, get dumped into the same category as debunkers on these sites. If you want to present UFOs or your religious views as beliefs, that's fine. However, if you make claims of fact, why don't you expect people to ask for testable evidence?

I suspect if you eliminated the True Believers (those who expect their claims to be accepted as facts absent an iota of testable evidence), the number of debunkers would be greatly reduced. The problem lies on both ends of the spectrum.

I said haters as a separate group who spill over into intolerance and abuse and have a deliberate task of mocking…that’s why I brought up the analogy of the militant atheists who admit they have a job to abuse beliefs.

I didn’t say legitimate skeptics or just people who want to legitimately challenge…nothing wrong with that.

originally posted by: duaneology
I just seem to notice an active effort by a number of ATS posters to discredit and belittle anything and everything posted here along with this sections regular contributors.

I think there is far more of a problem with a lack of an organised effort to fight back in a constructive and polite manner against some of the more egregious hoaxes and misrepresentations that have circulated within ufology for years than any organised effort undermine the Aliens and UFOs forum.

Ufology has never been very good at policing itself. Anyone that points out a hoax risks getting labelled a "debunker" or "disinformation agent".

Heck, I've hesitated to post details on ATS of quite a few UFO hoaxes for this reason - among others.

There is nothing BAD about being skeptical, in fact, it will actually benefit you believers as well.

Why?

Because it's an undeniable fact that 99% of cases are hoaxes, scams, lies or simply misinterpretation of something more ordinary. Only by being skeptical you can indeed find the "good" cases and separate them from this huge mass of garbage.
But just believing everything you're served or what you see on YT etc. you will hardly "find the truth". You will just play right into the hands of scammers and hoaxers which ultimately will damage the entire field.

The stone-old argument of "shills" etc. gets boring and is nothing but ridiculous.

You can post a skeptical input in whatever thread here, rest assured it doesn't take long someone comes in and calls you a "shill", a "paid one" even. UFOs, paranormal etc. are controversial topics, so you need to expect people who are skeptical. I am sorry, for some, "believing" is simply not enough. Generalizing all skeptics as having some ill/evil intent is also not ok. If anything, the UFO field and human psychology in general entirely justifies skepticism.

Addition: Browsing for some more stuff for my kindle I found this book by Carl Sagan on Amazon. It's supposed to be something like a bible for the skeptics, basically debunking EVERYTHING and ANYTHING, from UFOs to the paranormal to religion etc. Why the book has gotten excellent reviews and I call myself a skeptic I am not interested in the book. Because the extreme skeptical side in my opinion is as wrong as the side of those believers who simply believe everything. People should look at things unbiased and leave options open, for BOTH sides. No, not every sighting is a genuine UFO and not every report of a ghost is true...but we're also not living in a pure materialist world where science can explain everything.

a reply to: Onslaught2996

Why with everything that everyone in the world has access to..has not one viable piece of evidence ever come forth?

Control of what we see nowadays on the web is complete. [p]Just like television. Not one real bit of evidence gets through. Stuff I saw when I was a kid on the news is not anywhere on the internet. I thought the governments and Aleens were in cahoots about disclosure?

To demonstrate the control censors exhibit (for instance0, search Youtube for footage of US airstrikes on Kobani. So far I cannot find one video of bombs coming down or the actual concussions, fireballs and shockwaves. All the footage is cut to show just the pillars of smoke rising after the explosion.Thats some censorship considering the number of amateurs uploading videos from there. What we see is edited video cut off or news reports showing the same edited video.

a reply to: duaneology


Hi If you look at my posts I am the sceptic of sceptic's on here I joined ATS because of a comment made on another site I joined because I do believe out there, other life must exist it's a numbers thing BUT at the same time if I see something in a video or a picture that with my 35 years of taking pictures is not what is claimed then I will point it out and give an explanation and some proof to back it up. Now if I see something that I think is 100% the real deal then again I will back that up as well.

That's what ATS is about that's why the motto is DENY IGNORANCE if you want a pat on the back for every video and picture you put up and for everyone to AUTOMATICALLY agree with you there are plenty of other web sites!

The problems have already been covered in previous posts in this thread, some on here will believe EVERYTHING ufo related but when I see comments that show the poster does not even understand what happens in the world around them it can be frustrating, simple everyday things like perspective or line of site or how the direction an object is traveling can affect it's apparent speed.

We have lots of members on here that are keen photographers like me or semi pro or even pro and we use our expertise and YEARS of setting up and taking pictures to really look at images and video's presented.

I will give you a couple of examples the so called black knight satellite comes up on here it seems every few months one of the classic images used is this.



Now it is a white cover so one member asked how is it black in the pictures so I did this as an example.

This is a sheet of white paper with the picture taken to expose for the background.



It appears black, now if I expose for the paper



It appears white!

Some members have posted youtube videos of so called Morphing ufo's when all it is is the camera hunting for focus and here is a quick video to show what that is like.



As can clearly be seen the bugs change shape from being out of focus to in focus.

The problem is even the best smartphones with all there claims of working well in low light DON'T and the bulk of youtube videos are from phones.

Even when using my 16mp DSLR at night I use MANUAL focus even although my camera has one of the best systems for live focus in still & video mode.

We also have a keen membership that are constantly looking at the sky some with professional grade equipment have a look here if you have not already.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I to post on there here is a quick example.



Andromeda can be seen top right of the picture.

So we have many members in all time zones of the world that KNOW what they are doing when it comes to taking pictures/video of the night sky, some with top grade equipment yet not once have they caught anything in an image that can't be explained, strange don't you think.

a reply to: IsaacKoi

Ufology has never been very good at policing itself. Anyone that points out a hoax risks getting labelled a "debunker" or "disinformation agent".

Heck, I've hesitated to post details on ATS of quite a few UFO hoaxes for this reason - among others.

Not me, when I see it, I call it like I see it.

Being a little more aware is a certain kind of hell…

People will name call regardless of which perceived "side" they place you on. if you debunk you "ruin their thread". If you claim you believe then you are delusional. Same with the paranormal forum, 911, Chemtrails, Secret underground Nazi bases at the North Pole…lol.

Imo, there is a concentrated effort to bury any truth beneath tons of manure. There is some good stuff out there, too. Like your threads.

Haven't see one lately, have I?

a reply to: duaneology

Your perceptions are correct. And here's the irony: These shills, debunkers and deniers know for a fact UFOs/ETs are real, or they wouldn't be arguing so furiously against them!

It's all about power and control. And crashed/stored/back-engineered UFOs represent a level of High Tech that could upset the Balance-of-Power on the planet. Or so they argue.

And No, it doesn't make much sense. The U.S. has the TR-3B, or a gravity-cancelling triangle craft since 1990, and is continually tinkering and upgrading them. TPTB - and some heavy-handed Mods here - will argue forever that they don't exist. Period. But they DO exist, even if TPTB keep them stored overseas.

And the final irony about the TR-3B is that, despite it operating with a form of anti-gravity, none of it has been transferred to NASA. So we still pay billions in launch-costs to break free of gravity, piddle out contracts to space-taxi companies with glitchy craft only partially tested once a year, and "gift" the Russians $60 MILLION a seat to get our astronauts to and from the ISS.

This is what happens when secrets are held too long. Even secrets under that blanket scare-tactic: National Security. Trust me, all the best Intel Agencies in the world know for a fact we have an anti-gravity triangle we fly around. Some of these foreign countries have or are working on their own anti-grav spacecraft. (Per FOIA docs I've seen at DIA, Russia got to the moon before we did with Apollo. And some say Russia's got one of our TR-3Bs.)

So all these debunkers/deniers/shills/liars must think they are doing noble work to "protect the exclusive interests of the U.S." But they have their own, sometimes conflicting Agendas - which make them look foolish so furiously arguing against ET-craft and ETs. With an educated population in a high-standard civilization like the U.S., TPTB trying to keep a lid on the existence of extra-terrestrials on/around Earth is an exercise in futility. And it seriously damages the government's already-shaky credibility to puff and bluster and holler over something the entire population knows really exists.

originally posted by: MKMoniker
a reply to: duaneology

The U.S. has the TR-3B, or a gravity-cancelling triangle craft since 1990, .

Any thing that flies could be called a gravity canceller then !

originally posted by: MKMoniker
a reply to: duaneology

Your perceptions are correct. And here's the irony: These shills, debunkers and deniers know for a fact UFOs/ETs are real, or they wouldn't be arguing so furiously against them!

You left out "unbelievers", "blasphemers", and "heretics".

The real irony here is how in the very first line of your post you so effectively [and inadvertently] illustrate what is truly undermining the Aliens and UFOs forum.

a reply to: wmd_2008

"Any thing that flies could be called a gravity canceller then !"

The articles I've read about the TR-3B STRESS that it doesn't use true anti-gravity, but a "gravity-canceller" that negates about 90% of gravity. It can fly straight up for lift-off - no launchpad, no super-expensive chemical fuel.

Although I agree people need to do their research about controversial topics, "officially denied" topics (like UFOs and ETs) have a sliding scale when it comes to "absolute proof." To me, the best UFO witnesses are pilots, since they know the atmospheric environment best of all, and are quick to recognize something out-of-place - and to marvel at a technology that can produce flying-craft with capabilities far beyond our own. Yet even their testimony is pooh-poohed by the debunker crowd.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413901408&sr=1-1&keywords=Pilots+and+Gen erals+go+on+the+record+about+UFOs
"UFOS: GENERALS, PILOTS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS GO ON THE RECORD"

So all of us "UFO believers" are left with is looking for corroboration, finding articles and authors with both technical details and "insider" knowledge, and knowing that the government is lying with yet another cover-up.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413901697&sr=1-1&keywords=timothy+good +books
EARTH: AN ALIEN ENTERPRISE: THE SHOCKING TRUTH BEHIND THE GREATEST COVER-UP IN HUMAN HISTORY

a reply to: OrionsGem

I personally could not care less if Project Serpo was real or fake.

Is that why you find asking for verifiable evidence or some kind of proof a laughing matter?

Because you don't want truth, you just want your beliefs to be verified like so many others on here that jump onto any and just every YouTube video with UFO in the title and then derail many threads themselves with their ignorance and label knowledgeable posters as shills.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
The overwhelming firehose of hoaxed, misinterpreted, and outright misrepresented videos of "UFO's" coming from YouTube, combined with a few sites dedicated exclusively to creating UFO hoaxes, has created an atmosphere of irritation and extreme distrust.

As you may know SkepticOverlord, I have posted a couple of small threads over the years about possible ways to address the "firehose of hoaxed, misinterpreted, and outright misrepresented videos" that you mention.

The material I have included here on ATS has included experimenting in 2007-2008 with posting extracts from my database on infamous UFO videos, and in 2010 posting a thread entitled "How do you kill an alien zombie? (Edit to add : This title involves a metaphor explained in the OP)" and in 2011 posting a thread entitled Visual guide to (HOAX) forum : UFO and Alien photos and videos.

I am now nearly ready to post a considerably longer thread addressing this topic, but have been having some issues with ATS recently which I hope you or Springer can address. As I mentioned in the threads at the links below, the relevant issues are:
(1) An inability to link to useful resources on the OpenMinds.tv website.
(2) A problem selecting images when posting ATS links on Facebook.

The person behind another well-known UFO forum has contacted me to suggest I start posting my material there. I'd prefer to stay on ATS but at the moment am wondering what to do.

a reply to: OrionsGem

There is no other proof to the murder other than 1 witness.

other than a dead body.

If there was no body then there would be no murder trial based on a witness going to authorities and saying I saw a murder.

Only with hard evidence can a murder trial be put forth.