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Is there an organized effort to undermine the Aliens and UFOs forum?

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posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 06:52 AM
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originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Tangerine

It is not a case of proving what will not lend itself to proof. It is really about trying to see what the most coherent hypothesis is. It is ok to say that we don't know for sure, but some people like to go further than that and see what hypothesis works best; which hypothesis is the best fit for the evidence. I am not a zealot, although I have a habit of speaking very directly. All I am try to do is to show that the ETH is the best fit for the evidence. Other theories fall short of the facts. Forget about proof. We are a long way from it.


The best fit for the "evidence" is FM.

Magic.

Prove me wrong, and don't bother demanding proof... it's not forthcoming.
edit on 29-1-2015 by draknoir2 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 06:54 AM
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originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: EnPassant
EnPassant?
Have you ever experienced "alien abduction" or any of this stuff that the subjects of the people that you are citing describe experiencing, or seeing?
Thanks, have a good afternoon.



No, never got abducted - not to my knowledge at least!


This proves that they have the ability to erase all memory of the abduction.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 07:11 AM
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originally posted by: EnPassant


Well there you go again! You are asserting.


I am merely asserting my right to use common sense. What I said was based on how I experience the world to be. There is no point in endlessly entertaining exotic notions about what could be - not when they are not based on what we know.


Since when is an alien conspiracy to abduct humans, something you do not "know" nor have you experienced, common sense and not an exotic notion?


You keep asserting that those who have such experiences do so in a cultural vacuum, and because of this any common "themes" that happen to emerge constitute proof of alien abduction. The fact is, and yes, I said FACT, that they occur in a thick atmosphere of pop culture contamination which is especially pervasive in the US, and exported abroad via the media, especially the American film industry. We coined the term Flying Saucer. We are home to the standard to which all other UFO crashes are compared as well as the first publicized case of "alien abduction". We produced arguably the biggest blockbuster film on the subject in history. You would be hard pressed to find a US citizen who is unfamiliar with the term "alien abduction" or the general theme thereof.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 07:48 AM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: ZetaRediculian
Yes they did. Read what I said. I said before they became COMMON in America. Flying saucers were reported in Europe before the wild west.


How about citing some evidence that backs up that claim?



originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Tangerine

As I keep saying over and over again, demands for proof are not justified at this point. Please stop continually asking for proof. The only real discussion that can be had at this point is what hypothesis makes the best sense of things. Please stop asking for proof all the time, it is not forthcoming.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 01:23 PM
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a reply to: draknoir2



You keep asserting that those who have such experiences do so in a cultural vacuum, and because of this any common "themes" that happen to emerge constitute proof of alien abduction.


I never said that. I argued that cultural influences don't create the image of the grey. I brought attention to the Valensole case that happened only MONTHS after Barney Hill described the grey alien. I have argued using common sense - yes, common sense goes a long way here - that cultural imagery is not as potent as some make it out to be, otherwise people would be getting abducted by Spock and seeing Christopher Lee as Dracula coming through the bed room walls. They'd be imagining Mickey Mouse sliding down a light beam into their bed rooms. These things don't happen. COMMON SENSE and a little thought will tell you that the argument about cultural influences is weak in terms of explaining what is being reported.
At best cultural imagery taints things but there is no evidence that it can provide an entire narrative such as is described by the abductees. These narratives are repeated over and over again; car stalls, bright lights, beings, medical exam...and so on. If cultural imagery was responsible different people would dress things differently according to their cultural conditioning. But the abduction narratives and tediously similar. COMMON SENSE will tell you that cultural conditioning is not likely to produce this repetitive narrative. The narrative began with abductees, not films or books. Certainly not in such quantities that would have people all over the place imagining the were abducted.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 01:27 PM
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a reply to: draknoir2



Since when is an alien conspiracy to abduct humans, something you do not "know" nor have you experienced, common sense and not an exotic notion?


I seriously doubt that people give more than 2 second's thought to my posts. Anyhow, I never said an alien conspiracy to abduct humans was simply common sense. I said that various details of the arguments lend themselves to common sense analysis. See my post above. It's not rocket science.
edit on 29-1-2015 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant



I never said that. I argued that cultural influences don't create the image of the grey. I brought attention to the Valensole case that happened only MONTHS after Barney Hill described the grey alien.


the hills only reported seeing 'greys' after they had been hypnotised - their conscious memories of their abductors were more human like

i'd recommend looking at some older material on the subject - possibly something like 'the mothman prophecies' by john keel or 'passport to magonia' by jacques vallee

if you think all accounts involve 'grey aliens' you are probably reading books that have been selectively compiled



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 01:48 PM
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a reply to: draknoir2

The abduction narrative began with early cases such as Villas boas and the Hill's case. Films got their descriptions of the greys from the abduction narrative, not the other way round.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 01:49 PM
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originally posted by: aynock
a reply to: EnPassant


I never said that. I argued that cultural influences don't create the image of the grey. I brought attention to the Valensole case that happened only MONTHS after Barney Hill described the grey alien.

the hills only reported seeing 'greys' after they had been hypnotised - their conscious memories of their abductors were more human like

i'd recommend looking at some older material on the subject - possibly something like 'the mothman prophecies' by john keel or 'passport to magonia' by jacques vallee
if you think all accounts involve 'grey aliens' you are probably reading books that have been selectively compiled


But the fact is that they DID eventually describe the grey and their description is backed up by the Valensole case.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant



I seriously doubt that people give more than 2 second's thought to my posts.


On the contrary, I think your posts are evidence of someone who has thought deeply about these subjects. You stand up for your ideas and that's no bad thing is it? We should always acknowledge that some 70 years of speculation have yielded little and we're none the wiser despite some excellent minds applying themselves to the anomalous.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant


that cultural imagery is not as potent as some make it out to be, otherwise people would be getting abducted by Spock and seeing Christopher Lee as Dracula coming through the bed room walls. They'd be imagining Mickey Mouse sliding down a light beam into their bed rooms. These things don't happen. COMMON SENSE and a little thought will tell you that the argument about cultural influences is weak in terms of explaining what is being reported.


"Cultural imagery" is quite apparent in the popularity of UFO books and UFO documentaries. Shows like Ancient Aliens UFO hunters are the source of the imagery. I have been watching these shows since the 70s at least which led directly to the "Close Encounters" movie. There is so much of this material flooding the market that I am stumped by your "COMMON SENSE and a little thought" comments. You can even see the evolution of the grey aliens starting with the Hill case. There is little doubt that this plays a major role in the phenomenon. I really don't see how you can deny this.


At best cultural imagery taints things but there is no evidence that it can provide an entire narrative such as is described by the abductees. These narratives are repeated over and over again; car stalls, bright lights, beings, medical exam...and so on.
if these are physical events, you need physical evidence. No way around this. Much of the narratives are provide by abduction researchers that use hypnosis to recover memories which is useless for determining reality. That you keep repeating information without any source and attempt to apply "Information Theory" without quantifying any of this really says that you are just repeating lore and helps support that this entire narrative is built on nothing but cultural contamination. In fact, you are that very evidence you say does not exist. Without physical evidence and only stories from multiple outlets, there is no way to rule out a mythology. Mythologies have been around since people.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:07 PM
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originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: draknoir2



You keep asserting that those who have such experiences do so in a cultural vacuum, and because of this any common "themes" that happen to emerge constitute proof of alien abduction.


I never said that.


Yeah, you did.

www.abovetopsecret.com...




The consistency in abduction reports is strong evidence. Before the main themes in abductions became known they were established by people like Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs; people independently reported things they could no have heard of before or have been contaminated with from the media. If people keep reporting the same things they are likely to be true because they could not have heard them from someone else.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:08 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant



I seriously doubt that people give more than 2 second's thought to my posts.

I am starting to get there. Without any source material to back anything you are saying, it really is becoming a pointless argument. Its an argument by assertion. That's obvious.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant

what about the vilas-boas case? no greys reported there - i could list lots of examples with pretty much every size shape and colour of abductor/ufo occupant featuring in the accounts

here's a very early one:


"While they were thus engaged I was enabled to inspect them as well. As I have already stated, they were seven feet in height and very slender. I noticed, further, that their hands were quite small and delicate, and that their fingers were without nails. Their feet, however, were nearly twice as long as those of an ordinary man, though they were narrow, and the toes were also long and slender. I noticed, too, that they were able to use their feet and toes much the same as a monkey; in fact, they appeared to have much better use of their feet than their hands. I presently discovered that this was probably a provision of nature. As one of then came close to me I reached out to touch him, and placing my hand under his elbow pressed gently upward, and lo and behold I lifted him from the ground with scarcely an effort. I should judge that the specific gravity of the creature was less than an ounce. It was then that I observed him try to grasp the earth with his toes to prevent my lifting him. You can readily understand that their slight weight made such a provision necessary, or they might be blown away."

"They were without any sort of clothing, but were covered with a natural growth hard to describe; it was not hair, neither was it like feathers, but it was as soft as silk to the touch, and their skin was like velvet. Their faces and heads were without hair, the ears were very small, and the nose had the appearance of polished ivory, while the eyes were large and lustrous. The mouth, however, was small, and it seemed to me that they were without teeth. That and other things led me to believe that they neither ate nor drank, and that life was sustained by some sort of gas. Each of them had swung under the left arm a bag to which was attached a nozzle, and every little while one or the other would place the nozzle on his mouth, at which time I heard a sound of escaping gas. It was much the same sound as is produced by a person blowing up a football."
OF INDESCRIBABLE BEAUTY

"From the description I give I do not want you to get the idea that these creatures were hideous. In appearance they were markedly the contrary. They were possessed of a strange and indescribable beauty. I can express myself in no other way. They were graceful to a degree, and more divinely beautiful than anything I ever beheld."

"The strangest part of the story is yet to come. It is the lights they carried. Each held to his hand something about the size of a hen's egg. Upon holding them up and partly opening the hand, these substances emitted the most remarkable, intense and penetrating light one can imagine. Notwithstanding its intensity it had no unpleasant effect upon our eyes, and we found we could gaze directly at it. It seemed to me to be some sort of luminous mineral, though they had complete control of it."

"Finally they became tired of examining us and our horse and buggy, and then one of them, at a signal from one who appeared to be the leader, attempted to lift me, probably with the intention of carrying me away. Although I made not the slightest resistance he could not move me, and finally the three of them tried it without the slightest success. They appeared to have no muscular power outside of being able to move their own limbs."
STRANGE AIRSHIP

"Well, after trying in vain to move either of us they turned in the direction of the Woodbridge canal, near which we were, and as they flashed their lights towards the bridge we beheld a startling sight. There, resting in the air about twenty feet above the water, was an immense airship. It was 150 feet in length at least, though probably not over twenty feet in diameter at the widest part. It was pointed at both ends, and outside of a large rudder there was no visible machinery. The three walked rapidly toward the ship, not as you or I walk, but with a swaying motion, their feet only touching the ground at intervals of about fifteen feet. We followed them as rapidly as possible, and reached the bridge as they were about to embark. With a little spring they rose to the machine, opened a door in the side, and disappeared within. I do not know of what the affair was built, but just before it started I struck it with a rock and it gave no sound. It went through the air very rapidly and expanded and contracted with a muscular motion, and was soon out of sight."


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posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: aynock

I used the Boas case to show how the basic abduction narrative emerged, not the description of the greys.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:17 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant


But the fact is that they DID eventually describe the grey and their description is backed up by the Valensole case.

This is where you need to lay out an actual case by providing some links and actual documentation. Repeating something you may or may not have heard or read from some book is just repeating lore and not making your case. Asserting things is asserting things.



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: aynock

I used the Boas case to show how the basic abduction narrative emerged, not the description of the greys.



But the fact is that they DID eventually describe the grey and their description is backed up by the Valensole case.

again, it is really hard to pin down exactly what you are trying to say. You seem to have everything figured out so why not put it out there? Make your case by providing some sources and show how you are using "Information Theory" to draw your conclusions. I am all for someone that can quantify this information
edit on 29-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:48 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: EnPassant


I seriously doubt that people give more than 2 second's thought to my posts.

On the contrary, I think your posts are evidence of someone who has thought deeply about these subjects. You stand up for your ideas and that's no bad thing is it? We should always acknowledge that some 70 years of speculation have yielded little and we're none the wiser despite some excellent minds applying themselves to the anomalous.


Thank you again Kandinsky. I appreciate the attention you have given to my posts. My conviction is rooted in things I have witnessed myself and is not simply 'religious' zeal.

I'll finish with some food for thought. We human beings are part of a whole organic system. Animals and humans are similar in many respects; we eat similar food, we have similar internal organs, we have evolved from primates that evolved from fish. The human system in the broadest sense of the word goes beyond humanity and is part of the whole system of life. Even animals have some human emotions and vice versa. Human spirits have an obviously human nature to them in this broad sense. It is all one organic system.

As I mentioned before, I have seen these beings (greys) and one of the most salient features about them is their unearthliness. They don't have an organic appearance to them and they don't seem plugged into the whole organic system of things. This is very apparent. They are not human in this organic sense even thought they are still humanoid.

In some ways animals might be closer to humanity than these beings. They just don't look like they are from here even if they are interdimensional beings or spirits. They have a cool, deep, psychic and highly intellectual aura about them. They ARE organic in their own terms (as Striber indicates) but it is not the familiar human organic appearance that humans have. Strieber goes a long way towards describing the general feel of these beings and he is very close. A lot of people dismiss Strieber because he has become a bit scatter brained by the whole thing but who wouldn't? Even though he is all over the place I think he did have real experiences along the way.

So, there are my final(?) words on this thread. I hope they are of some use to you.
edit on 29-1-2015 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: EnPassant


So, there are my final(?) words on this thread. I hope they are of some use to you.

before you go, can you provide some sources and the quantified information and statistics you said you have? Thanks in advance.


My claim is based on common sense and an understanding of basic scientific and mathematical principles. Information theory shows that you can't get more information out of something than is in it. For example, if an image is compressed using software, information is lost and cannot be retrieved. The information in the real narrative must be as complex as the perceived one if it is to generate that narrative. This is basic information theory.

I really would like to know how this relates. Thanks again.

Information theory is a branch of applied mathematics, electrical engineering, and computer science involving the quantification of information. Information theory was developed by Claude E. Shannon to find fundamental limits on signal processing operations such as compressing data and on reliably storing and communicating data. Since its inception it has broadened to find applications in many other areas, including statistical inference, natural language processing, cryptography, neurobiology,[1] the evolution[2] and function[3] of molecular codes, model selection in ecology,[4] thermal physics,[5] quantum computing, linguistics, plagiarism detection,[6] pattern recognition, anomaly detection and other forms of data analysis.

edit on 29-1-2015 by ZetaRediculian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2015 @ 03:22 PM
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a reply to: ZetaRediculian
The various links to landing traces, electromagnetic burns from these craft etc. are known to you so there is no need for me to go through the tedium of providing links that have already been provided for you on previous threads.

Computing is based on mathematics. So is information theory. It is not possible to get information out of a domain if it does not reside in that domain in the first place. A quadratic equation can map onto a range, which could be a graph on paper. The graph on paper cannot reveal information that is not contained in the equation. The equation is a condensed formula for the graph but it contains all the information that in can generate in the graph. This information is contained in the symbolic notation of the equation. The graph may seem to contain a greater QUANTITY of information because it may have millions of points but quantity is not the same as complexity.

If the perceived abduction narrative is generated by a real narrative that real narrative must be as complex as the thing it generates. In other words, the richness of the perceived narrative originates in the real narrative. But, in real terms, I believe that they are much the same thing. That is essentially what I am arguing.

edit on 29-1-2015 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-1-2015 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)




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