Is there an organized effort to undermine the Aliens and UFOs forum?

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: EnPassant

Sure, I was a student of Zen, I don't remember any teaching that said to notice them enough to decide that they are "Aliens".

So if you have never been abducted by aliens, and you have never had any sort of experiences that are like those of these "abductees" that you stand beside so strongly, how can you know what you are talking about?

You just take their word for it that it's "Aliens".

I find it hard to understand you in any other way than that you wish to believe in "Aliens" and how they are behind all of this subterfuge with 'abductions', and that's your bottom line.

Essentially, it's a religious belief based on wishing (for whatever reason). I suspect that if some ET believers wish long enough and hard enough without evidence and invest their self-credibility in it (let alone their credibility to others), they convince themselves that they've had experiences much like someone believes that Jesus or Mary appeared to them. Interestingly, Krishna doesn't appear to Catholics and Mary doesn't appear to HIndus, at least not insofar as a I know.

a reply to: Tangerine

How do you explain Terrence McKenna's experiences with Ketamine? He and others who took Ketamine claim to encounter that which McKenna called machine elves, beings with apparent intelligence, purpose and a world of their own. The people experimenting with this drug apparently visited this "world" repeatedly. Was that an objective reality? When the effects wore off, the users maintained the conviction that this world and the machine elves were real and that the drug simply allowed access to them.

Probably cultural imagery dressing up real things. But the abduction scenario is different; all the abductees keep seeing the same thing. If it was cultural imagery they would all, most likely, see different things. The beings perceived are almost always greys or Nordics. Cultural imagery would provide a much wider variety than this.

We simply don't know how long an illusory narrative can be sustained. Your claim that if the perceived narrative is developed and complex then so too must be the real narrative is not based on testable evidence. How do you explain developed and complex dreams? How do you explain that which people experienced using Persinger's helmet?

My claim is based on common sense and an understanding of basic scientific and mathematical principles. Information theory shows that you can't get more information out of something than is in it. For example, if an image is compressed using software, information is lost and cannot be retrieved. The information in the real narrative must be as complex as the perceived one if it is to generate that narrative. This is basic information theory.

Among the possibilities is encounters with interdimensional entities (paranormal), temporal lobe epilepsy, the release of natural chemicals in the body in response to trauma, delusions, mental illness, outright fabrication,

Epilepsy does not stall car engines. The release of natural chemicals does not lead to electromagnetic burns from the perceived craft. They are not delusions because there is physical evidence - burns on the skin, just mentioned, landing traces etc. Not mental illness either, the abductees are sane. Not fabrication. They are not lying, not the real ones, at least.

As for your claim that cultural imagery does not have such a powerful effect on the mind, otherwise people would be seeing King Kong and getting abducted by Spock, you simply don't know that. Can you explain why ancients claimed abduction by faeries and not greys? Can you explain why modern people claim abduction by greys and not faeries?

Faeries are almost identical to greys - slanted eyes, long spindly arms. They might be the same thing. If they are, cultural conditioning as an explanation for the appearance of the greys goes out the____window. (I'm trying to write 'window' but the word won't come up on my post.)

You have the tendency to reach conclusions in the absence of evidence. May I suggest that you do so because certainty is more comforting to you than uncertainty? May I further suggest that it is possible that some people who have traumatic events with the unknown prefer the certainty of ETs abducting them to the uncertainty of an experience they can't begin to understand?

You may suggest these things. But my interest is in finding the best argument or hypothesis.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Tangerine

How do you explain Terrence McKenna's experiences with Ketamine?

I love you man but lets get our entheogens correct! N,N-Dimethyltryptamine produces those effects

Ketamine (INN) is a medication used mainly for starting and maintaining anesthesia. Other uses include sedation in intensive care, as a pain killer, as treatment of bronchospasm, as a treatment for complex regional pain syndrome and as an antidepressant. It induces a trance like state while providing pain relief, sedation, and memory loss.[2] Heart function, breathing and airway reflexes generally remain functional.[2]

Common side effects include a number of psychological reactions as the medication wears.[3] This may include agitation, confusion and psychosis among others.[3][4] Elevated blood pressure and muscle tremors are relatively common, while low blood pressure and a decreasing in breathing is less so.[3][4] Spasms of the larynx may rarely occur.[3]

YUCK!
en.wikipedia.org...

"Machine Elves"[edit]

One common feature of the halluginogenic experience caused by N,N-Dimethyltryptamine are hallucinations of humanoid like beings, characterised as being otherworldly. The terms Machine Elf was coined by ethnobotanist Terence McKenna for the experience, who also used the terms fractal elves, or self-transforming machine elves.[92][93]

en.wikipedia.org...

Dang, I knew you were going to say that. You're right, it's N-Dimethyltryptamine. If I refer to it in the future as N and people ask for the full name, will you promise to provide it?

For the sake of argument, do we know they were hallucinations? Could not N have allowed access to their very real world?

a reply to: Tangerine
Well the reason I use the full name is because the short name wont post here. for good reason! Its a substance that has spawned off a whole other cultural phenomenon that has its own mythology and bad science. ATS is not a place for the drug culture to propagate. I support that but it makes real discussions challenging.

For the sake of argument, do we know they were hallucinations? Could not N have allowed access to their very real world?

yes. that's the debate among those folks. There are definitely people who are very credentialed that entertain that idea. Strassman for one. James Kent has a different view tripzine.com...

Well there you go again! You are asserting.

I am merely asserting my right to use common sense. What I said was based on how I experience the world to be. There is no point in endlessly entertaining exotic notions about what could be - not when they are not based on what we know.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Tangerine
Well the reason I use the full name is because the short name wont post here. for good reason! Its a substance that has spawned off a whole other cultural phenomenon that has its own mythology and bad science. ATS is not a place for the drug culture to propagate. I support that but it makes real discussions challenging.

For the sake of argument, do we know they were hallucinations? Could not N have allowed access to their very real world?

yes. that's the debate among those folks. There are definitely people who are very credentialed that entertain that idea. Strassman for one. James Kent has a different view tripzine.com...

I'm glad you posted the full name. I'm just unhappy that it's difficult to remember. Thanks for the links.

Fact is flying saucers and abducting aliens are as American as apple pie and baseball, and have been since the forties. A constantly reinforced folklore, hopelessly ingrained in the public psyche.

a reply to: draknoir2

Flying saucers happened in Europe long before they became common in America. There are reports from all over Europe that suggest abduction before it happened in America. In 1974/5 I read of a case of abduction, in a newspaper, outside America. We thought it was hilarious at the time because he claimed he had sex with an alien. I see it differently now.

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Tangerine

As I keep saying over and over again, demands for proof are not justified at this point. Please stop continually asking for proof. The only real discussion that can be had at this point is what hypothesis makes the best sense of things. Please stop asking for proof all the time, it is not forthcoming.

But you usually don't present your arguments as hypotheses. Most often, you present them as claims of fact. Every time you do that, I promise that someone is going to ask you for testable evidence. Even in cases in which you say that ETs are the best hypothesis you don't present any evidence to support that claim.

originally posted by: EnPassant

Well there you go again! You are asserting.

I am merely asserting my right to use common sense. What I said was based on how I experience the world to be. There is no point in endlessly entertaining exotic notions about what could be - not when they are not based on what we know.

Your assertions on what "we know" and what constitutes "endlessly entertaining exotic notions about what could be" is just insulting. You seem to want to assert your beliefs, experiences and what you consider knowledge into everyone else's beliefs and experiences. There seems to be one view that you will accept and that is yours. imho.

a reply to: Tangerine
you can just go with something generic like "certain drug that cant be named" or something like that. I will allow that

a reply to: EnPassant

Flying saucers happened in Europe long before they became common in America.

No they didn't.

There are reports from all over Europe that suggest abduction before it happened in America.

No there aren't.

In 1974/5 I read of a case of abduction, in a newspaper, outside America. We thought it was hilarious at the time because he claimed he had sex with an alien. I see it differently now.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: EnPassant

Well there you go again! You are asserting.

I am merely asserting my right to use common sense. What I said was based on how I experience the world to be. There is no point in endlessly entertaining exotic notions about what could be - not when they are not based on what we know.

Your assertions on what "we know" and what constitutes "endlessly entertaining exotic notions about what could be" is just insulting. You seem to want to assert your beliefs, experiences and what you consider knowledge into everyone else's beliefs and experiences. There seems to be one view that you will accept and that is yours. imho.

You can entertain notions about what could be up to a point but most of the 'could bes' that are presented here have less to back them up than ETH. Besides, you cannot make a hypothesis out of 'could bes'. The could bes are conflicting with each other and won't unify into a meaningful whole. More so, they are usually not congruent with the facts; There could be interdimensional beings generating an illusion in people's minds but how do illusions in the mind leave landing traces or leave electromagnetic burns on people's skin?

a reply to: ZetaRediculian
Yes they did. Read what I said. I said before they became COMMON in America. Flying saucers were reported in Europe before the wild west.

a reply to: EnPassant

You can entertain notions about what could be up to a point but most of the 'could bes' that are presented here have less to back them up than ETH.

That is false.

Besides, you cannot make a hypothesis out of 'could bes'. The could bes are conflicting with each other and won't unify into a meaningful whole. More so, they are usually not congruent with the facts;

that is also false.

There could be interdimensional beings generating an illusion in people's minds but how do illusions in the mind leave landing traces or leave electromagnetic burns on people's skin?

short answer, they don't. I have never seen a solid case or any case of "electromagnetic burns on people's skin". do you have an actual reference to one of these cases?

a reply to: EnPassant

Yes they did. Read what I said. I said before they became COMMON in America. Flying saucers were reported in Europe before the wild west.

No they didn't. I read what you said and its still false. Unless you have an actual source.

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: ZetaRediculian
Yes they did. Read what I said. I said before they became COMMON in America. Flying saucers were reported in Europe before the wild west.

How about citing some evidence that backs up that claim?

To say that there is a concerted effort here to debunk any topic here at ATS is a pretty serious charge. Do you have any kind of evidence to back this theory up?

Part of what makes our community such a great place is the ability of everyone to express their own views and ideas - that's what denying ignorance is all about. To claim that someone is intentionally spreading disinformation or torpedoing a topic just because they didn't agree with the OP is not fair, and certainly not ATS-like.

With all due respect my friend, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even when it doesn't agree or support yours.

Please don't feel as if I'm attacking you, I'm not at all. Just trying to express the belief that true evidence must stand up to the utmost scrutiny and skepticism before even being considered as fact. That's the scientific principle that has made ATS a well respected community.

Deny ignorance

a reply to: EnPassant

My claim is based on common sense and an understanding of basic scientific and mathematical principles. Information theory shows that you can't get more information out of something than is in it. For example, if an image is compressed using software, information is lost and cannot be retrieved. The information in the real narrative must be as complex as the perceived one if it is to generate that narrative. This is basic information theory.

If an image is compressed and than expanded again, information that is lost is generated by an algorithm to fill in the missing information. And this is exactly what our brains do when we are missing information. It makes up this information. That is exactly what happens when people undergo hypnosis to recover memories. This is what happens every time you see an ambiguous image. This is what happens during sensory deprivation. This is how mythologies are propagated. Our brains are actively filling in information constantly. This has been demonstrated over and over again. Its such a basic concept in psychology that its mystifying how people cant apply it here. It's not "common sense". Its something that happens in such abundance that we have no awareness that we do it. In fact, that is what you are doing with your constant assertions! You are making up the information where none exists.

imho, Its obvious that you are trying to apply some kind of psychology to the phenomenon without having the faintest clue with what you are talking about and also looks like you are falling short on your understanding of "information theory". For instance, you have no quantified information whatsoever that you can reference.

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Tangerine

How do you explain Terrence McKenna's experiences with Ketamine? He and others who took Ketamine claim to encounter that which McKenna called machine elves, beings with apparent intelligence, purpose and a world of their own. The people experimenting with this drug apparently visited this "world" repeatedly. Was that an objective reality? When the effects wore off, the users maintained the conviction that this world and the machine elves were real and that the drug simply allowed access to them.

Probably cultural imagery dressing up real things. But the abduction scenario is different; all the abductees keep seeing the same thing. If it was cultural imagery they would all, most likely, see different things. The beings perceived are almost always greys or Nordics. Cultural imagery would provide a much wider variety than this.

We simply don't know how long an illusory narrative can be sustained. Your claim that if the perceived narrative is developed and complex then so too must be the real narrative is not based on testable evidence. How do you explain developed and complex dreams? How do you explain that which people experienced using Persinger's helmet?

My claim is based on common sense and an understanding of basic scientific and mathematical principles. Information theory shows that you can't get more information out of something than is in it. For example, if an image is compressed using software, information is lost and cannot be retrieved. The information in the real narrative must be as complex as the perceived one if it is to generate that narrative. This is basic information theory.

Among the possibilities is encounters with interdimensional entities (paranormal), temporal lobe epilepsy, the release of natural chemicals in the body in response to trauma, delusions, mental illness, outright fabrication,

Epilepsy does not stall car engines. The release of natural chemicals does not lead to electromagnetic burns from the perceived craft. They are not delusions because there is physical evidence - burns on the skin, just mentioned, landing traces etc. Not mental illness either, the abductees are sane. Not fabrication. They are not lying, not the real ones, at least.

As for your claim that cultural imagery does not have such a powerful effect on the mind, otherwise people would be seeing King Kong and getting abducted by Spock, you simply don't know that. Can you explain why ancients claimed abduction by faeries and not greys? Can you explain why modern people claim abduction by greys and not faeries?

Faeries are almost identical to greys - slanted eyes, long spindly arms. They might be the same thing. If they are, cultural conditioning as an explanation for the appearance of the greys goes out the____window. (I'm trying to write 'window' but the word won't come up on my post.)

You have the tendency to reach conclusions in the absence of evidence. May I suggest that you do so because certainty is more comforting to you than uncertainty? May I further suggest that it is possible that some people who have traumatic events with the unknown prefer the certainty of ETs abducting them to the uncertainty of an experience they can't begin to understand?

You may suggest these things. But my interest is in finding the best argument or hypothesis.

No, all the self-described abductees, worldwide, do not see the same thing. Even in the US they don't all see the same thing.

You have made no attempt to explain the phenomena produced by dimethyltryptamine (; Zeta) and how this is the same or different from the ET experience. What's your take on this?

Tell me how information theory applies to storytelling, for example?

We don't know that the cars actually stalled. Even if they did, they may have stalled for a number of reasons. Perhaps faeries stalled the cars. Perhaps an electrical short stalled the cars and popular culture planted in the minds of the people in the car that which was supposed to follow: ie. alien abduction. Perhaps the cars entered a moving interdimensional portal and gasoline doesn't work to propel vehicles in that dimension. Perhaps a government project (psy ops) stalled the cars and manufactured the reported memory via the use of hypnosis or some other means. I have a stalled car story of my own that was quite spectacular and frightening. No apparent aliens involved.

There were huge variations in the appearance and size of faeries in reports. Some were reported to take the form of horses. Some were hideous ogres. Others were larger than human-size beings of "light". The Tinkerbelle appearance most people associate with faeries is a result of Victorian era illustrations that became popularized much in the same way that the "grey" image on the cover of the Whitley Strieber book became imprinted on the public consciousness. Perhaps you can provide a link to a faerie encounter report in which the faerie was described as looking like a grey. I would be interested. It is possible and, although I have read a great deal about faeries, I do not recall such a report. But, if that's the case, what rules out the possibility that your ETs are earthbound faeries?

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Tangerine

As I keep saying over and over again, demands for proof are not justified at this point. Please stop continually asking for proof. The only real discussion that can be had at this point is what hypothesis makes the best sense of things. Please stop asking for proof all the time, it is not forthcoming.

Has it occurred to you that the "hypothesis" which makes the best sense of things to you just might seem irrational to others?