Is there an organized effort to undermine the Aliens and UFOs forum?

a reply to: EnPassant

If you're going to explain high weirdness by arguing that experiencers are in a subjective state of altered consciousness you're moving even further away from proving the ETH.

If the reports of witnesses are unreliable because their minds are being manipulated by the "aliens" then what are you really left with?

a reply to: DelMarvel

If the reports of witnesses are unreliable because their minds are being manipulated by the "aliens" then what are you really left with?

A phenomenon indistinguishable from a psychological phenomenon.

not unlike radar returns consistent with clouds but also indistinguishable from alien metal.

originally posted by: DelMarvel
a reply to: EnPassant
If you're going to explain high weirdness by arguing that experiencers are in a subjective state of altered consciousness you're moving even further away from proving the ETH.
If the reports of witnesses are unreliable because their minds are being manipulated by the "aliens" then what are you really left with?

The reports of witnesses come in a number of categories. There are pilot sightings, for example, and there are abduction reports. These are very different kinds of experiences and the fact that abductees minds are interfered with does not mitigate against more lucid sightings. Radar, pilot sightings, multiple witness accounts- these cannot be held to be unreliable just because a small number of abductee reports come from a subjective state of mind.

But these psychic episodes, among abductees, strongly suggest that there is something very strange going on with ufos. These abductees are normal people who are not unbalanced unless they are in the throes of an experience. But even thought they are in a strange state of mind there is compelling evidence associated with their experiences. Basic themes emerge - such as the description of the greys - and a picture is built up, based on many experiences, that suggests that the substance of their testimonies is clear enough. (The descriptions of the greys emerged before they were in the media and they were described by people who had no exposure ufology because they did not take an interest in it. The greys just emerged spontaneously from many independent sources.)

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Tangerine
I believe that a large number of people have had anomalous experiences. The nature of those experiences needs to be explored. By limiting the possibilities to extraterrestrials, a hypothesis that has produced no fruit, we avoid considering other possibilities. Don't we owe it to the people who have had these anomalous experiences to think outside of the ET box? How many times do we have to run into a brick wall before we decide to take another path?

Yes, and that is the epitome of an "open mind". We all have our pet theories and biases and that is great. ET is elusive. They are able to be physically here without leaving much of a trace and any trace they do leave is somehow inconclusive that they actually left it. But there seems to be a whole lot of inconclusive evidence. And by inconclusive, I mean ambiguous. So what do you get when you analyze a pile of ambiguous evidence? You get whatever you want to see.

physical beings flying around in physical space ships interacting physically with people will leave physical evidence. The rationalization of why there is no physical evidence is also telling. The MIB, advanced alien tech, government cover up and my favorite, I am a paid disinfo agent working the forums upsetting people and getting them banned! Somehow I was integrated into the reason there is no physical evidence because I pointed that fact out!

So what precludes this from being a purely psychological phenomenon? Absolutely nothing. Is that what it is? I have no idea.

I don't know what it is but it's fast becoming a religion and that's scary. The actual nature of it, whatever it is, may be the origin of religion, itself. The stories of sightings, contacts, abductions etc. influencing human behavior and beliefs extend back into history in the form of polytheistic deities and faeries. Only the technology is upgraded. In case someone thinks this is an endorsement of the ridiculous ancient aliens hype, it's not.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: EnPassant

For example, the technology described - dating right back to the dirigibles of the late 19th century and before - could hardly have originated on earth.

Why would extraterrestrials use steam powered dirigibles?

Shhh. You ask too many logical questions.

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

No, of course not. There are intelligent arguments on all sides but when the phenomenon is closely studied the ETH comes out on top. What I don't entertain is people who just say "Prove it, prove it" and then ignore the arguments and supporting evidence when it is presented to them. This is not intelligent nor is it conductive to a proper conversation.

How can ET come out on top when there's no proof that ET even exists? It would be just as fair to say hobbits come out on top. There are stories about hobbits. It's possible they exist. It's possible they pilot flying machines. It's possible they abduct humans. Their craft have left indentations and the people they have abducted have been left with scars, burns, and implants. All the supporting evidence points to hobbits.

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: EnPassant

Something modern abductees - Strieber - experience all the time.

Whitley Strieber is not an abductee.

Whitley Strieber experiences temporal lobe epilepsy.

That's my preference.

Whitley Strieber is a science fiction writer writing science fiction. That's my preference.

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: DelMarvel
a reply to: EnPassant
If you're going to explain high weirdness by arguing that experiencers are in a subjective state of altered consciousness you're moving even further away from proving the ETH.
If the reports of witnesses are unreliable because their minds are being manipulated by the "aliens" then what are you really left with?

The reports of witnesses come in a number of categories. There are pilot sightings, for example, and there are abduction reports. These are very different kinds of experiences and the fact that abductees minds are interfered with does not mitigate against more lucid sightings. Radar, pilot sightings, multiple witness accounts- these cannot be held to be unreliable just because a small number of abductee reports come from a subjective state of mind.

But these psychic episodes, among abductees, strongly suggest that there is something very strange going on with ufos. These abductees are normal people who are not unbalanced unless they are in the throes of an experience. But even thought they are in a strange state of mind there is compelling evidence associated with their experiences. Basic themes emerge - such as the description of the greys - and a picture is built up, based on many experiences, that suggests that the substance of their testimonies is clear enough. (The descriptions of the greys emerged before they were in the media and they were described by people who had no exposure ufology because they did not take an interest in it. The greys just emerged spontaneously from many independent sources.)

The notion that all "experiencers" are mentally balanced defies logic. Statistically, some must be mentally ill yet there is no mechanism with which to distinguish their mental distortions from those of "normal" experiencers. I think that's significant. ET believers, including researchers, simply believe all stories that support their conclusion. There's nothing scientific about that. This is an example of religion not science.

How do you explain faerie abductions?

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: EnPassant

For example, the technology described - dating right back to the dirigibles of the late 19th century and before - could hardly have originated on earth.

Why would extraterrestrials use steam powered dirigibles?

They were not steam powered. These were set ups, or misperceptions. These set ups are very common. Very often aliens were 'fixing' these dirigibles. Very often a person comes across aliens whose ufo has 'broken down'. There is nothing wrong with these ufos. It is a set up. These beings are adept at putting on a show and misleading the gullible. They present their craft in ordinary terms. There is also a psychic element to encounters where the witness enters an altered state of mind and perceives things according to what he/she can comprehend. So, a person might 'understand' the ufo in familiar terms - 'steam powered' - because that is the only way he can process the information. In other words, the brain, unable to understand what is being seen, fills in the details with the brain's 'stock imagery'.

Sometimes these encounters involve an altered state of consciousness and all kinds of distortions occur. This psychic element lends credibility to the idea that these beings are physical but also exist on a spiritual dimension.

If the dirigibles were set-ups, why aren't high tech UFOs set-ups? And if they're set-ups, why aren't ETs, themselves, set-ups? The question then becomes who or what is doing the setting-up. Is it the human mind? Is it the collective unconcious? Is it the work of interdimensional beings (aka ultraterrestrials)? Any of these options are more likely than actual ETs because actual ETs would be entirely physical and would leave hard physical evidence.

originally posted by: Tangerine

I don't know what it is but it's fast becoming a religion and that's scary. The actual nature of it, whatever it is, may be the origin of religion, itself. .

That more or less was Jung's take on the subject a half a century ago. (EDIT: But I'm sure you already know that!)

originally posted by: EnPassant
These are very different kinds of experiences and the fact that abductees minds are interfered with does not mitigate against more lucid sightings.)

Look, don't take me wrong. I've had some very strange experiences which is one reason I came here to begin with. But one big problem with the quote above is how one distinguishes between "lucid sightings" and people whose minds "are interfered with." Going back and forth between the two when convenient is how "themes" such as the Greys have been created.

a reply to: Tangerine

Hello,
I took some pictures and I after I took a look at them, they was like some I see where they have trails behind the lights, and I did not have a tripod at that time.
The camera is one those digital camera's at Walmart and is not to complicated, a Kodak Easyshare M530
I had made a friend who is a Research Physicist. Center for Astrophysics & Space Sciences. If need be I could ask him for permission include his views, but I doubt he would.
He sent me a picture of the center of the Milky Way Galaxy and we at that time was talking about my Fasting(native ceremonies) and told him of this incident, how my camera which at that time took very few pictures and battery was depleted, and time was lost.
After I make some supper for my boys I will locate them pictures and post them here.
One of the main reasons I joined this site, to see if anyone else had similar experiences.
Picture

I have a few more, but you can see that the image is to shaky. We was camping and saw these lights come over this ridge and they stopped in front of us and started to move in a pattern and I copied the pattern down. No noise was heard but them lights were moving very fast and stop so quick and come so close to me that the light made a glow on my body as my son was telling me, he was in front of my wife and younger son, I was the first in front.
This was the first time, and far as I know there has been 44 other incidents. Not only me but they follow my children around as well who was not even there at that time, my older children have their own lives and families.

originally posted by: InhaleExhale

originally posted by: Paperjacket

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: Paperjacket

if you want evidence, I think the Nazca lines are evidence that may prove that extraterrestrials visited the earth and I also establish a hypothesis and you are welcomed to challenge my analysis .

Bravo you think its evidence.

It was an enjoyable read but what you think is evidence of ET might be thought of as evidence for something else by many others.


Hey but thinking is good, keep it up

Yes of course.

Half glass of water can be described as either half full or half empty. In fact I welcome any hypothesis as long as it is reasonable.

or just a glass of water in my opinion, really couldn't care at the amount of water unless I or another is thirsty, then the amount becomes important.

as if evidence is required to prove its half full or empty a few parameters must be met, what is a standard glass, 250ml, does your half full or half empty glass of water have 125ml exactly?

The parameters pointing to the lines or evidence that the lines were created by humans via terrestrial ideas are much more solid than Mork or ZOG from Uranus coming here and making them or influencing their making.

I welcome any thoughts whether they can be classed as a hypothesis or a mad delusion all is good and entertaining its when one feels the need to defend their thoughts is when another will attack those thoughts or hypothesis.

In fact a LOT of archaeologists have made their efforts for decades trying to prove that the Nazca lines were in fact something purely local. But till now, there simply does not exist a hypothesis/theory by which not only the animal figures but the lines can be properly explained. In fact, even how the natives could build those shapes remains unsolved. It looks to me there is no solid explanations at all, in other words, we, till now, can not come to the conclusion that the Nazca lines were designed and made by humans.

a reply to: chachonee

The photo is very interesting. I have no doubt that you saw something anomalous in the sky. The question then becomes what it was and I don't know how anyone could say for certain. You had 44 experiences yourself? Were they all the same? Thank you for sharing your experiences.

a reply to: Tangerine

I can't tell you how true some of what wrote has been in my 30+ years of meeting the "experts" in "UFOlogy"...

Unfortunately I think theology has been routed by the desire of fame and easy cash by more than a few of them.

I could respect it more if those I am thinking of actually believed what they said or, and more importantly, I could believe they were sane, critically thinking, humans rather than people who were emotionally searching for that which only critical thought and education can answer.

But of course I've been wrong many, many, times so they could be right as rain!

a reply to: Paperjacket

And that is perfectly fine. There are a lot of things we don't understand. Given enough time we will figure it out eventualy. But jumping the gun and proclaiming, "We can't explain it, must be... ALIENS", is just silly. It is the classic god of the gaps argument.

a reply to: Mehmet666Heineken

Been here for a few hours and noticed it immediately. "They're all just Murrican military super duper aircraft" yeah tell that to witnesses in Peru retards.

i'd be impressed if you'd read all that ats has to offer on the subject in a few hours - but i suspect you haven't - there's actually quite a broad range of ideas posted here

originally posted by: aynock
a reply to: Mehmet666Heineken

Been here for a few hours and noticed it immediately. "They're all just Murrican military super duper aircraft" yeah tell that to witnesses in Peru retards.

i'd be impressed if you'd read all that ats has to offer on the subject in a few hours - but i suspect you haven't - there's actually quite a broad range of ideas posted here

A former voiceless lurker. Read a few comments saying UFO are just American test craft and a bunch of people seemed to back it up. Felt surprised that such a stupid theory could gain traction is all. Cheers

a reply to: Mehmet666Heineken

Felt surprised that such a stupid theory could gain traction is all. Cheers

many here feel the same about the aliens theory - arguments are better than insults imo though

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: Paperjacket

And that is perfectly fine. There are a lot of things we don't understand. Given enough time we will figure it out eventualy. But jumping the gun and proclaiming, "We can't explain it, must be... ALIENS", is just silly. It is the classic god of the gaps argument.

Well I do agree that it is stupid to claim everything we can not explain now aliens, it is simply unreasonable. But at the same time I also can't rule out possibilities that some of them may be related if there is reasonable analysis. It is also stupid to deny aliens since there is no proof to say aliens do not exist.

Personally I prefer to and would very much like to search on hypothesis supporting aliens based on reasoning since it is of great fun. But I also tend to understand those who just believe that there exists aliens because I believe in what Bertrand Russell has said "The universe is vast and men are but tiny specks on an insignificant planet. But the more we realize our minuteness and our impotence in the face of cosmic forces, the more astonishing becomes what human beings have achieved".