Government to Ordained Ministers: Celebrate Same-Sex Wedding or Go to Jail

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: tavi45

Correct.
This isn't about gay rights, it is about government overreaching and going outside of the boundaries of our Constitution.

" No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Since you seemed to have missed it, I highlighted the portion that is relevant here. EQUAL PROTECTION. Don't like it? Feel free to pack up and leave! And before you respond to that, I carry a tribal membership card, so I feel quite justified in inviting you to get the hell out of MY country.

a reply to: tadaman

This discussion is about Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho.

The claim is that they are ordained ministers and would be de-ordained if they officiated at this marriage.

Who are they ordained by? What church, et. al.?

You made the claim; back it up.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Gryphon66

SEVERAL. SEVERAL faiths. You can be certified in Jewish ceremonies, Christian and any other you want in these cheapo tacky chapels no real gay man would be caught dead in. You offer weddings to Jews, you do the Rabbi thing. You get Catholics, you do the Catholic thing. You offer several religious services. No matter how trivial you think that is, it is still a religious ceremony.

What gets me is that there are plenty of these cheapo whore chapels that wed people by just civil union. TARGETING the ones that dont is done to set a precedent and everyone knows that no matter the subterfuge used to hide the fact...

So they only marry Christians? If not, then your argument is invalid.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
So you're campaigning to bring back the "Whites Only Served" signs, Mac? Wow, that's pretty open of you.

When did I state that??

originally posted by: Gryphon66
No one is talking about private homes, no one is talking about who you can be friends with.

Oh, so what exactly were you referencing then, in this comment.

originally posted by: Gryphon66 Business owners must follow the same laws as the rest of us.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Are you bringing back the Brown Shirts, Mac? I'm not sure that's the best move.

Yeah, because I am the one forcing others to do what I want them to do.

That is held by you and the progressive cohorts.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Yeah, gotta love it when Regressives want to twist what they say when they realize what it means (usually pointed out by a Progressive). Of course, it's a special interest group, Mac! CHRISTIANS! are the most specialist special interest group of all! Because, apparently, to hear Regressives tell it, society should just ignore the laws because CHRISTIANS don't like them and feel like laws shouldn't apply to them because, well, you know, they have beliefs, and those are better and more important than other people's beliefs.

Always falls back to Christians.
Bud, that has nothing to do with it.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I don't know about Progressive Fairy Land (they won't let me in since I only meet half the criteria) but I can tell you in Regressive Holy Land that apparently some Christians think its fine to force others to view the world as they do, fine enough that laws should be ignored on their behalf.

And again, Christians have nothing to do with this.
Has to do with Freedoms as a whole.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
So talk to them about forcing people to think that what they believe is true is the only way to look at it.

Oh, so Christians are forcing others to do what they think???

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I just favor the Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the Rights of the State of Idaho to make its own laws; what do I know?

/shrug

Now that is pretty laughable.

a reply to: Gryphon66

It may be internet spaghetti monster church ordinations. If they perform a religious ceremony, out of consideration and constitutionality to the MILLIONS of people who think religion is important, it doesnt matter if they offer even ONE religious main stream ceremony. Maybe their main whore selling point is religious ceremonies that the Catholic church doesn't recognize but still give comfort to idiots who think getting hitched at these scum bag places is important because a cross or a menorah was there and some ritual was performed in the eyes of God to them.

You dont get to say what is legally valid because not even the federal government can do that.

What you arent from this century to now how to get ordained to run a prostitute chapel? I am supposed to think you honestly dont know?

And this is why I talked to other people and you and I are just being angry dolphins for the sake of bickering. YOU arent being honest. You think YOU are done with this conversation? I am done with it.

All yours. Talk about how not being able to kiss a boy freely with a cross present is the end of the world or what ever. I am the hell out of here.

a reply to: macman

You seemed to be pining for those good ol' days when business owners could keep the undesirables out as they wished, weren't you?

I haven't said anything about private homes or friends and that doesn't apply here.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. The State of Idaho may enforce their laws.

You brought up the Brownshirts Mac, not me. I just asked if you had insider information.

Progressive, Regressive, butcher, baker and candlestick-maker ...

Hey, did you see that someone beat you to the Alinsky punch this time around? My money was on you, bud.

Tsk.

Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, are asking to be elevated above the laws of Idaho because of their Christian belief. Of course it has something to do with it!

Oh, so it's Freedoms as a whole now? So, freedom of the press, assembly, speech, habeas corpus, et. al are also being threatened? Should we cue the John Philipps Sousa band now?

Sheesh, do you have enough red, white and blue to paint yourself in? Give us a break.

Oh, and this gem: "Oh, so Christians are forcing others to do what they think???"

I'm just going to leave that one right there.

Glad I can still make you laugh, Mac; the magic is not dead yet!

Does anyone know who Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho are ordained by? What church or religion or Arcade Managers Association?

I can't seem to get an answer from the guy making a claim about it, so I'll throw it out to the room at large.

a reply to: tadaman

"The Metropolitan Community Church (MCC), also known as the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (UFMCC), is an international Protestant Christian denomination. There are 222 member congregations in 37 countries, and the Fellowship has a specific outreach to lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender families and communities."

Now what was that about a "mainstream religious ceremony"?

originally posted by: SomePeople

originally posted by: Dfairlite

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Dfairlite

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Dfairlite

The government is not enforcing tolerance, that would be a fool's game, as this thread makes obvious.

The government is enforcing the laws of Idaho regarding discrimination and marriage and public accomdation.

LOL, really? they're not enforcing tolerance, they're enforcing the laws!? The laws mandating tolerance. Oh darn... but good try. TBH, I think you may be losing your mind.

Perhaps you'll favor the insane then with a quote from a law in Idaho that mentions "mandated tolerance."

Marriage is legal for different sexed and same sexed couples now, in Idaho.

Hitching Post is a business which provides marriages to the public.

Idaho has a law forbidding discrimination against homosexual citizens.

That's the law being enforced.

Weddings are a product being sold, for a profit. The marriage license issued by the state is all one needs to be married. You don't have to go to a chapel. The chapel isn't denying them the opportunity to be married.

The chapel is just denying blacks in their establishment. That's perfectly fine - oh, what a minute...it isn't. It's not fine at all.

Hang your bloody head in shame for thinking that it is.

In a free society, it is fine. It may be frowned upon but it is not the government's place to say who you have to let onto your property.

a reply to: JaxonRoberts

That would be fine.

And thats the thing. Its not like you cant just marry in a religion you fit into. OR MAKE ONE. This targets people who perform a legally protected religious observance who dont cater to gays and tries to force them to be like the ones that accept gays. YOU can make a GAY RELIGION who only marries gay couples and turns away hetero couples.


I said it before. Whats next? Telling Catholics to have female priests and female alter servers like Protestants because if not they will go to jail for discrimination towards women?

What about the cheapo scum bag chapels that actually take pride in being in business for several generations and try to be faithful to the religions they marry people in....even if they were ordained at the sponge bob square pants of judeo christian ordination schools of the internet or what ever. OR the ones who go through the official channels and comply with the faiths they try to marry people in? Who has the right to say one process is arbitrary and the other is official. Its still religious functions. You dont need the government to give you tax exempt status to even be legally protected by the constitution. If not the Government would choose what religions you can choose from based on who they deem worthy of tax exempt status. Thats like having several state sponsored religions.

I already showed examples of religious themed businesses that will have their constitutional rights infringed upon by not being able to protect their faiths from people that otherwise they could have turned away. What about a satanist walking into a Catholic goods store looking for bibles to burn and piss on for a black mass to heavy mental music, even as a gag....Catholics have to sell their sacred texts to them and be offended and mistreated? What if you make a religion where Mohammad is on every other page of a Koran coloring book JUST to piss off Muslims and infringe on their rights? They have to accommodate you then too? Because thats beyond Neo nazis and the general sociopaths of society? That cant happen and if it does who cares, GAYS...because of reasons?

SO if its not a physical church like we see in movies they are screwed and left to the whims of the liberals of this generation for ever after?

I draw pictures of horses and ducks. You demand donkeys and kittens. Why am I forced to draw kittens and donkeys?

No one seems to want to admit that the wedding is a product, not a marriage. The marriage is provided by the state. The state can't force you to sell a product that accommodates another persons preferences. As a business you get to decide what products you sell.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Does anyone know who Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho are ordained by? What church or religion or Arcade Managers Association?

I can't seem to get an answer from the guy making a claim about it, so I'll throw it out to the room at large.

try googling it. tats where all the other stuff in this thread was found im sure.

a reply to: Gryphon66

No one is trying to keep gays out. They're simply wanting to run their business as they see fit by offering products they're comfortable offering. I have yet to see a case where the people demanded the gays leave and never come back because they're unwelcome. The only cases I have seen are gays wanting a product that isn't offered at businesses they visit.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Does anyone know who Donald and Evelyn Knapp, owners of Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho are ordained by? What church or religion or Arcade Managers Association?

I can't seem to get an answer from the guy making a claim about it, so I'll throw it out to the room at large.

David and Evelyn Knapp, ordained ministers of the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.
www.freerepublic.com...

The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, commonly referred to as the Foursquare Church, is a Protestant evangelical Pentecostal Christian denomination founded in 1923 by preacher Aimee Semple McPherson. As of 2000, it had a worldwide membership of over 8,000,000, with almost 60,000 churches in 144 countries. In 2006, membership in the United States was 353,995 in 1,875 churches.[1] While congregations are concentrated along the West Coast, the denomination is well distributed across the United States.[2] The states with the highest membership rates are Oregon, Hawaii, Montana, Washington, and California.[2] The church maintains its headquarters in Los Angeles, California.
en.wikipedia.org...

Well, I have some corrections to make because I relied on these silly articles in the right-wing rags and didn't go to a primary source.

Here is the actual recorded legal action filed on behalf of the Knapps by the so-called Alliance Defending Freedom firm:

www.adfmedia.org...

Apparently instead of a State ordinance barring discrimination based on sexual orientation, it's a local ordinance to City of Coeur D’Alene.

Here's a link to the Code in question: Non Discrimination Policy

Here's a small sample of what the law actually says:

A. In order to ensure that all persons, regardless of sexual orientation and/or gender identity/expression enjoy the full benefits of citizenship and are afforded equal opportunities for employment, housing, commercial property, and the use of public accommodations, the city of Coeur d'Alene has determined that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity/expression must be addressed, and appropriate legislation enacted.

B. It is hereby declared that every individual in the city of Coeur d'Alene has the right to work and earn wages through gainful employment, has the right to seek housing, and has the right to enjoy public accommodation and hospitality.

The Complaint, to it's credit, is not afraid of stating the facts in regard to the Hitchin' Post's status:

11. The Hitching Post Wedding Chapel is a public accommodation under this ordinance because the Knapps open the chapel to the public and offer wedding services in exchange for a fee. According to the City, the Knapps and Hitching Post, LLC also deny privileges based on sexual orientation under this ordinance because they perform wedding ceremonies for opposite-sex couples and do not perform these services for same-sex couples.

But, it's pretty clear that these attorney's are counting on this going to the long game because they're using some very interesting Supreme Court inspired language:

5. The Knapps have performed wedding ceremonies in this chapel ever since, eventually forming Hitching Post Weddings, LLC as a “religious corporation” and an “extension of their sincerely held religious beliefs” to “help people create, celebrate, and build lifetime, monogamous, one-man-one-woman marriages as defined by the Holy Bible.” See Hitching Post
Wedding, LLC Operating Agreement, attached to this Complaint as Exhibit 1.

Yeah, I bet that's just the way they wrote it, back in 1989.

Kali, Windword, I think y'all are right ... they're obviously trying to duck under the Hobby Lobby aegis.

Talk about "we were told that wouldn't happen" ... eh?

a reply to: windword

Thanks, so they actually have their ordinations from a church.

I stand corrected, and shouldn't have made all those cracks about internet ordinations.

Still, if they are de-frocked for conforming to State and local laws ... don't they have a case ...

Ah, who am I kidding ... this isn't about that.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
I draw pictures of horses and ducks. You demand donkeys and kittens. Why am I forced to draw kittens and donkeys?

No one seems to want to admit that the wedding is a product, not a marriage. The marriage is provided by the state. The state can't force you to sell a product that accommodates another persons preferences. As a business you get to decide what products you sell.

The Knapps are not advertising "Christian" weddings and no where in the advertisement does it say that they offer a religious service or that they screen their clients for religious preference or morality. They don't say that atheists are turned away, or Jews or Cherokee. They are selling "Weddings". Period.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Dfairlite
I draw pictures of horses and ducks. You demand donkeys and kittens. Why am I forced to draw kittens and donkeys?

No one seems to want to admit that the wedding is a product, not a marriage. The marriage is provided by the state. The state can't force you to sell a product that accommodates another persons preferences. As a business you get to decide what products you sell.

The Knapps are not advertising "Christian" weddings and no where in the advertisement does it say that they offer a religious service or that they screen their clients for religious preference or morality. They don't say that atheists are turned away, or Jews or Cherokee. They are selling "Weddings". Period.

And until just a few weeks ago weddings were only between a man and woman. So you're saying as long as they advertise heterosexual services, they're Ok, right?

a reply to: Dfairlite

No. I'm saying that they didn't have religious preferences for who they married, for example, divorcees, adulterers, atheists, Pagans, mixed race couples, mixed religion couple, don't seem to have been turned away. Only now, do they use their religious beliefs, to reject gay couples.

If they marry a divorced couple, aren't they abetting fornication? Where's their outrage? Sin is sin, right?

a reply to: windword

Thats what you're going with? that is simple they
allowed people that sinned, so now they're supposed to assist people in sin?