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Government to Ordained Ministers: Celebrate Same-Sex Wedding or Go to Jail

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posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 02:37 PM
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originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

Sound like anybody else we know?



Yah. Sounds like a lot of people I know. Everyone is telling everyone else what to do. Some more than others. What's your point exactly???

As a society we have established an institution to Govern our activities. If that choice is between an Elected Government or a Theocratic one, I'll choose the Elected Government over the Theocratic one. Sure they both are probably going to get out of control and abusive with their power. But at least there is a chance in getting the Elected Government back under control since it's power comes from the People. People have no control over a Government that gets it's Authority to Rule from God's Interpreted Word who he also decided to only tell to a small group of people which cannot be verified.




posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 02:38 PM
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How many times have we been through this?

If your state has discrimination laws (that include GLBT) ---- and you are a licensed for profit business, you serve them. Period!

I hear the Elvis Chapel in NV is refusing to marry gays for religious reason.

I got married there. They never asked me anything. I could have been a murderer, a prostitute, an adulterer ---- whatever.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 02:46 PM
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Let's not confuse these peeps with church folk. They run a for-profit wedding chapel. Anything with the name of "The Hitching Post" is definitely NOT a church, and thus is NOT protected from non-discrimination laws that affect every other business in the community. If you run a public business, you don't get to pick and choose your customers under any stipulation other than can they pay for your services. Don't like it, close up shop and turn it into an actual church!



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:05 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

But............we were all promised this wouldn't happen.


Like we were promised we could keep our doctors and health insurance.

Well, if you like your traditional based church, you can keep your traditional based church....



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Kalikiller

Ah, okay. So, intolerant gays from California made you marry them? Made you watch them get married? Made you officiate at their wedding?

How are religious beliefs under attack exactly? Which beliefs and what attacks?

Are we considering the "Hitching Post Old West Wedding Chapel and Rice Emporium" [sic] a religious institution now?

"Ministers in TX." Who knows based on that description? Which ministers, when, what context?

Why would your username offend me?

You want to invoke the wrath of the Dark Mother, that's on you, bud!



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:13 PM
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originally posted by: macman
But............we were all promised this wouldn't happen.


Like we were promised we could keep our doctors and health insurance.

Well, if you like your traditional based church, you can keep your traditional based church....


Except this isn't "your traditional based church". It's a psudo-religious business that does themed weddings. So, actually, yes, you can keep your traditional based churches after all. However, some business practices are going to have to change a little. Everyone can still discriminate within their Houses of Worship. Just not in their Businesses which agree to serve the public equally.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm
SO who said anything about a Theocracy. I merely mentioned the difference between a democracy and a republic. It is a Republic which we have, which is a representative form that includes democratic elements.
I'm with you, I want a representative Republic, not a banana republic with a liberal fascist tyranny, nor a theocratic one for that matter. What in a representative republic says that government should dictate religious matters to churches ? Again, people may get married by a justice of the peace, they are not being denied a civil marriage.
Fascist style of government has been taking over since Woodrow Wilson, that is my main point. Woodrow Wilson was decidedly a Progressive Democrat. Many trends in today's governmemt stem from his influence, and many people enjoy those trends as long as the laws being made reflect their personal ideologies.

edit on 20-10-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: CranialSponge

This is going to be a very long post. I warn you. It is basically everything I have to say about this, but if you do read it all I think you will understand the opposition to this fairly completely. Its up to you all. Thanks in advance for hearing me out.

I didnt say it wasnt owned by parishioners. It went out of business and the church stayed. You also didnt address the other issues I mentioned.

Lets take a closer look at Scientology. Where does the business begin and where does the church end? They most certainly run their operations for a profit. All do really. They provide a religious function while charging their members for supplies only they sell and for services only they offer. They can then turn around and cut you off without even giving you a reason.

How about buying a Koran from Muslim communities and burning them. What happens when racist and xenophobic groups targets Muslim communities with the proposed law as presented here? What happens if they go to every business that sells Korans and burn those books...or draw Mohammad on the cover and then burn them? Where is the right of those Muslim businesses that sell those books being defended? What if they use these new ambitious laws focused on the gay community to target religious communities that they hate? How is gay culture going to feel collectively about that and how is it going to be perceived globally? More importantly how is it going to be dealt with legally?

You cant refuse to sell them your most sacred text...because you are a business...but your religious laws forbid you from letting such a thing happen? So you either just stop selling your Korans because you cant be legally protected and let these idiots win or be legally wrong and formally opposed? You know that can happen. I know you know.

The problem with these morally charged laws is that they have NO PLACE in law. They are moral values made into law to appease the populace here and now. How would you feel if by making a law where a religious business or a business that is catered to a particular religion takes this to the supreme court and because of this all being unconstitutional all gay rights are set back? Would that be productive? They wouldn't even have to win. All they need to do is tie the courts up.

That period of time I mentioned earlier when defined natural law then undergoes the process of becoming organic law...what if things go back to that because a judicial limbo is created. I will give you an example-

Why do you think that blacks were first freed from slavery, then slowly had their rights defined by laws over many years going all the way to recently when they finally won the right to vote, and even more recently where the finite details of their liberties were further defined? It was always morally correct to do this. Even in the hay day of slavery, there were people who saw and argued for their justice....

You cant ask for everything now because you risk giving precedent to creating a judicial nightmare that the very nature of the system demands resolution to. There is no long lasting legal limbo. A bad decision will be taken if nothing else is offered just to have a bad law in place until things can be figured out.

Lady justice is blind for a reason. Going back to the foundation of western law in the halls of the Greek philosophers dealing with the ethereal exclusively....we wont do what is right morally. We will do what promotes balance legally.

What is morally correct for one generation is not for another. The only thing you can base something so serious as a nations or a peoples laws on is unalterable natural law. Even then you have to take measured steps.

Gay culture better take what they can get and pace themselves. I will give you another example. Imagine if the IRA never took the deal offered by the UK and because of that one county they continued fighting forfeiting everything they have gained since. One single county keeping them from having the very thing they fought for.

I dont support the IRA mind you, that is an example.

If gay culture refuses to be happy with the balance FINALLY achieved they risk losing it all over one issue like this. Let religious business be idiots if they want. Gay culture won this battle and only needs to stay vigilant for the right moment to ask for more. They could risk setting a precedent that will roll back everything and leave the judicial system of the country with no choice than to wait maybe another 200 years more until we can address this issue in a meaningful way. They will say we are not ready and in the name of law and order will just wait some more.

Like if slaves asked for voting rights, property rights, and the right to legal protection once they were freed off the bat. We fought a civil war over trying to break the legally biding contract of the constitution when some states tried to back out. Ever try to end a contract with a phone company? You cant agree to a contract and then resign from it. Legally there is nothing that takes priority over that. ESPECIALLY morality. If slaves risked everything and weren't patient they could have given their opponents everything they needed to argue that we weren't ready for all that. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten those rights little by little since. They would have been placed on the back burner AGAIN.

This is what people dont understand about law and why we hate lawyers for making what we think are crappy deals. Sure a rapist going free is morally reprehensible. Legally if the contract of law is violated there is nothing more important. Rapist or murder or not.

The same contract that is currently being withdrawn from or attempted to be by saying that a religious business doesn't sit with you because of morality. I am a little old waiter and I can come up with hundreds of examples of how this is unconstitutional. Can you imagine what a constitutional lawyer can do?

This WILL come down to a closed room where someone who is opposed to this for what ever reason will make a supreme court judge see how dangerous this is and how we arent ready. Law errs on the side of prudence. No matter how righteous you may feel about this, and even if all the supreme court was all gay and 100% in support of you guys, they will act like judges. They will put this on the back burner with legal mumbo jumbo you wont understand and gay culture will lose everything. They wont act out of morality. No way in hell. They will act in the spirit of the law. Thats all they can do.

I am sorry if I went off, but I really have allot to say about this.

In the name of everyone's best interest....take this and be happy. That doesn't mean stop fighting...just choose your battles.

Like a lawyer you think is screwing you around....I assure you this is the best deal you can get right now. If you fight this things can turn out much worse than you imagine. SO live to fight another day. Fight another day sure...but dont risk it all in an all or nothing stance. That is unreasonable and in that room between supreme court judges that will come one day if you press on, they wont see it like you. They will act like they always do. Like judges blind to morality and in the name of balance for society at large.

Thanks again. have a good one.

Hold it down.
edit on 10 20 2014 by tadaman because: (no reason given)

edit on 10 20 2014 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: JaxonRoberts




If you run a public business, you don't get to pick and choose your customers under any stipulation other than can they pay for your services


NOT true! Ever hear of "no shoes no shirt no business"? Yah, my hubby got run out of un upscale restaurant because he was wearing a sleeveless shirt. It was Florida where even flip flops are allowed.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:34 PM
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Hey, let's quit all this and go to the horse's, er, hitchin' post:

Under "Wedding Packages" Hitching Post Lakeside Chapel website




True Love Wedding Package

Includes:

Minister
Decorated Chapel
Music during the ceremony
Limited time usage of changing room
Filing your marriage license with the County Recorder
Pricing:

Monday – Thursday 9am – 5pm: $80.00
Friday – Saturday 9am – 5pm: $90.00
Holidays, after hours, Sundays – fees vary slightly
Gratuity to minister accepted





Memories Wedding Package

Includes:

Minister
Decorated Chapel
Music during the ceremony
Limited time usage of changing room
Filing of your marriage license with the County Recorder
SD Card with 6-10 photos of your wedding for you to take with you
Pricing:

Monday – Thursday 9:00AM -5:00PM $92.00
Friday – Saturday 9:00AM -5:00PM $102.00
Holidays, after hours, Sundays – fees vary slightly
Gratuity to minister accepted


Now, what is that? Yes, it's a menu of services, complete with a suggestion for "gratuity."

So, this is a product, a service that is paid for with money.

It is not (and if you notice above, doesn't pretend to be) a religious service.

Goods for sale to the public. No prayers, no candles or incense burning, no praising God, YHVH or Allah.

How can any of you look at this and compare it to your church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc?



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:41 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

I'm going to ignore the fact that you blissfully compared all gays to a terrorist organization, or basically that we should shut up and take what we get.

Here's the question: how many "gays" are involved with this issue at the Hitching Post Wedding Chapel?

Two.

We don't have some kind of nationwide hotline voting where the Too Fabulous Congress meets and decides what we're all going to do and support nationwide. You've generalized this action to all gays (and I assume, Lesbians, bisexuals, et. al.) everywhere, assumed that they all feel exactly the same as whoever brought this action, and feel that you need to warm All of Us to take what we get ...

... or what? You're not clear on that point. Take what we get or ... we won't be considered equal citizens anymore? is straight society going to go back to throwing us in jail because they don't like what they think we may be doing? gas chambers, concentration camps?

I'm just wondering, what you're offering as the alternative if we don't continue to stick up for our equal rights so long and hard won.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
Hey, let's quit all this and go to the horse's, er, hitchin' post:

Under "Wedding Packages" Hitching Post Lakeside Chapel website




True Love Wedding Package

Includes:

Minister
Decorated Chapel
Music during the ceremony
Limited time usage of changing room
Filing your marriage license with the County Recorder
Pricing:

Monday – Thursday 9am – 5pm: $80.00
Friday – Saturday 9am – 5pm: $90.00
Holidays, after hours, Sundays – fees vary slightly
Gratuity to minister accepted





Memories Wedding Package

Includes:

Minister
Decorated Chapel
Music during the ceremony
Limited time usage of changing room
Filing of your marriage license with the County Recorder
SD Card with 6-10 photos of your wedding for you to take with you
Pricing:

Monday – Thursday 9:00AM -5:00PM $92.00
Friday – Saturday 9:00AM -5:00PM $102.00
Holidays, after hours, Sundays – fees vary slightly
Gratuity to minister accepted


Now, what is that? Yes, it's a menu of services, complete with a suggestion for "gratuity."

So, this is a product, a service that is paid for with money.

It is not (and if you notice above, doesn't pretend to be) a religious service.

Goods for sale to the public. No prayers, no candles or incense burning, no praising God, YHVH or Allah.

How can any of you look at this and compare it to your church, synagogue, mosque, temple, etc?



Exactly, so I would simply price a heterosexual package at $500~ and a homosexual package right around one trillion dollars. Different services, different prices. If you don't want to pay what I'm charging, too bad.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
a reply to: mOjOm
SO who said anything about a Theocracy. I merely mentioned the difference between a democracy and a republic. It is a Republic which we have, which is a representative form that includes democratic elements.
I'm with you, I want a representative Republic, not a banana republic with a liberal fascist tyranny, nor a theocratic one for that matter. What in a representative republic says that government should dictate religious matters to churches ? Again, people may get married by a justice of the peace, they are not being denied a civil marriage.
Fascist style of government has been taking over since Woodrow Wilson, that is my main point. Woodrow Wilson was decidedly a Progressive Democrat. Many trends in today's governmemt stem from his influence, and many people enjoy those trends as long as the laws being made reflect their personal ideologies.


But this isn't an official Religious Institution. It's just some goofy themed wedding chapel. Yes, the owners are of one specific Denomination and want to do things in the way they interpret their Religion. I get that. But they aren't qualifying for the status of a Religious Institution. They want to have all the benefits of both a Public Business plus all the Benefits of a Private Religious Institution too. But it doesn't work that way.

Religious institutions follow certain rules to be officially considered to be such. Businesses have entirely different rules and qualifications. So as long as these "Hitching Post" Ministers are running a business, they should follow the rules of business. If however, they qualify for Religious Status, then fine. But they can't have it both ways. I don't know why that is too much to ask. It's what we ask of any other establishment.

But also, keep in mind this is all just a false "cry wolf" situation anyway being pushed by this Religiously Based Legal Institution with the Heritage Foundation and ADL. This is all a knee jerk reaction to a situation that hasn't even happened. No Gay Couple has tried insisting these people do anything for them. They just don't like the fact that they are being told, as a business, they must abide by the same rules as other businesses. If they were an actual Religious Organization they wouldn't have to change anything.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

I am for religious freedom. You seem to have issues with contracts. A dumb ass hillbilly insults gays and the network he represents decides to suspend him and you think it's a violation of free speech. Now disallowing discrimination in a place of public commerce via religious beliefs, when they agreed to the terms and conditions their city, state and federal government put forth in order for them to obtain a business license... note the word business.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

If you're unclear, "no shirt no shoes" is a matter of health code, not religious belief.

Was it a private club you guys were attending? Because if not, you should have sued and taken the, pardon the pun, shirt off their back.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:47 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: macman
But............we were all promised this wouldn't happen.


Like we were promised we could keep our doctors and health insurance.

Well, if you like your traditional based church, you can keep your traditional based church....


Except this isn't "your traditional based church". It's a psudo-religious business that does themed weddings. So, actually, yes, you can keep your traditional based churches after all. However, some business practices are going to have to change a little. Everyone can still discriminate within their Houses of Worship. Just not in their Businesses which agree to serve the public equally.


Ahhhh, so we, as business owners, now loose more rights.

Gotcha.

Gotta love the Progressive way of thinking. Tolerance no matter what. Even if forced by Govt.
The intolerant will be forced to be tolerant, by those intolerant of the intolerant.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:47 PM
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a reply to: Dfairlite

So you agree it's not a religious issue then, but a matter of intentional discrimination? Since you're charging two differnt prices based on your prejudice?

Thanks for your honesty!




(BTW, I learned that trick from a lil bunny rabbit.)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:49 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

It's both. Personally it would be a religious issue, so for me to violate my religious beliefs in my business I would charge a hefty price, one that no one could afford. Simple and effective.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:50 PM
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And for the record, I don't believe the state should have any say in marriage whatsoever. It is a religious institution.
edit on 20-10-2014 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:52 PM
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originally posted by: macman

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: macman
But............we were all promised this wouldn't happen.


Like we were promised we could keep our doctors and health insurance.

Well, if you like your traditional based church, you can keep your traditional based church....


Except this isn't "your traditional based church". It's a psudo-religious business that does themed weddings. So, actually, yes, you can keep your traditional based churches after all. However, some business practices are going to have to change a little. Everyone can still discriminate within their Houses of Worship. Just not in their Businesses which agree to serve the public equally.


Ahhhh, so we, as business owners, now loose more rights.

Gotcha.

Gotta love the Progressive way of thinking. Tolerance no matter what. Even if forced by Govt.
The intolerant will be forced to be tolerant, by those intolerant of the intolerant.



Nope, no business owner has had the right to illegally discriminate in the US in over 60 years, so you haven't "loosed" any rights at all.

Business owners must follow the same laws as the rest of us.

Gotta love the Regressive way of thinking. Cry about government interference and special interest groups and then insist that the government treat you as a special interest group that is above the laws the rest of us are subject to.

There's actually a well-accepted term for that you know; intolerance of intolerance is called justice, Mac.



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