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Has God exhausted itself (using the human experience) as its main source of self expression

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posted on Oct, 19 2014 @ 10:06 PM
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a reply to: [post=18554629]veteranhumanbeing BY JOECROFT

Vethumanbeing: Lets say what you understand as God is just a field of energy, strong weak forces in expression; and informationally is made up of ones and zeros (this we understand).


Joecroft: Yeah!, this we understand YaY! wait a minute…(needle scratches the record shcwthrrrrr, followed by dead silence). Waduya mean “this we understand”… are you speaking for all of us…lol. If God is just a field of energy strong and weak etc, then God’s should be sprouting up all over the place, even in your household Washing Machines and Micro Waves etc.

Sure; why you distrust this understanding; 'god' is not made up of physical matter; its just an idea (IT MADE ITSELF UP and needs the human to VERIFY ITS existence). Not trying to convince you of ITS existence; but I would recheck your washer machine (may have a mind of its own and birth a Prius you might not be able to pay taxes and insurance upon); let faith take the reigns here (REALLY). I cannot speak for you; I will let your Pastor or Priest do that for you (name and number).

Joecroft: the first one’s and zero’s in a vacuum; now surely those lowly ones and zeros, didn’t just organise themselves into Godhood by themselves, did they…? I like to think God is (Odstuff between the gaps, the stuff which organises, and that what lies between the 1s and 0s etc… Anyway, moving onto your main question.

I think you mean my MAIN ANSWER or implied; that you completely missed. We as humans are its expression; in the attempt to know its own being, allowing good and evil to thrive in an environment of non-judgment. You have a problem with this?

Joecroft: But there is judgment, it’s called the “karmic Cycle/Law”, And Evil has to exist for freewill to be completely present. The ideal state is to have free will (which includes evil being present) but where people choose to live in the good i.e. in light and truth. It’s the Perfection within the imperfection.

Crying foul here; (I completely agree with you) this discussion is not about 'judgement' THAT IS A GIVEN in as much as EVERYTHING is allowed by your Creator Being. So; freewill is out of the window (not a player here). There is not supposed to be any perfection, without imperfection THERE IS NO GROWTH.

Vethumanbeing: Is there enough of a future for us that "God" would continue to be interested (in ITSELF as us). Not a fatalist but come on; where is the tipping point when mankind joins the lemmings. Will mankind ever get another chance, perhaps in an alternate dimensional universe? Is there anything new that "God" is waiting for that we have yet to invent? I think its waiting for itself to respond.


Joecroft: When you go on slide/ride, you experience the ride in the moment, you have no need for remembering trigonometry, or for how many seconds there are in a minute etc…you just live for the moment/experience. It’s the same when your higher self goes to experience a new life below; there’s no need to be clinging on to all your previous past experiences, and higher knowledge and memories etc…, you can contemplate your whole life experience and past ones, when you get back up there…this is how I imagine we develop spiritually, either up the scale or down it, depending on our choices; So not exactly a complete reboot, from the higher perspective, but it certainly appears that way, from the lower perspective IMO.

Did you pay money to have the ride of your life? I actually like the fact I understood Pythagorean Geometry (sacred geometry). I'm attempting to live in the moment (WHOA, this is hard) without my higher self yacking at me; as you say measuring seconds. I stopped contemplating my existence when I realized I had planned it all out before I incarnated as this being. I SURRENDERED to this life path (I chose and REMEMBERED; basically gave it up to my higher self's wisdom) which of course is You Know Who.
edit on 19-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 01:37 PM
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VetH
Respectfully….at the very best you are anthropomorphizing the creator God and making them into the image of man as if they “needed” some mass and molecules to exist and experience Life.

The facts are …if there is a creator God their life existence is wholly outside of the material realm.Your suppositions is like Walt Disney needed Mickey Mouse,Donald Duck and Goofy and the whole cast of Disney characters Walt created in his mind then drew into animation to experience his “life” when the fact is Walts LIFE(spirit) was completely separate (holy)than his creations.

Walt “imparted” life into them but they are only “drawn” in 2 dimensions.Walt could draw himself into his cartoon but it could only be his “image” not his LIFE.The closets analogy to your fantasy world is Walt puts “some” of his thoughts(a very limited amount) into his creations mind HOWEVER it is according to their “nature”(2D) and character. Walts “creations” are not Walt at all.They “live” in Disney world not Walts world.They can never, ever transcend their world without Walt being the cause.

Walt is not “teaching” them anything he is drawing their experiences.The only thing they can “believe”(false knowledge) is their experiences.They can “know” absolutely NOTHING of Walts world unless he reveals it to them”through” the distorted lens of Disney world.They are only 2 dimensional creatures.They cannot experience anything beyond those 2 dimensions because that’s how they are drawn.Walt can choose to re-create them in 3D but it is still not Walt’s world ….it’s 3D simulation.They won’t really have depth they will only falsely perceive they do.

Their life is completely different than Walts. Everything they do is “caused” by Walt “according” to their nature and character (their name)Mickey “acts” like Mickey and not like Donald or Goofy…and this is where the analogy (as do all anologies) breaks down HOWEVER it is grounded in Truth.

Man can make choices by their “personal will” however that will is not free of cause.All the choices a person makes is according to their nature and character(their name) that THEY did not create only experienced.That is reflected in society and in the scriptures by the significance of what are called “names”…however just “calling” something by a name does not “change” it’s nature and character.As the Bard said “a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.”In other words things and people ARE what they are…THAT is what their “name” is and they “act” within the character of that name.

The fact is Walt is NOT Mickey.Walt could “put” some of himself “into” Mickey but they are not even “close” to being the same.Mickey is COMPLETELY dependent on Walt for every aspect of his 2 Dimensional life yet Walt is not dependent on Mickey at all.He can erase Mickey and friends with a flick of his wrist or crumple up his 2D world and toss it in the waste basket all without Mickey being aware of his circumstances .

If Walt was truly “THE creator” of ALL things and not just Disney world he could could cause Mickey to BE alive.The only boundaries would be the ones Walt created.Time and space or whatever dimensions or constructs Walt willed would be under Walts control and would be from a completely different perspective than the worlds he creates.If the creator formed time and space in such a way that the true perception of it can not be known except from the outside that would be much more reasonable than the religious- spiritual -mystic perception looking through a multitude of fish bowls with reality being bent out of perspective and distorted with the multitude of belief in faith of Belief System religions.

cont'd



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 01:38 PM
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If the creator created a creation that was so extensive it could not be accurately measured(observed) that would be a HUGE clue that the beings living in it are completely blind to the REAL reality.Every reasonable scientist knows they know next to nothing about the physical realm which CAN be measured in part.How much less can NOT be known about a realm that can not be perceived AT ALL!! yet billions “believe” they do.

They form “doctrines” of belief and call it Truth when it is anything but the Truth.Mankind knows LESS about the creator God than Mickey knows about Walt!!Mickey doesn’t have ANY tenants of “belief” about Walt.He doesn’t “pray” to Walt.He hasn’t made a Walt in his image.Mickey doesn’t believe Walt is experiencing life through him.Mickey is just living his 2D life completely unaware of Walt at all.

If Walt wants to put a thought into Mickey’s mind that he is just an “image” drawn on a piece of paper he would but Mickey has ZERO powers to discern what the hell Walt means.You’d have more success explaining the theory of general relativity to an ant.The fact is if there is a creator God they are under ZERO compulsion to explain ANYTHING to anybody…and I am positive they exercise that right often.

The fact is the constructs of religion-spiritualism-mysticism would be the last method the creator God would use to communicate Truth because it is ALL completely subjective and that CAN NOT be the nature and character of the creator God at all.They would have to be 100% objective Truth….no”interpretation” at all.The scripture name for that is “I will be what I will be”.Mankind can not say that about themselves and be speaking Truth only the creator God can.

Since man’s perception is subjective they are NOT the creator God because they do not have an objective nature and can only perceive life through their subjective nature…RELIGION…which is the amalgamation of all their experiences believed in faith through their Belief System (BS) religion.

For the creator God to experience “life” through it’s creation like humanity would be like
a man(Michelangelo) experiencing their life through a piece of art (the sculpture of David) they created.It’s backwards and sideways simultaneously.He chipped the image of David out of stone.The stone had ZERO life in it until it was formed into an image and even then that is all it is….a stone image.

It was ONE expression of the artist Michelangelo.The stone had no life in it until Michelangelo “formed” it and chipped off the “death” and still the sculpture David had no life outside of the stone.Michelangelo breathed life into the sculpture David but the fact is..it is still a dead piece of rock that LOOKS like a person(with a very small penis..probably a grower not a show her).

Mankinds whole perspective is only “belief”.They aren’t even the 3D stone sculpture David yet.They are 2 dimensional Mickey Mouse in Disney world drawn on a piece of paper.Mickey doesn’t call the shots.He’s just an ignorant mouse running around doing Mickey Mouse things living a Mickey Mouse life HOWEVER….the rumor is one day Mickey will not be a 2D mouse anymore and his "life is just a stage in a “bigger process”.If Mickey were a caterpillar his 3D stage would be a butterfly.The fact is Mickey can not KNOW the process of any of his “fates” process because he is IN them and can not observe them.

Mickeys 3D stage can not be to revert back to his 2D stage only to metamorphisize again…. over and over yet go nowhere.The fact is the life mankind is living is 1dimensional….death…everything in the physical realm leads to death.It is the only thing that is 100% inevitable and can be “known” .However all of creation will be “drawn” then sculpted then have LIFE breathed into it and be ALIVE and not “dead”…btw the creator God will not be seeking your opinion on any of it nor do they “need” you in any way to experience “LIFE” which is the ONLY thing they experience and they experience it completely with no lack.

One day when man is “fully formed” in phi/Phi(a golden ratio that NEVER resolves) they too WILL experience LIFE….and they won’t be the creator God however they will KNOW Life.That’s the Good News.



edit on 20-10-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing



Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Sure; why you distrust this understanding; 'god' is not made up of physical matter;


“Distrust!!!”…“Distrust”, is not the word I would use, more like “incomplete definition/information”; (although maybe that’s your point i.e. God trying to define itself through us…etc) not that I’m expecting you to write a 5000 word page essay, to describe IT, or anything…

But if I understand you correctly, you’re not saying that strong and weak forces just randomly crash/interact together, thereby producing God/Consciousness i.e. a substance which comes alive…right…? (tell me it aint true Vet…)




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Not trying to convince you of ITS existence; but I would recheck your washer machine (may have a mind of its own and birth a Prius you might not be able to pay taxes and insurance upon);


No, convince away…don’t let me stop ya…

I got a question though; if my washer machine produces a Prius, what will my Microwave produce…? Hopefully something a little cheaper to run…lol




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
let faith take the reigns here (REALLY). I cannot speak for you; I will let your Pastor or Priest do that for you (name and number).


“Faith”… ”Faith is for Nuns and Amateurs” lol…

And if you’ve seen that episode, there’s another great quote thrown in there, which goes…

“You think…?…I need someone who knows”…




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
I think you mean my MAIN ANSWER or implied; that you completely missed. We as humans are its expression; in the attempt to know its own being, allowing good and evil to thrive in an environment of non-judgment. You have a problem with this?


Your “OP title” was a question, but in your OP you kind of answered it (why would anyone do that lol)… I guess I thought you were answering the question, while simultaneously looking for further clarification (from others) on your own answer too it…my bad!!! lol

The only thing I have a problem with, is the line “allowing good and evil to thrive”…I wouldn’t use the word “thrive”; I would replace it with the word “exist”…other than that…no real problems at all…




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Crying foul here; (I completely agree with you) this discussion is not about 'judgement' THAT IS A GIVEN in as much as EVERYTHING is allowed by your Creator Being. So; freewill is out of the window (not a player here). There is not supposed to be any perfection, without imperfection THERE IS NO GROWTH.


Wow agreed, no growth without imperfections…well said…




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Did you pay money to have the ride of your life?


Can you re-phrase the question lol…

No wait, I’ll attempt to have a go at it…Well No; it shouldn’t really be about money, or lust (how did that get in there lol) it should be about “pure love” and freedom to live/learn/love etc…




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
I actually like the fact I understood Pythagorean Geometry (sacred geometry). I'm attempting to live in the moment (WHOA, this is hard) without my higher self yacking at me; as you say measuring seconds.


Cool; you recognized my subtle hints of Trig and Time, and took measures to decipher their meanings. Yes, Trig, Pyth10N and Sacred Geometry are important in setting up the conditions to have the experience, but not necessary (unless you’re building a Temple) to know/remember while your living the experience…As for time, it’s your lower self which is inclined to measure (keep an eye on it) it, but your higher-self says “I have all the time I need”…

- JC



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 03:33 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I know this wasn't directed at me in particular but you mentioned my post and I thought I'd clear the air.


Thanks…no need to clear the air though…you’re still a brother, in my eyes at least…


I just didn’t want to completely assume (puts words in your mouth etc) how you meant the word “reboot”, in all of its aspects, although some parts are fairly obvious and straightforward…

But your clarification is pretty much how I thought you were meaning it overall; especially your explanation about the “Higher Self” having no “reboot”, from its perspective…which is spot on IMO…




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Think of it like waves in the ocean, they rise and fall individually but as a whole the ocean is always there and always has been (metaphorically). We are the waves, God is the ocean. While every wave is unique in its own right, fundamentally they are all composed of the same "material", which is the ocean (God).


That was beautifully put…nice…

I suppose I should have a go myself…

God is like the first ever tree, made up of the eternal Spirit, from which everything else came forth. We are it’s seeds, which grow into our own god like trees. Each seed/tree is unique, but shares many similarities to the first tree; all are composed of the same material, which is The Spirit of life…




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
By "reboot" I mean that we (as the expressions of God with the fullness of him within us) are given a chance at a new start through reincarnation. Every time we are "born again", that is God "rebooting" on an individual basis.


I see it the same, in that a type of reboot takes place upon reincarnation… but I still believe the NT term “born again”, refers to a spiritual rebirth only, whereby one recognizes they’re in Gods Kingdom already, within this life time; which is to become aware of Self/Spirit, and receive the Holy Spirit, as part of the New Birth process…Receiving the “Holy Spirit” and becoming what the Bible terms “born again”, are both closely connected to each other; In fact, being “born of Spirit” and “born again”, are both one and the same thing…IMO

Also, if you think about it, everyone is in the “Kingdom of God” all of the time, (whether you are here on Earth, or somewhere else in Spirit or another planet etc) most are just not aware of it, because there’ not “born again” yet, and unfortunately, even those Christians who are “born again”, still aren’t aware, because they’re blinded by Christian doctrines and dogma etc…

You don’t “enter” the Kingdom, by being reincarnated and “born again” i.e. born as a new born baby…because your already always in the Kingdom IMO, and you certainly can’t perceive, know, or understand it, as a new born baby either. Which means, the only way you can “enter” it, is symbolically, by becoming aware spiritually that you’re in it, via an inner realization, which should usually be accompanied, by receiving the Spirit of God. This is the very reason why Jesus ties the terms “born again”, “entering the Kingdom”, and being “born of Water and Spirit”, together, in John 3.

Many people seem to think that that last part, about being “born of water”, is somehow connected to being “born again”/reincarnation (not that reincarnation isn’t real etc) from the mothers waters/womb, but IMO, it is the Spirit of God, which you receive, upon becoming Spiritually “born again”, which has flowing water characteristics to it; hence being born of Water and Spirit, at the same time. Jesus tried to point out that there is difference between being born of flesh, and being born of Spirit, by stating that “flesh gives birth to flesh, and Spirit gives birth to Spirit”…in John 3. By that statement, I believe Jesus was trying to point out, that being “born again”, is a spiritual event, and not a fleshy one…

Jesus said you must become “born again” in order to “enter” the Kingdom of God, but the word “enter” is really similar to the word “see” in those particular chapters, which talk about Gods kingdom. This is partly what I was trying to show, in my “Seek ye first the Kingdom” thread…Both the words “see” and “enter”, are more accurately translated as a knowing/perceiving and understanding; which is how one symbolically/metaphorically, “enters” or “sees” the Kingdom of God.

This becomes evident when you compare the real Hebrew translations, to those particular words (“See” and “Enter”) in those verses, relating to the Kingdom of God/Heaven.



- JC



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 05:02 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

I think born again can refer to both physical birth (conception) and spiritual birth (self-realization) at the same time. If you aren't born again spiritually within this lifetime (a.k.a. you live in ignorance until the day you die) then you must be born again physically for another shot at spiritual rebirth in your next life.

Like Jesus said, you must be born of both water (physically) and Spirit (self-realization) to enter (see) the Kingdom. We have all been born of water already, but only a few have been born of Spirit in this dark world. If you weren't born physically then you couldn't be born spiritually either. Both are a requirement in my opinion.

Other than that insignificant difference (which doesn't really matter in the end), I 100% agree with you.



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 09:31 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I think born again can refer to both physical birth (conception) and spiritual birth (self-realization) at the same time. If you aren't born again spiritually within this lifetime (a.k.a. you live in ignorance until the day you die) then you must be born again physically for another shot at spiritual rebirth in your next life.



Well, it goes without saying that you need to be born physically first, before you can ever have a chance at being born again spiritually.

But my premise is, that Jesus use of the phrase “born again” is referring to spiritual birth ONLY…I’ll explain further down in more detail, as too why I think this most likely the case…




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Like Jesus said, you must be born of both water (physically) and Spirit (self-realization) to enter (see) the Kingdom. We have all been born of water already, but only a few have been born of Spirit in this dark world. If you weren't born physically then you couldn't be born spiritually either. Both are a requirement in my opinion.


I believe Jesus uses the phrase “born of water and spirit”, because he was actually describing the attribute/character, of the Spirit itself i.e. being like water (flowing) (John 7:38)…and that the water part, is not referring to a physical birth.

But like I was saying in my last post, most people seem to think, it refers to the waters of the womb, and ultimately that of being born again, physically etc... Which people are quite entitled to believe…but there are further clues, which suggest what I’m saying is true…

For example…

Jesus said you must become “born again” in order to “enter” the Kingdom of God…and in some other verses it uses the word “see” the Kingdom of God…

But of course, a more accurate translation is…

You must become “born again” in order to know/perceive and understand the Kingdom of God…

So Jesus is clearly tying in the phrase “born again”, with a spiritual knowing and understanding, of what the Kingdom of God is…

Now like I saying in my last post, you/we/us are already in the Kingdom, all of the time, so being “born again” physically, can’t equate to entering/knowing the Kingdom of God… because your already always in the Kingdom, all of the time…And you also can’t, know/perceive and understand the Kingdom of God, by becoming a new born baby…

So entering/knowing the kingdom (which your always in) has to be about acquiring an inner Spiritual understanding and knowing, of what the Kingdom of God is…which just isn’t possible, for a new born baby to do …

Therefore, being “born again”, must be referring only, to a spiritual event, whereby you become “Born of Spirit” i.e. born again spiritually IMO, and then come to Realize/Know the Kingdom of God Within…


- JC



edit on 20-10-2014 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 10:16 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Jesus also refers to the Spirit as wind in John 3:8, a few verses after saying you have to be born again. What is wind? Air"flow", it flows just as water does, but the Spirit is not water, it only mirrors the waters attributes and vice versa just as the physical world mirrors our inner Spirit.

Why would Jesus say water "and" Spirit if water IS the Spirit? Are there two Spirits or just one? If only one (Holy Spirit) then why is Jesus repeating himself?

In my opinion he is differentiating the two as opposite yet mirror images of one another, needing both a physical and spiritual birth in order to know the Kingdom.

Both happen at birth but the world corrupts our understanding, which is why Jesus told us to change and be like little children again, a time before the world overtook us. A baby knows the Kingdom better than anyone, they live in the moment unlike our adult lives here on Earth. So I disagree that babies cannot know or understand the Kingdom.

What two components are needed for waves to be created and for the waters to become "living waters"? Both wind (Spirit) and water (material). Jesus is saying born again in both a physical and spiritual sense in my opinion.

What of those who are never born again spiritually in this life? Must they not be born again physically to have another chance at being born again spiritually? I agree that we are always in the kingdom, we've never left it.

Water "and" Spirit.

Ocean "and" wind.

Body "and" soul.

Mother "and" Father.

When the two come together you get the "wave" or Son of God. When both the air and water flow, you get living waters that "flow" (air/water mirror) out of your belly.

I'm only explaining my reasoning, not trying to prove you wrong.
I understand your reasoning 100%, he leans heavily toward the spiritual aspect of the teaching because he was giving inner insight, not outward. There is a mirror meaning physically through reincarnation and its inevitability. It "must" (be born of water...) happen and without it there is no spiritual rebirth/gnosis either.
edit on 10/20/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 10:54 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282
Veteranhumanbeing


Rex282: Respectfully….at the very best you are anthropomorphizing the creator God and making them into the image of man as if they “needed” some mass and molecules to exist and experience Life.

The facts are …if there is a creator God their life existence is wholly outside of the material realm.Your suppositions is like Walt Disney needed Mickey Mouse,Donald Duck and Goofy and the whole cast of Disney characters Walt created in his mind then drew into animation to experience his “life” when the fact is Walts LIFE(spirit) was completely separate (holy)than his creations.

The Absolute Unbounded Oneness has no physical form (not sure who 'them' are). What is wrong with using a metaphor of Walt Disney (a 2D creator God in his own right) as a great explainer (in the simplest of fashion) of major archetypal shenanigan goings on to the unwashed masses. I've edited your text here; although your argument is solid/sound and I do not disagree, just not applicable to what I am attempting to reveal here (muddy the waters).


Rex282: Their life is completely different than Walts. Everything they do is “caused” by Walt “according” to their nature and character (their name)Mickey “acts” like Mickey and not like Donald or Goofy…and this is where the analogy (as do all anologies) breaks down HOWEVER it is grounded in Truth.

So; why do you not understand that Walt Disney is the acting God force for this creation of his; and hit the mark as far as it resonates enough throughout 6 decades of scrutiny; one hell of a HIDDEN VALUABLE insight of his to correct or inform the paying masses? Using commercialism without ANY religious attachments was brilliant (no collection plate, but people pay for this insight unknowingly in the form of paper tickets).

Rex282: Man can make choices by their “personal will” however that will is not free of cause.All the choices a person makes is according to their nature and character(their name) that THEY did not create only experienced.That is reflected in society and in the scriptures by the significance of what are called “names”…however just “calling” something by a name does not “change” it’s nature and character. As the Bard said “a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.”In other words things and people ARE what they are…THAT is what their “name” is and they “act” within the character of that name.

Personal will; do you mean free-will or self-will? In any case you are still talking about the involuntary collection of super glue Karma. It is true that just by being 'unaware' of consequences of 'experience' you are not freed from Karma (why you really need to be aware of each moment you experience) unless you truly live in the breathing moment; almost impossible to achieve; if one did so there would not be any re-action to ACTS.

Rex282: The fact is Walt is NOT Mickey.Walt could “put” some of himself “into” Mickey but they are not even “close” to being the same.Mickey is COMPLETELY dependent on Walt for every aspect of his 2 Dimensional life yet Walt is not dependent on Mickey at all.He can erase Mickey and friends with a flick of his wrist or crumple up his 2D world and toss it in the waste basket all without Mickey being aware of his circumstances .

You bolster my supposition here; all of the cartoon characters are acting out set/rule/point archetypes of human behavior. Walt is a mischief maker in that he is exposing the nature of Karma disguised as something childlike/pertaining to when his whole intent was much greater; to disseminate information: basic hardcore truths regarding the human experience.

Rex282: If Walt was truly “THE creator” of ALL things and not just Disney world he could could cause Mickey to BE alive.The only boundaries would be the ones Walt created.Time and space or whatever dimensions or constructs Walt willed would be under Walts control and would be from a completely different perspective than the worlds he creates.If the creator formed time and space in such a way that the true perception of it can not be known except from the outside that would be much more reasonable than the religious- spiritual -mystic perception looking through a multitude of fish bowls with reality being bent out of perspective and distorted with the multitude of belief in faith of Belief System religions.

Walt is just a useful metaphor existing RIGHT BEFORE YOUR EYES (so common place has become invisible); infiltrated all human consciousness (whether you like it or not); a great story teller with stupendous messages, including "Bambi" and "Dumbo"; one involves the loss of innocence the other; persecution and redemption, the brilliance is in their simplicity.


edit on 20-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 11:46 PM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

To add to this, everytime we are born again physically we are a clean slate and knowing the truth is as simple as living in and perceiving the moment and knowing yourself (awareness), which is why babies are a perfect example, they live in the moment and aren't worried about distractions like a job or bills. They don't know much about the world around them but they know themselves, they are pure awareness.

The world corrupts us on some occasions under the right circumstances and you must repeat the cycle of finding yourself, this is inevitable in my opinion because "the wind blows where it pleases" and that's how it is with those who have been born of the Spirit.

My reasoning behind Jesus using born again in a mirror sense is because we will get lost at times and we will have to find ourselves again and reincarnation is inevitable hence must be born of water.

Like I said in my edit, I understand your reasoning behind understanding it in that way because Jesus focused more on the wind or Spirit aspect of the born of water/Spirit mirror and because Jesus was a Spirit(ual) teacher, but he also understood the inevitable physical rebirth that must happen just as you must be born again spiritually.

Do you believe that physical birth must not happen in order to enter the kingdom? You have been born again spiritually, but you also had to be born (again) physically to have found yourself now.

Reincarnation is a must and spiritual rebirth is a must, you must be born again (mirror definition) to enter the Kingdom of God. If we never left it then why is Jesus telling us we must enter or see it spiritually if not also physically? You cannot have one without the other in my opinion.

You must (inevitability) be born again of both water (physical) and Spirit (wind) in order to enter/see the Kingdom (wave/living water "within" you. The physical world is within your brain as well as outside of you; as above so below. The Kingdom (Spirit and water/body) is within you.
edit on 10/20/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 11:51 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282 in reply to Veteranhumanbeing:


Rex282: If the creator created a creation that was so extensive it could not be accurately measured(observed) that would be a HUGE clue that the beings living in it are completely blind to the REAL reality.Every reasonable scientist knows they know next to nothing about the physical realm which CAN be measured in part.How much less can NOT be known about a realm that can not be perceived AT ALL!! yet billions “believe” they do.

Perhaps it would come as no surprise that 'faith' or having belief in a dodgy system (be it scientific materialism or of the religious dogmatic) is all its meted out to be (pointless spinning). Wherein does the truth lie, is it within you (you know this already) or does one find themselves chasing rainbow ends.


Rex282: They form “doctrines” of belief and call it Truth when it is anything but the Truth.Mankind knows LESS about the creator God than Mickey knows about Walt!!Mickey doesn’t have ANY tenants of “belief” about Walt.He doesn’t “pray” to Walt.He hasn’t made a Walt in his image.Mickey doesn’t believe Walt is experiencing life through him.Mickey is just living his 2D life completely unaware of Walt at all.

Well, you described the human condition and its OWN relationship to an "invented creator" perfectly. So, there is one subtle difference; the human as 'gods' self expression actually tells/reinforces the 'concept' of god through worshipfulness "You do exist, see how many of us believe in you"; the human actually has the imagination and power to dream God into form. Mickey cannot serve the same function regards Walt (its creator); unless in numbers of through repeated viewing the celluloid (by humans) a miracle occurs; something magically pops into existence; its happened before.


Rex282: The fact is the constructs of religion-spiritualism-mysticism would be the last method the creator God would use to communicate Truth because it is ALL completely subjective and that CAN NOT be the nature and character of the creator God at all.They would have to be 100% objective Truth….no”interpretation” at all.The scripture name for that is “I will be what I will be”.Mankind can not say that about themselves and be speaking Truth only the creator God can.

So why bother; and why is there no clear cut truth provided (always subjective to those with imagination) objective truth involves measuring mass/form; which in itself is a slippery slope because even the most arcane object has consciousness; science does not understand that eternal state of being. What happens when this paradigm (we occupy at the moment) ceases to be profitable to 'god' aspect; (why continue to prolong the experiment) what happens then?


Rex282: for the creator God to experience “life” through it’s creation like humanity would be like
a man(Michelangelo) experiencing their life through a piece of art (the sculpture of David) they created.It’s backwards and sideways simultaneously.He chipped the image of David out of stone.The stone had ZERO life in it until it was formed into an image and even then that is all it is….a stone image.

That's interesting; what if everything man created came to life (animated)? What if the gigantic marble David attacked Michelangelo after the last chisel strike was made because its penis was too small (not from the original perspective I get it) but because of vanity? What if the Prius began attacking its unfortunate owners (perceiving itself as the 'muscle car' GTO, or a Shelby GT, it wanted to be but rolled off the assembly line as instead; a Sissy arse Whimp car bought by cry babies). Are humans creator gods in their right (OF COURSE THEY ARE) as we have imagination to create and change this world. Rodin would argue the fact that marble does not possess an "inner life" he thought the image within the stone (pre-existing) was what inspired him to break it free/self express.


Rex282: One day when man is “fully formed” in phi/Phi(a golden ratio that NEVER resolves) they too WILL experience LIFE….and they won’t be the creator God however they will KNOW Life.That’s the Good News.

Man is fully formed in the heavy matter 3D; that is its realm of expression/experience. It also exists in the higher dimensions, just not as solid. Humans are naturally creator Gods; as we are the Mini-me aspects or partitioned version of AUO; three trillion souls. Thank you for sharing many of your great insights Rex282; a pleasure to read.
edit on 21-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2014 @ 11:58 PM
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originally posted by: michaelbrux
at the end of the day...it MUST be about you somehow?

that belief hasn't ended and will probably continue one for thousands of years.





I am glad you can see that too.. The OP makes his blatant repetition of this theme in all posts and threads. The answer to all of his questions and problems is to simply remove his prideful satanic coat of self importance first, then his eyes could begin to see. But shame would surly follow, and he couldn't bear it. So sad to see pride do that to folks.
edit on 20-10-2014 by NoCorruptionAllowed because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:07 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus also refers to the Spirit as wind in John 3:8, a few verses after saying you have to be born again. What is wind? Air"flow", it flows just as water does, but the Spirit is not water, it only mirrors the waters attributes and vice versa just as the physical world mirrors our inner Spirit.






8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”




Jesus is not referring to the Spirit as being wind in John 3:8, he’s only drawing a parallel with how no one knows, how wind comes and goes etc. and stating that that is how things work with the spirit as well i.e. it come and goes like wind…he’s certainly not saying the Spirit is wind, in that verse IMO…

Although having said that, Spirit in the OT is described elsewhere as having attributes and characteristics of both Wind and Water…but I still don’t think Jesus is saying Spirit is Wind…



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Why would Jesus say water "and" Spirit if water IS the Spirit? Are there two Spirits or just one? If only one (Holy Spirit) then why is Jesus repeating himself?


Again Jesus isn’t saying that Spirit is Water, but only that it is has the attributes of being like water…

I don’t think Jesus is repeating himself; Personally I think it has something to do with how the Hebrew has been translated into English, in that particular verse…




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
In my opinion he is differentiating the two as opposite yet mirror images of one another, needing both a physical and spiritual birth in order to know the Kingdom.


Well, another clue to the “born again” phrase, is that it’s already inferring a first physical birth, that we all go through; and is therefore more likely to be referring only to the other (2nd) spiritual birth…which I think is more logical in what being “born again” implies…

And also, thinking about this more logically, you don’t have to be “born again” physically another time around, in order to experience, being “born again” spiritually, in this life time…even though some may have too etc…

You really go to think about the above statement, because it takes I while to get it…In other words, the phrase “born again” is not inferring that being “born again” physically, will automatically mean you will eventually be “born again” spiritually…because Jesus states that by Being “born again”, you will know and understand the Kingdom.

But really, the key is in the phrases to do with understanding and perceiving the kingdom, which can’t automatically or definitely be achieved by becoming “born again” physically, (it might happen eventually, as they get older, but it might not), whereas understanding/knowing the kingdom of God by being “born again” Spiritually, later in life, or even as young child (not baby), makes a lot more sense. Not sure what else I can add…





Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Both happen at birth but the world corrupts our understanding, which is why Jesus told us to change and be like little children again, a time before the world overtook us. A baby knows the Kingdom better than anyone, they live in the moment unlike our adult lives here on Earth. So I disagree that babies cannot know or understand the Kingdom.


I’m thinking of a new born baby, who can’t know or understand spiritually, what the Kingdom of God is yet, Spiritually speaking of course…

If babies do understand the Kingdom, then how do they not keep it with them, when they get older…?




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
What two components are needed for waves to be created and for the waters to become "living waters"? Both wind (Spirit) and water (material). Jesus is saying born again in both a physical and spiritual sense in my opinion.


Not sure how your delegating Water to only being (material), and Wind to only being (Spirit)…In trying to go with your reasoning, couldn’t water also be (Spirit)…i.e. in the form of water vapour…?



Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
What of those who are never born again spiritually in this life? Must they not be born again physically to have another chance at being born again spiritually?


Well of course they will get another chance, at being born again spiritually, I was never arguing against the premise…




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Water "and" Spirit.

Ocean "and" wind.

Body "and" soul.

Mother "and" Father.

When the two come together you get the "wave" or Son of God. When both the air and water flow, you get living waters that "flow" (air/water mirror) out of your belly.

I'm only explaining my reasoning, not trying to prove you wrong.


I’m not sure I’m following you here…

Although I will say this, the Spirit in the Old Testament is described as having both Wind and Water Attributes/characteristics…And of course H2o contains oxygen…hmmm




Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I'm only explaining my reasoning, not trying to prove you wrong.
I understand your reasoning 100%, he leans heavily toward the spiritual aspect of the teaching because he was giving inner insight, not outward. There is a mirror meaning physically through reincarnation and its inevitability. It "must" (be born of water...) happen and without it there is no spiritual rebirth/gnosis either


Thanks, I totally get that you understanding the greater spiritual meanings behind these things, and far better than most other’s I might add…

Sometimes I see connections at around 90 odd per cent, and then think it’s a done deal, so to speak, but then sometimes a new avenue can crop up and throw in a curve ball…so Yeah, question everything… even me lol


- JC



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:12 AM
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originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Lets say what you understand as God is just a field of energy, strong weak forces in expression; and informationally is made up of ones and zeros (this we understand). We as humans are its expression; in the attempt to know its own being, allowing good and evil to thrive in an environment of non-judgment. You would think after all that had been experienced by mankind/animals, flora would spell there is an anticipated end to this experiment (those being anything you can possibly think of: past, wars, attrition, scholarship, strife, organized religion too many to name), to the present. Is there enough of a future for us that "God" would continue to be interested (in ITSELF as us). Not a fatalist but come on; where is the tipping point when mankind joins the lemmings. Will mankind ever get another chance, perhaps in an alternate dimensional universe? Is there anything new that "God" is waiting for that we have yet to invent? I think its waiting for itself to respond. Greatest conspiracy ever. God says to the human "Why don't you show me you love me", Human says "Show me you exist first, then I might have a reason to".


Nice question.

As expression in sim cities, we're more like unattended avatars (you've alluded to this VHB)...I dislike the analogy, but, the hardware takes its own course - evolving, developing, mutating...the software has built-in fuzzz that ignites on contact with catalysing 'other' expressions (maybe split personalities competing for ir/rational moments) - I don't think the experiment is over by a long shot, dimensionwise...the conditions have always been there for 'random' acts of destruction of epic scale (blue marble style) and it may come to pass, but I think you're on the money with the sense of abandonment, maroonededness...CEO doesn't actually 'check-in', doesn't need to...generals and underlings are in attendance...they're playing a percentages game on the CEOs behalf, not so much tipping scales (like fundies would have us think)...slow and steady winning the race, gotta know our ABCs before writing that Ancient Mariner tale...too much information racing through brains...Walt had it down Aesop style (maybe reincarnate - Grimm not so much) I see myself as Goofy...

A99



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 12:35 AM
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originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
originally posted by: michaelbrux

Michaelbrux: at the end of the day...it MUST be about you somehow?
that belief hasn't ended and will probably continue one for thousands of years.

ITS ALWAYS ABOUT ME; why wouldn't it (I am the one point perspective reference) or the one going out on the limb and questioning my existence and how it relates to others experiences with a perceived yet to be disclosed 'god' force. I don't have a belief system (adopted as such are false). You obviously own one and its telling you there is no reason to pursue (something/anything).



NoCorruptionAllowed: I am glad you can see that too.. The OP makes his blatant repetition of this theme in all posts and threads. The answer to all of his questions and problems is to simply remove his prideful satanic coat of self importance first, then his eyes could begin to see. But shame would surly follow, and he couldn't bear it. So sad to see pride do that to folks.

Do I know you? as one hiding in the weeds and using another poster to piggy back an agenda? What theme is it you refer to? No, I don't wear a black cloak lined with multi colored threads; and yes I am one that follows the 42 truths 'Path on the Light' or "The Path of Fire and Light". Not sure; but if Satan wrote these he certainly is a 'hoodwinker'. He didn't create himself (do you think), probably had some help; (perhaps there is more than one God creator) live birthed from the 'evil' god, not the nice one.
edit on 21-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 01:11 AM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing

That is my entire point, and it is not to berate you in any way, only to persuade you into looking at things without expecting it to all be for your benefit. You make it all seem like you are still owed perfection like a gift you are waiting for, because you deserve it. I'm not trying to break your proverbial junk, although I know I can make it sure look that way. Apologies for that..

I might not even be seeing your intent as you meant it to be seen. Like hearing you speak in person has much less chance of being misinterpreted.. I am for you, not against you, although my style of writing leaves a lot to be desired. (I know)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 01:16 AM
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originally posted by: akushla99
originally posted by: veteranhumanbeing

akushla99: Nice question.
As expression in sim cities, we're more like unattended avatars (you've alluded to this VHB)...I dislike the analogy, but, the hardware takes its own course - evolving, developing, mutating...the software has built-in fuzzz that ignites on contact with catalysing 'other' expressions (maybe split personalities competing for ir/rational moments)

Unattended avatars; to be sure but the combined created 2D images/3D sculptures do the job describing as self expression. Deconstruct the hardware before it has a chance to duplicate/multiplies. Split personalities trying to find their whole or original source material.

akushla99: - I don't think the experiment is over by a long shot, dimensionwise...the conditions have always been there for 'random' acts of destruction of epic scale (blue marble style) and it may come to pass, but I think you're on the money with the sense of abandonment, maroonededness...CEO doesn't actually 'check-in', doesn't need to...generals and underlings are in attendance...they're playing a percentages game on the CEOs behalf, not so much tipping scales (like fundies would have us think)...slow and steady winning the race, gotta know our ABCs before writing that Ancient Mariner tale...too much information racing through brains...Walt had it down Aesop style (maybe reincarnate - Grimm not so much) I see myself as Goofy.

I don't think 'god' is done with this experiment; I just contemplate some obvious lacking of major INFORMATION bullit points: Its become less of a 'Dallas' rerun and more of a revamping the series (yes it happened), and as soap operas go, start killing off the characters for its own entertainment out of boredom. It is a truism, when incarnating we do not get a 'procedural manual' but instead something else (if truly lost) a bible. CEO will never check in; TOO EASY, thinks the answer is within us (its called sure to befuddle/mystify the seacher hunting for truths you have to invent/decipher all by yourself). Walt was a genius, no doubt and left so many clues (not dropping bread crumbs or corn variety). The generals take charge in absence of a leader, as the Romans conquered the known world with those they enslaved along the way (such irony). One of the brothers Grimm should have married Mother Goose; I wonder what the next generation of fairy tails would evolve from that collaboration? I do not see you as Goofy; more the Senior Stag, (Bambi's dad) "Oh that clean lush meadow of innocence FOOD can't possibly be dangerous" or the Fox character (I can at least get one over on a wooden boy that's trying to be human) Pinocchio; (definitely not Mr. Starbucks from Moby Dick). Fables; Aesop style, more parable like (Psalms); yes, Walt was a great re-interpreter of these. We both understand the blue marble for sure.


edit on 21-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 02:28 AM
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originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing



vethumanbeing:
Sure; why you distrust this understanding; 'god' is not made up of physical matter.



Joecroft: “Distrust!!!”…“Distrust”, is not the word I would use, more like “incomplete definition/information”; (although maybe that’s your point i.e. God trying to define itself through us…etc) not that I’m expecting you to write a 5000 word page essay, to describe IT, or anything..But if I understand you correctly, you’re not saying that strong and weak forces just randomly crash/interact together, thereby producing God/Consciousness i.e. a substance which comes alive…right…? (tell me it aint true Vet…)

Oh, well that's reasonable; (no recognizable 'god' as yet has knocked on your door and presented "the good news" in the form of a magazine subscription or a 1000 dollar Kirby vacuum) don't tempt/taunt me into blindly writing a treatise I know nothing about regarding this subject (nice try though). No I am not saying strong/weak forces randomly have car wrecks (accidents, collision insurance claims). I'm saying that without Chaos or random acts of violence within atomic structures/universal there would be no odd ball bad behavior that could/would have the potential to form solid matter. There is NO WAY a single particle could exist at the same time in two different places at once (that's just crazy talk).



vethumanbeing:
Not trying to convince you of ITS existence; but I would recheck your washer machine (may have a mind of its own and birth a Prius you might not be able to pay taxes and insurance upon)



Joecroft: No, convince away…don’t let me stop ya…
I got a question though; if my washer machine produces a Prius, what will my Microwave produce…? Hopefully something a little cheaper to run…lol

Dead food; microwaves are only useful in multi dimensional space travel (one hop/skips/jumps time and space). Cheapest way to cook a meal? Don't lower yourself to simple human fundamental basics; instead, you can become a Breathairian, (Dick Gregory reference) or eat the suns energy instead.



vethumanbeing:
let faith take the reigns here (REALLY). I cannot speak for you; I will let your Pastor or Priest do that for you (name and number).



Joecroft: “Faith”… ”Faith is for Nuns and Amateurs” lol…

And if you’ve seen that episode, there’s another great quote thrown in there, which goes…

“You think…?…I need someone who knows"

I pay no attention to your words unless you are quoting directly from any episodes of Monty Python's BBC TV production series or one of two full length feature film dramatizations: "In Search of the Holy Grail" or "Life of Brian" (feel free to quote 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" if puzzled).




vethumanbeing:
I think you mean my MAIN ANSWER or implied; that you completely missed. We as humans are its expression; in the attempt to know its own being, allowing good and evil to thrive in an environment of non-judgment. You have a problem with this?



Joecroft: Your “OP title” was a question, but in your OP you kind of answered it (why would anyone do that lol)… I guess I thought you were answering the question, while simultaneously looking for further clarification (from others) on your own answer too it…my bad!!! lol
The only thing I have a problem with, is the line “allowing good and evil to thrive”…I wouldn’t use the word “thrive”; I would replace it with the word “exist”…other than that…no real problems at all…

I answered my own OP statement (QUESTION) on page 2 (usually I have the answer beforehand) this time I jumped the gun (too excited) but realized the answer BEFORE ANYONE ELSE and wound up on page 2; I hope this clears things up. So, when you post an OP are you in Preacher mode (not really wanting answers, clarifications or insight) expelling information and hoping someone resonates with similar thoughts? Why would 'god' allow evil to live along side love unless it realizes there must be a polarity as the causal for change?




vethumanbeing
Did you pay money to have the ride of your life?



Joecroft: Can you re-phrase the question lol…

No wait, I’ll attempt to have a go at it…Well No; it shouldn’t really be about money, or lust (how did that get in there lol) it should be about “pure love” and freedom to live/learn/love etc.

Its not about the material; no one sneaks into Disneyland for free. You desired to be a human and if that involved convincing the higher-ups you would not waste this space afforded (many others were in the cue waiting) you apparently made a good enough argument. You have much more freedom on the other side; did you not realize this existence is a sort of prison, hampered by heavy gravity. You cannot conjure anything at a whim; takes true effort and imagination.


vethumanbeing:
I actually like the fact I understood Pythagorean Geometry (sacred geometry). I'm attempting to live in the moment (WHOA, this is hard) without my higher self yacking at me; as you say measuring seconds.



Joecroft: you recognized my subtle hints of Trig and Time, and took measures to decipher their meanings. Yes, Trig, Pyth10N and Sacred Geometry are important in setting up the conditions to have the experience, but not necessary (unless you’re building a Temple) to know/remember while your living the experience…As for time, it’s your lower self which is inclined to measure (keep an eye on it) it, but your higher-self says “I have all the time I need”

Subtle? sledge hammered you mean as a sensitive miscreant would interpret. I built a temple; I live in it (everyone asks me WHAT IS THIS PLACE) I say in answer "what do you think it is?". I still have a problem with the concept "live the moment" because that precludes even the 'present' (no reference points you see). I am deeply suspicious of my lower self; pretty sure its sneaky and possibly has an underhanded character due to bad genetics (yet to be determined); and even more so of my ironic higher self (VERY dangerous as its the one with the unbridled irreverent sense of humor).
edit on 21-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 03:25 AM
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originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing

That is my entire point, and it is not to berate you in any way, only to persuade you into looking at things without expecting it to all be for your benefit. You make it all seem like you are still owed perfection like a gift you are waiting for, because you deserve it. I'm not trying to break your proverbial junk, although I know I can make it sure look that way. Apologies for that..

I might not even be seeing your intent as you meant it to be seen. Like hearing you speak in person has much less chance of being misinterpreted.. I am for you, not against you, although my style of writing leaves a lot to be desired. (I know)

Left handed compliments here is all. Of course you are berating a messenger (you called it gave it a name). I make nothing seem anything to anyone (its their freewill to respond or resonate); you just happened to have an unfortunate negative experience.



posted on Oct, 21 2014 @ 04:08 AM
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Comment to 3NL1GHT3N3D1: regarding your signature
"Paul: Romes version of the Trojan Horse"
This is a huge concept that rings with major truth on so many levels.

edit on 21-10-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



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