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1,500 Pastors Defy IRS Ban on Preaching Politics

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posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:36 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
So, let's see, we can define the words "witch," "fire," "burning," "sacrifice" and so forth to mean whatever we wish.

Oh witches aren't witches, and fire doesn't burn, and compelling a church to keep up with its agreement, obey the law, and "render unto Caesar" ... is the same as murder and human sacrifice.

LOL. That faith-based reality is really paying off, isn't it?

Yes, the poor, victimized churches ... being burned at the "state" (that would actually be a little witty if it were intentional) because they're expected to obey the law.

It's good to see that ludicrous exaggeration and outright deception are alive and well.




You know you used historical studies as a position on another thread. Certainly then you must understand the historical, sociological and political/philosophical considerations behind the constitutional position of the church, on religion, and free speech of same.

You talk about churches obeying the law. The categorization of the church under the IRS status is actually illegal in any manner. The power to tax is the power to destroy. Not only is the constitution clear about the legal position of the church, the government and certainly not any non governmental body like the IRS can put in jeopardy the standing of religion. The power to tax is the power to interfere with this position. The free exercise thereof.




posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:39 AM
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originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: beezzer

The Church has every right to maintain a stance on any issue. What they do not have a right to do is to demand that society obey their chosen or given doctrine. Preaching about their perception of immorality is thier choice - but they run the risk of alienating people who disagree with the message.


But we allow politicians to create a doctrine that we have to live by. Isn't politics doing what churches historically did?


History shows, again and again, that the Church will bend it's position on issues when the populace outgrows the dogma. A hundred years ago,for example, divorce was so stigmatic that few people chose the option and many were demonized for doing so.


Churches are a mirror that reflect the moral image of society.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: Hefficide

Has politics become the new "church"?



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:48 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: Gryphon66

Oh what a load of rubbish. The only reason any cults perform charitable activities is because they are scared of the deity they believe in and want to please it so they don't burn and also so they can push their cult on more people.

Religions are businesses.


Are you announcing that your post is a load of rubbish? LOL.

I don't disagree with you (that much) on the reality of what religious organizations actually are, however, the idea of giving these bodies tax-exempt status was indeed originally based in the idea that they were going to provide charitable services to the community ... thus, the tax exemption was a way to acknowledge that and help the process along.

.



This is unconstitutional. The church is not required constitutionally to demonstrate a posture of charity or anything really to justify its status in any manner, to anyone government or otherwise.

It is clear the wealth of the church is being eyeballed by a blood sucking government and the money loving parasitical and pathological hypocrites that feast at the table of plunder. The Viking raiders of the day.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

Yep, and in many of your posts you try to change what words mean and levy ignorance against facts and ignore clear evidence.

Now that we've got our stylistic critiques out of the way ...

No one "categorized" any church under the IRS at anytime anywhere.

"The power to tax is the power to destroy" ... hmmm dramatic, but what does that have to do with anything.

Our Constitution says, again, two things, no establishment of religion (which I could just as easy argue that giving the tax breaks in the first place is doing) and no interference with the free exercise thereof.

If a church wishes to be tax-exempt, they apply. Free choice.

If they apply, they need to follow the rules. Rule of law.

If they don't follow the rules, they need to lose their tax free status. Consequence of actions.

Nowhere, anywhere is a church forced to do anything except follow the rules they agreed to.

Period.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:52 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

You really do just make stuff up as you go along.

If a church applies for tax-exempt status, then it has to obey the rules for tax-exempt status.

There is nothing in the Constitution which says "churches don't have to obey the law" is there?

No, there isn't.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 10:57 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Hefficide

Has politics become the new "church"?



Modern day political theory is the political church. Made and funded by a people that are no longer "jealous for their rights". Their priests are the new robber barons, their prophets prophesy for gold and their seminaries dot the land like a fast food chain that produced debt and ignorance tossed up from the bowels of its visionaries.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:00 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


They are required, buy unconstitional law, to claim a status. Where did you get the idea that they had an option?

They should have tossed this off back in the day but were asleep and government lovers. Now the wolves are prowling around the perimeter.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:02 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Hefficide

Has politics become the new "church"?



Modern day political theory is the political church. Made and funded by a people that are no longer "jealous for their rights". Their priests are the new robber barons, their prophets prophesy for gold and their seminaries dot the land like a fast food chain that produced debt and ignorance tossed up from the bowels of its visionaries.


Beautifully put!

Also, if you disagree, you will be branded a heretic!



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:12 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


It is a fact that being forced to claim status one way or another and then to be legally bound to that decision is in fact 1. an interference with free exercise and 2. amounts to an establishment of religion based on tax standing. Its establishing a legal definition, standing outside the right that puts the right at risk.....witch is unconstitutional.

The whole church IRS thing is an unconstitutional scam.




edit on 18-10-2014 by Logarock because: n



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:14 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Hefficide

Has politics become the new "church"?



Modern day political theory is the political church. Made and funded by a people that are no longer "jealous for their rights". Their priests are the new robber barons, their prophets prophesy for gold and their seminaries dot the land like a fast food chain that produced debt and ignorance tossed up from the bowels of its visionaries.


Beautifully put!

Also, if you disagree, you will be branded a heretic!



Yes I am heretic! And I stand upon the fagots and embrace the flame!



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:18 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Hefficide

Has politics become the new "church"?



Modern day political theory is the political church. Made and funded by a people that are no longer "jealous for their rights". Their priests are the new robber barons, their prophets prophesy for gold and their seminaries dot the land like a fast food chain that produced debt and ignorance tossed up from the bowels of its visionaries.


Beautifully put!

Also, if you disagree, you will be branded a heretic!



Yes I am heretic! And I stand upon the fagots and embrace the flame!



Stand by for you assignment to the nearest re-education camp.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:19 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Logarock

You really do just make stuff up as you go along.

If a church applies for tax-exempt status, then it has to obey the rules for tax-exempt status.

There is nothing in the Constitution which says "churches don't have to obey the law" is there?

No, there isn't.



What constitution are you reading?!

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...."

No law means no law.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Hefficide

Has politics become the new "church"?



Modern day political theory is the political church. Made and funded by a people that are no longer "jealous for their rights". Their priests are the new robber barons, their prophets prophesy for gold and their seminaries dot the land like a fast food chain that produced debt and ignorance tossed up from the bowels of its visionaries.


Wow. That had almost a C. S. Lewis ring to it.



“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”


And that is a valid point. Some of my atheist brethren and sisteren have really just replaced their former religion with a new religion of statist politically correctism with a strict ideology, a cannon of beliefs and positions you MUST hold, and an intolerance of views that go outside that strict cannon.

Note that a single direct question of whether or not leftist politically active groups should also lose their taxpayer exempt status for doing the same thing was dodged every single time. Not a single personal opinion was given. Certainly the tax code was quoted multiple times, but not a single opinion was given. I wonder what said people will be saying the next time we discuss a corporation using the tax code to hide money offshore given this. Will they be consistent or will they opine that this "loophole" should be stripped from corporations?



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 01:40 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

... And if they want to be political they can choose one of the classifications that allows for that, except they'd have to cough up some of that collection plate if they're going to act as lobbyists.

As pointed out multiple times here that's the real problem .... They want to have their cake and eat it too.

Funny for folks that are supposed to believe in responsibility and honesty how often churches just seem to be focused on money, eh?



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 01:48 PM
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a reply to: Logarock

Yes and no law has been made that governs how they worship, what hymns they sing, what tongues they jabber in, etc. etc.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 02:18 PM
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Government is trying to replace religion as the standard bearer for morality and behavior.



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Logarock

... And if they want to be political they can choose one of the classifications that allows for that, except they'd have to cough up some of that collection plate if they're going to act as lobbyists.

As pointed out multiple times here that's the real problem .... They want to have their cake and eat it too.

Funny for folks that are supposed to believe in responsibility and honesty how often churches just seem to be focused on money, eh?


Yet, like Planed Parenthood that separates their lobbying group form their money grubbing group, the churches being subpoenaed are not even named in the lawsuit but just have members who were part of he lawsuit. Yeah, following the same principle that leftist organizations do apparently. Just that for progressives there is one set of rules for one and one set of rules for another.






The law, passed last June, was criticized because it could be used to allow men to use women's bathrooms, among other objections. Opponents to the law had collected more than 50,000 signatures to place a repeal measure on the ballot this November, far more than the 17,269 required. However, the City of Houston moved to invalidate the majority of the signatures, arguing that some the petition gatherers had not met the legal requirements, thereby invalidating the signatures they gathered. Opponents of the law filed suit, and the city responded by issuing subpoenas against several Houston-area pastors, who were not parties to the lawsuit.





Paul Bettencourt, former Harris County Tax Assessor-Collector and the Republican candidate for State Senate District 7 (replacing Dan Patrick, who is running for Lieutenant Governor), was among many who were outraged by the city's subpoenas. "Mayor Parker and her leftist City Attorney Feldman are on a big government attack of pastors' free speech that would make George Orwell proud! Issuing subpoenas for sermons from pastors, not plaintiffs in a lawsuit, shows this City Administration to be the most anti-religious, anti-free speech in Houston's history."

Joe Slovacek, a prominent area attorney and Harris County Republican Party Treasurer pointed out that the city has another way to get the content of these sermons without compelling them through a subpoena. "If the Houston City Attorney reads the sermons, maybe he will have a change of heart. The sermons are online and readily available to all who wish to view them."



Political intimidation if there was any because they didn't just subpoena the sermons of pastors and churches who were on the lawsuit they subpoenaed all of those whom they considered a political enemy whether they were part of the lawsuit or not. Therein lies the controversy.
edit on 18-10-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-10-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 04:03 PM
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i don't think the secularists humanists and liberals realize that clergy preaching politics was what sparked and organized the revolution and played a huge part in the abolishment of slavery and the modern civil rights movement. it was never the founders intend to banish political speech from the pulpit.

then again the facts don't matter just anything they can use to accomplish thier own ideological end is thier principle of the moment.
edit on 18-10-2014 by stormbringer1701 because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-10-2014 by stormbringer1701 because: typos



posted on Oct, 18 2014 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: windword

Oh brother, give me a break!


"Whaa whaa! Pastors share their political opinions to their congregations, burn them!" Yet, the fact that politicians (and not religion) has screwed America and Americans over time and time again. That's OK, right? Because they're not religious...

I think you have an inane hatred towards religious folk, that's what I gather from your post/thread.



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