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originally posted by: PhotonEffect
1+1 = 2 is true, but is a concept.
I could argue, perhaps against widely held popular belief, that 1 + 1 = 1.
It really depends on what the underlying meaning is.
To deny the math is to deny reality and to deny reality is to deny math.
There is no distinction, you cannot have one without the other.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
a reply to: Korg Trinity
To deny the math is to deny reality and to deny reality is to deny math.
There is no distinction, you cannot have one without the other.
No one here is denying math, friend. Just that it's the "language of the universe". I don't see it that way.
But no reality without math? That's a bit of a stretch in my world.
Good talk though.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
a reply to: Korg Trinity
No that it makes a difference to what you mean by dimension. Because dimensions are human concepts. Mere descriptors of physical space.
My guess is the universe existed before the idea of a dimension.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
a reply to: Korg Trinity
Says who?
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
a reply to: Korg Trinity
You've had to rely on circular reasoning to push your belief. You want so badly for the universe to be a mathematical structure.
Yes, Math has aided in the revealing of orderliness within in the universe. That's where it should stop though. The speed of light is not math. It is only defined by it. We use math and other languages to define the universe. This is more reasonable.
You might as well say that gravity is a human concept and expect to float away.
And for aliens on the planet Quibble, dimensions would be Quibblian concepts.
On the planet Zarg, dimensions would be Zargonian concepts.
This doesn't make them arbitrary or simple figments of the imagination, they are a reflection of reality as we have consistently observed it. You might as well say that gravity is a human concept and expect to float away.
originally posted by: Astyanax
Is math invented or discovered?
Sometimes scientists create methods specifically for quantifying real-world phenomena. For example, Isaac Newton formulated calculus for the purpose of capturing motion and change, breaking them up into infinitesimally small frame-by-frame sequences. Of course, such active inventions are effective; the tools are, after all, made to order. What is surprising, however, is their stupendous accuracy in some cases.
Even more astonishing, perhaps, mathematicians sometimes develop entire fields of study with no application in mind, and yet decades, even centuries, later physicists discover that these very branches make sense of their observations.
A pattern emerges: humans invent mathematical concepts by way of abstracting elements from the world around them--shapes, lines, sets, groups, and so forth--either for some specific purpose or simply for fun. They then go on to discover the connections among those concepts. Because this process of inventing and discovering is man-made--unlike the kind of discovery to which the Platonists subscribe--our mathematics is ultimately based on our perceptions and the mental pictures we can conjure.
Not only do scientists cherry-pick solutions, they also tend to select problems that are amenable to mathematical treatment. There exists, however, a whole host of phenomena for which no accurate mathematical predictions are possible, sometimes not even in principle.
mathematics itself is limited, as Austrian logician Gödel famously proved.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
Even more astonishing, perhaps, mathematicians sometimes develop entire fields of study with no application in mind, and yet decades, even centuries, later physicists discover that these very branches make sense of their observations.
Key take away: Well that's a relief. So what were these "fields of study" for before it was discovered they actually had some applicable use?
A pattern emerges: humans invent mathematical concepts by way of abstracting elements from the world around them--shapes, lines, sets, groups, and so forth--either for some specific purpose or simply for fun. They then go on to discover the connections among those concepts. Because this process of inventing and discovering is man-made--unlike the kind of discovery to which the Platonists subscribe--our mathematics is ultimately based on our perceptions and the mental pictures we can conjure.
Key take away: I'll let this tidbit speak for itself. (Korg: this one's for you)
Not only do scientists cherry-pick solutions, they also tend to select problems that are amenable to mathematical treatment. There exists, however, a whole host of phenomena for which no accurate mathematical predictions are possible, sometimes not even in principle.
Key take away: You don't say... (Korg?)
originally posted by: Korg Trinity
There is only two phenomena to my knowledge that defy mathematical description... 1. A Singularity and 2. Quantum Foam
Everything else in the universe can be described mathematically 100% Including consciousness itself.
originally posted by: mbkennel
originally posted by: Korg Trinity
There is only two phenomena to my knowledge that defy mathematical description... 1. A Singularity and 2. Quantum Foam
Everything else in the universe can be described mathematically 100% Including consciousness itself.
Wait---a singularity can be handled just fine mathematically! Poles and other hairier objects in complex analysis have been known for a long time.
It's just that physicists experience with these in the mathematical theory is that they represent failures of the validity of the theory close to them and the results of the theory are not physically correct in that case.
Consciousness? Uh, there's a whole lot more work to go there, and consciousness may not be a singular unique phenomenon.
Not sure about 'quantum foam' but I bet it is a description of certain hypothesized field theory/string theory variants and the theories have a mathematical representation.