It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Criminalizing IS support and the disillusioned return home. Two teens wish to return from Raqqa.

page: 4
10
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 01:13 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho




And you ignored the rest of the paragraph it was a tiny blip you focused on because you thought you had a point, you cherry pick.


And yet your point was proven wrong as it doesn't matter how wealthy you are you still have to pay for the crime you commit. Yes some wealthy people are able to get away with things they still have to pay whether it be legally or financial you never get away from things scott free which is the point you seem to have missed.




Jimmy Hoffa.


I am pretty sure Jimmy Hoffa paid for his in a different way...say like nobody has ever found his dead body.




Beyond that there is no argument or any reason for you to continue your nonsense.


Nonsense because you don't like to be shown that you aren't always right...hard to deal with others actually having a clue isn't it?




posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 01:28 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho

More Einstein

On Internationalism
New York Evening Post, 26 March 1921; Einstein 1933, 9–10



Of course, science is suffering from the terrible effects of the war, but it is humanity that should be given first consideration. Humanity is suffering in Germany, everywhere in Eastern Europe, as it has not suffered in centuries. Humanity is suffering from too much and too narrow a conception of nationalism. The present wave of nationalism, which at the slightest provocation or without provocation passes over into chauvinism, is a sickness.

The internationalism that existed before the war, before 1914, the internationalism of culture, the cosmopolitanism of commerce and industry, the broad tolerance of ideas—this internationalism was essentially right. There will be no peace on earth, the wounds inflicted by the war will not heal, until this internationalism is restored.

[Does this imply that you oppose the formation of small nations?]

Not in the least. Internationalism as I conceive it implies a rational relationship between countries, a sane union and understanding between nations, mutual cooperation, mutual advancement without interference with a country’s customs or inner life.




. . I am a convinced pacifist. . . . I believe that the world has had enough of war. Some sort of an international agreement must be reached among nations preventing the recurrence of another war, as another war will ruin our civilization completely. Continental civilization, European civilization, has been badly damaged and set back by this war, but the loss is not irreparable. Another war may prove fatal to Europe.


You really think Einstein as a pacifist would think that allowing people to go around joining wars all over the world and come back to US without consequences would be a good thing.

I will give you that you are good at arguing but you are over exaggerating your arguments very far when you say that people are like Nazi or Stalin because they do not want their citizens going around the world killing people without consequences.

edit on 14-10-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 02:01 PM
link   

edit on 14/10/14 by ccseagull because: double post



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 02:03 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho



I don't agree. They are old enough to know. And if they are from Bosnia then they know fully well the power of extremists. At this age of their lives it is now part of their culture. They knew what they were doing. I thought long and hard about my answer. I thought about my own daughter (14 yrs old). My goodness but where has common sense and thought for your fellow man gone? These girls knew what they were doing. No one can convince me of anything different. Yes they are young, yes they are women. I abhor how women are treated by these terrorists. But when do we stop rescuing people for their stupid decisions. I'm not talking about stealing gum at the store or assaulting someone - these girls went to a country that degrades women, treats women like they are zero nothings and are killing fellow Muslims and Christians. They went to a country to support the exact same kind of actions that occurred in Bosnia. I don't care if they are caucasian. Extremists come in every colour, race, ethnicity. It's the evil in the mind that now has to face the consequences.

So now every poor and innocent little girl that goes to these countries should be rescued because they are female? If anything you are allowing extremist thinking to breed within the female population around the world that supports extremism. Open the doors wide open - their children will then fill our countries with extremism here. I am NOT putting down true Muslims - I respect true Muslims and think they are amazing.

I also speak from the viewpoint of protecting my country. Why would I allow anyone back that threatens my family? My friends? My fellow country people? Not a chance. It doesn't work that way. You can't pick and chose what benefits you want to gain from and then when things don't work out you get rescued. Yes this is a harsh stance but it's basic survival of people and country hood.

This does not make me a barbarian. It makes me protective and careful. Of course they deserve humane treatment. They had that in their first country. Heck the way you feel we may as well invite all terrorists who tell us that they don't have decent food or nice beds.

Yeah, sorry I am not empowering the jihadists. In fact I don't care whatever psychological tricks they try whether it be beheading videos or rumours of attacking other countries - the point is they are evil and we don't need these kind of thinking in any country. They can stay where they are. Plain and simple. No one needs to fall for ridiculous talk like that - their goal is to eliminate others that don't believe as they do. That's genocide. And so they can speak nice or threaten or try to terrify me but the basic truth is they are evil.

Where do we draw the line? When it comes to protecting our (whatever country) country then yes a harsh stance must be taken. And who knows maybe THAT will teach others who are contemplating such crazy thoughts not to do it.

I respectfully disagree with your response to mine.
edit on 14/10/14 by ccseagull because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 02:10 PM
link   
I would let them stay there.

What did they think it would be like?
Hope they enjoy the rest of their life being treated worse than a farm animal.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 02:53 PM
link   
a reply to: LittleByLittle


You really think Einstein as a pacifist would think that allowing people to go around joining wars all over the world and come back to US without consequences would be a good thing.


Well, Einstein would probably be disappointed that the US is involved in those wars at all. Let alone people leaving to fight in them.

The distinction, which I think Einstein would support however, is that a war is a war, but a "surgical strike" or "military action" is not, so if someone goes and fights in a war, that their home country is not involved in, they are not committing any treasonous act. And if the home country does not declare war on a nation, how can they claim anything against a person who fights in it.

The only reason they get away with it is because of "terror", god knows how you can legally declare war on an ideology though. Strange times we live in indeed. I think Einstein would be quite disheartened at the prospect.




I will give you that you are good at arguing but you are over exaggerating your arguments very far when you say that people are like Nazi or Stalin because they do not want their citizens going around the world killing people without consequences.


The comment was a very distinct reference to nationalistic ideals, and if imposed, would pit each nation against each other, and also place every citizen in the "you're either with us or against us" boat. That is very, very, very dangerous. A world where each nation will disown its citizens at the slightest hint of dissent. Whether or not thats what the comment intended, its where that type of thinking breaks down into.

Keep in mind we are talking about wars, not wars against the home nation. The US is not at war with any nation right now (as far as I know), and neither is Austria the country of the topic at hand.

If a citizen goes to join a nation that is at war with the home country, fighting on the other side, than fine. They deserve a charge as a traitor. Obvious. They also deserve the chance to leave and leave behind their rights. Makes sense too. If they renounce their citizenship (perhaps they have dual) or they seek to join their families it's entirely understandable. The US in WWII put people in camps in fear of sympathizing with their nation of descent.



I will give you that you are good at arguing but you are over exaggerating your arguments very far when you say that people are like Nazi or Stalin because they do not want their citizens going around the world killing people without consequences.


There was an American, I believe he was Asian-American, that joined the Libyan rebellion back when that happened. He was lauded on CNN and FOX News as a hero for fighting with the "rebels". Of course, they were rebels in that case, because they were going to depose Ghdaffi, but only a few months earlier they were Al Queda, or terrorists, and afterward a number of them make up IS, or are in the same networks.

Hmm. Confusing isn't it.

So is he a hero, or should he have his citizenship denounced. If someone fights for an ally, how is it any different than joining the military. If they fight for an off the books enemy, a trade adversary, but the home country is not at war with them, do they have that right? They are fighting another war in another country which the home country is not officially involved in.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 02:58 PM
link   
a reply to: ccseagull


I also speak from the viewpoint of protecting my country. Why would I allow anyone back that threatens my family? My friends? My fellow country people? Not a chance. It doesn't work that way. You can't pick and chose what benefits you want to gain from and then when things don't work out you get rescued. Yes this is a harsh stance but it's basic survival of people and country hood.

This does not make me a barbarian. It makes me protective and careful. Of course they deserve humane treatment. They had that in their first country. Heck the way you feel we may as well invite all terrorists who tell us that they don't have decent food or nice beds.




Im curious if you saw the part where 50-100 or so people who actually fought in the Syrian war for IS(IS) made it back to Austria simply because they remained clandestine in their actions. So politics wise, the country isn't any safer simply because the girls can't get back, because of politics, actual fighters of IS(IS) made it back to the country unscathed. The intelligence agencies can watch but they don't make arrests. A lot of time its so they don't compromise their networks, but they in turn file reports and give intelligence to governments to effect policy.

This is the reason for some of the recent legislation changes in Austria which I highlighted throughout the thread. If you had to choose from the jihadi fighters, or the silly girls, Id imagine you'd choose the latter.

But in any case, I can respectfully disagree with your opinion. You're entitled to it, and I do understand some of your points, I just don't see them myself.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 03:03 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho

They dont belong here. They are NOT one of us any longer. They betrayed everything the west stands for. I say dont let them back.

It never ends. Frustrated people in the west talk all this BS and make impressionable youths support our enemies. Then when these young people are finally there, they realize that with all the evils of the west its still the best place on earth for fair ideals and general happiness. Its too late at that point and they are stuck between lala land and hell.

I would send everyone supporting ISIS over to see what its all about. Like a reality check safari. Its one thing to be critical of our faults. Its another to invent virtues and attribute them to monsters.

Every token apologist and compulsive "west" trash talker should take into account that they had something to do with the decision these girls made....and how many more...
edit on 10 14 2014 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 03:31 PM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h


And yet you said this...



Yes, well you have to read full sentences and paragraphs. Unfortunately I have to address you again in this thread, although I really didn't want to, I need to clear up your blatant disregard for facts, and context.

You either are trolling the thread, or you are a young kid in grade school, since you completely miss context of every argument in this thread. I can't see how someone could intentionally make so many errors simply grasping very simply concepts, keeping things in context.

Ive said numerous times now, the intelligence agencies in Austria, including foreign agencies hired to spy in country, are only able to watch, document and report on incidents. They do not have strike teams, or swat teams or officers to walk around and arrest people. They don't have jails or penitentiaries. (well, besides black sites that is).

So yes, dozens of fighters from Austria were recruited, made it there and fought, and returned unscathed, under the watchful eye of the intelligence community. This is pretty normal and has been going on for years, will continue to go on. Quite possibly the fighters travelled under false documents, or they went with alternative reasons, to disguise their true intentions. Its only because the girls got international attention, and media popularity which makes their case different, as local PD and border agents will be aware of them and their movements. Also, they've easily made it to any anti-terror watch lists that exist, if not arrest on sight orders.




And yet your point was proven wrong as it doesn't matter how wealthy you are you still have to pay for the crime you commit.


Again, I don't want to continue the debate with you, or childish argument (whatever you might call it), lacking insight on context utterly and completely.




And yet your point was proven wrong as it doesn't matter how wealthy you are you still have to pay for the crime you commit.


The discussion, argument, conversation is over. Done dead. Stop. Really. You are not even in the same conversation. Its like talking to a mentally deficient person. The point I made is that the law applies to different people at different times, differently. Thats all. Rich and power, wealthy, do receive special treatment in some scenarios as highlighted. You can't simply highlight one or two cases when a dozen were posted and say "OH LOOK HAHA HOFFA DIED YOU'RE WRONG!" you just look silly. That's not the point. Never was.

And again, again you cherry pick. Only touching on something you can troll with.




Nonsense because you don't like to be shown that you aren't always right...hard to deal with others actually having a clue isn't it?


The only thing you have displayed in this thread is total ignorance on the subject and points made, CONTEXT, the inability to discern the English language, and the unwillingness to address anything that doesn't fit with your narrative. Cherry picking.

I wouldn't be surprised if you were starring your posts from burner accounts...



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 03:47 PM
link   
Why do you all think that they want to come back because they don't like it there?

Maybe they do like it there..but..

They are apparently both pregnant..

They have access to twitter and facebook?!

They are allowed to go back?!

Yeah sounds legit and not dodgy at all.


edit on 14-10-2014 by Nimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 03:48 PM
link   
To anybody that says to let them rot in the bed that they made, I would ask...

What if it were your daughter?

Forget the whole"my daughter wouldnt do that" argument. What would you do? let her rot in the bed that she has made or do everything possible to get her back? including going and getting her ass yourself?

You read posts about teachers having sex with students and everybody says those poor teenagers don't know what they are doing. Yet here all of a sudden these young girls know exactly what they are doing?

I don't think anybody here has said they should be let off scot free, just shouldnt be left to the barbarian butchers.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 03:57 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho

You really are a wizard with words making a lot of stories on how it could go wrong by choosing to over exaggerate what could happen if you allowed it to be very far corrupted.

When faced on a duality scale where idea in more in the middle between freedom vs oppression (corruption) you take it to the extreme that it will be a slippery slope to corruption/oppression.

But these people joined a system that was be like us or die (total genocidal oppression) and you want these people to be able to come home without any consequences. There is a clear hypocrisy here from my point of view.

One the scale of freedom of citizen vs oppression of citizen (where oppression in this case is making sure people who have joined ISIS are not allowed in) for the Austrian government to protect it's citizen you are totally on the freedom of citizen extreme even if it has consequences for other Austrian citizens.

I do not care who have been called hero or not by the western media since from my point of view if you join a war of aggression (even when it is called freedom revolution) you are a murderer if you kill someone no matter how the news spin it.
edit on 14-10-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 04:06 PM
link   
a reply to: LittleByLittle


But these people joined a system that was be like us or die (total genocidal oppression) and you want these people to be able to come home without any consequences. There is a clear hypocrisy here from my point of view.


I never said come home with no consequences.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 04:09 PM
link   

originally posted by: tinner07
To anybody that says to let them rot in the bed that they made, I would ask...

What if it were your daughter?

Forget the whole"my daughter wouldnt do that" argument. What would you do? let her rot in the bed that she has made or do everything possible to get her back? including going and getting her ass yourself?

You read posts about teachers having sex with students and everybody says those poor teenagers don't know what they are doing. Yet here all of a sudden these young girls know exactly what they are doing?

I don't think anybody here has said they should be let off scot free, just shouldnt be left to the barbarian butchers.



I would go get them if I could safely and if they really are ready to go but at the same time not 100% trust them anymore since they have done something extreme. That does not mean I think they should be allowed to walk freely in Austria anymore. I am happy that it is not my situation both as the parent or the government. When comparing their right to freedom vs "other people rights to not be disturbed" by them I will side with the "other people rights to not be disturbed by them".



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 04:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: boncho
a reply to: LittleByLittle


But these people joined a system that was be like us or die (total genocidal oppression) and you want these people to be able to come home without any consequences. There is a clear hypocrisy here from my point of view.


I never said come home with no consequences.



From my point of view. If I was in their situation and really could get away and wanted it and the circumstances where as bad as told. Then 10 years in prison in a clean facility would probably look pretty nice compared to the situation that is so bad. I think Isis is using this to show the ones that have joined them that the world is against them for their choice so they do not make trouble. A piece in the propaganda war.
edit on 14-10-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 04:17 PM
link   
a reply to: tinner07




What if it were your daughter?


If my daughter turned out to be a sociopath I would have to distance myself from her. If she carried out an act of horror and violence I would not be at her side. If she betrayed our society and our values I would not stand with her. She would always be my daughter and it would hurt me every second of every day. The right thing to do is to stand by the principals I raised her by. If she chose differently it would hurt me, but it would be her decision alone. She would HAVE TO deal with it.

This is no "small" thing. Its not even a difficult but still forgivable "big" thing like driving drunk and killing people by accident. This is outright a conscious violation of trust and betrayal. They consciously chose to help those trying to hurt us.


edit on 10 14 2014 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 04:51 PM
link   
a reply to: tadaman

I guess if they garnered these thought on their own, with 0 outside influence.

Made the trek to whatever ISIS outpost they travelled too with 0 help financially or logistically from anybody and then could be proven that they knowingly helped those that they knew wanted to hurt us I could agree with your decision. And like you said it would be hard everyday.

But if those girls were not subject to some brainwashing from a local mosque I'll be a monkeys uncle. Not to mention help getting where they went.
I';m sure they were told of the suffering of the children and their actions would help those in pain.

I havent had time to read much about them, did they come from stable homes?

What about the young girls that are runaways and picked up at bus stations by chicken-hawks and lured in to prostitution and sex slavery. Should we turn our backs on these children also? It was their decision to run away and they made the decision to participate in the sex trade?

I think a young lady from a stable home who has been taught right from wrong and good morals and values would be harder to convince than a young impressionable girl with no adult figure to look up to in her life.

People climb mountains because they like the risk involved, but when stranded we send in the rescue squads, should we let them die as well, it was after all their decision to take the risk. I know that may be a bad analogy for helping ISIS but hopefully you get my point.

We always bail people out of their poor decisions.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 04:58 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho




I wouldn't be surprised if you were starring your posts from burner accounts...



Well I would be.




The only thing you have displayed in this thread is total ignorance on the subject and points made, CONTEXT, the inability to discern the English language, and the unwillingness to address anything that doesn't fit with your narrative. Cherry picking.


Why because I didn't blindly agree with you?

I have a very good ability to understand English, and speak it, so what's your point?

Do you really think your in a position to talk about someone unwilling to address anything that doesn't fit their narrative, and cherry picking because your track record speaks for itself.



I wouldn't be surprised if you were starring your posts from burner accounts...



Well then please tell the mods and let them figure it out...and don't let the answer hurt you too bad.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 05:02 PM
link   

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: tadaman

We always bail people out of their poor decisions.


I think you are 98% correct but this is something else.

Here it's possible that you are playing with a trojan horse and that you are gambling with lives in future.
edit on 14-10-2014 by Nimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 06:31 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho
A pretty stupid thing to do. But if we punished every teenager or for that matter anybody for doing some stupid thing with living out there consequences, or basically a death sentence. I do believe the total human population of earth would be somewhere around zero.

Lets just say people have been doing stupid things for untold eons and generations, and if somebody or some other power did not show them the error of there way, or they did not learn it themselfs through more up close and personal ways, well then how would they learn and know not to do such stupid things in the first place? The answer is they wouldn't. But in all, whatever. I do believe there is more preeminent problems out there then two teenage girls who one day decided to go play jihad because they seen it on the TV or on the internet, and thought it would be a cool thing to do.

As for this whole sexual jihad thing that some females are doing....Whatever floats peoples boats I guess.



new topics

top topics



 
10
<< 1  2  3    5 >>

log in

join