It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Criminalizing IS support and the disillusioned return home. Two teens wish to return from Raqqa.

page: 3
10
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 08:07 AM
link   

originally posted by: boncho

Did they realize the weight of their decision when they made it? Who knows. They claim as much but a young mind is lacking certain things to really grip the full reality of something like that.



Well,
You can realize intellectually just how serious your decision is.
Most people have no problem making decisions like turning away from family, betrayal, supporting murder, rape and even committing those acts. They usually have full mental understanding of what they are doing and don't care who they hurt.
It's usually later on when these happy rebels realize that it's not "fun" anymore or get to the consequences of their actions that they suddenly are too young to understand what they've done.




posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 08:09 AM
link   
a reply to: boncho




They were recruited in a mosque, not at a terrorist training camp airing beheadings and suicide bombers 24/7.


So they haven't seen a newspaper, or a news report on television, because it really is hard to not know what is happening there.

The problems in Syria are not something that just started and the reports aren't just happening.




You have evidence she killed someone? Please present. Any other rebuttal, please see the above paragraph.


Did I say she killed anyone?

No I didn't so let's get that straight.



Strange, well connected families, politicians, etc, would tend to disagree with you.


Oh really?

Do you remember the Menendez brothers?

www.crimelibrary.com...

How about Cameron Douglas? Son of actor Michael Douglas...


Michael Douglas' son will have to finish serving his nearly 10-year prison sentence after an appeals court Monday sided with a judge who punished him severely after Douglas was caught with drugs in prison.


www.nydailynews.com...

And what about Marlon Brando's son?


During their stay in May of 1990, Cheyenne told Christian that Drollet had been abusing her, which was a ploy for attention with little basis in truth. Christian, himself fueled by alcohol, then shot Drollet in a drunken rage, later claiming it was an accident. In January 1991, Christian Brando was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and received a 10-year sentence. He served his time at California Men's Colony at San Luis Obispo and was released in 1996.


www.biography.com...

And what about sports figures that are well known but now sit in a jail cell because of the laws they broke, as I said before being wealthy and well connected doesn't give you free reign to break the law. You still have to pay the price for breaking the law.



And even on the bottom rungs of society, yes in fact (it's not a free pass,but), there are alternative measures for youths, it's called youth offenders or young offenders law. In Austria it also referred to as young offenders laws or for her age she is seen as a mündiger Minderjährige:


And what are the laws for helping terrorists organizations, and you do understand that depending on the crime a minor can be tried as an adult. So since you are trying to defend these girls what is Austrias laws on helping terrorists and what are the penalties?

Also I never said they have to be sent to an adult prison or be tried as an adult, but they should pay for committing the crime of helping a terrorist organization, and by going to Syria they went there with the purpose of helping a terrorist organization...Btw something they admitted to doing.

From your OP...



Two Austrian teens went to Syria with the hopes of supporting IS in their Jihadi war


Sorry they went there to help with a jihadi war...they knew what they were doing and should have to pay for that.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 08:17 AM
link   

originally posted by: searching411
These two females came from Muslim families, right? They somehow made it to help the IS movement. They became sexual toys for the terrorist. Now they are pregnant. Are we going to hear that these girls have become victims of HONOR KILLING?


If their families did not care for them then they would not allowed the information out and would have seen them as dead already. Some Muslim families are screwed up, some are not and would fit in anywhere in the world since they are nice people concerned about each other.

One reason I feel more empathy for the families of the girls than the girls.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 08:27 AM
link   
Doesn't Austria still have National service/conscription,
Lets see if they are sincere enough and let them do productive Military service and re-qualify as western citizens.

Hell has no Fury and all that.
Fox.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 09:23 AM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h


So they haven't seen a newspaper, or a news report on television, because it really is hard to not know what is happening there.
The problems in Syria are not something that just started and the reports aren't just happening.


No, but like I said, there were a number of drones dropped on school children back then and gathering support became easier and easier for jihadi groups. 2,400 dead in drone strikes., 168 children killed in drone strikes., and even after that, US exempts drone strikes in S&I from standards on civi deaths.

Mind you the last link is something recent, my point is obvious, with a giant list of dead muslim children, a war raging with tons of people being massacred, various groups fighting, there was no way to know exactly who or what was going on at the time. Even if they did, there is enough crap on both sides to rally people, which is something that needs to be understood.

You also have a very one sided archaic view on how people interact in their communities. Myself, I do not have TV programming in my house. My fiancé is not a native, so when she gets information its from a completely different community news outlet, with a slant related almost entirely to her native country. There are everyday local occurrences she is entirely oblivious to. And I hear more about what's going on in Korea or Japan from her than I do in our city.

The girl is Bosnian, so she already has been touched by a political war. For all you know the information she is getting is all Islamic based with an Islamic slant, maybe not even from English sources. My god you are presumptuous.

And for the record, some people completely disregard anything and everything they hear/see in the MSM, and go only by the word of people around them. Interact with various communities you will begin to understand.

Still Im not even sure what you are talking about because ISIS now known as IS, was formed in April 2014 when the girls left, before that it was ISI, which was made out of AQI. But it's pretty hard for the girls to know exactly what or who they were going to when it didn't even exist yet. (I presume they spoke to the man at the mosque earlier). Keep in mind this is around the time that the (US backed) Rebels were accountable for almost as many atrocities as Assad whose regime had been using chemical weapons, and were massacring people at the time.

Muslims headed off to Syria at the time could have ended up in the hands of dozens of fighters, loyal to a rubber band of leaders. Eventually the US pulled support for the rebels and made strict rules for training and arms because it was ending up in the wrong hands. So if the US gov can make a mistake, Im sure two teenage girls can too.




Oh really?
Do you remember the Menendez brothers?


Wow, cherry pick information much? You overlooked the entire point of that paragraph to focus on one sentence. Yes sometimes examples are made of famous rich/powerful people, sometimes purposely by powerful rich enemies of theirs. For every example you gave there are dozens of the opposite theme. But forget that, because it wasn't the point,

The point was yes, there are different standards for youths, dating back to Roman times. and even now, today, in Austria, the country in question. Great job on ignoring the bulk of my post.




And what are the laws for helping terrorists organizations, and you do understand that depending on the crime a minor can be tried as an adult. So since you are trying to defend these girls what is Austrias laws on helping terrorists and what are the penalties?


Its been mentioned a number of times in this thread, its 10 years.




Also I never said they have to be sent to an adult prison or be tried as an adult, but they should pay for committing the crime of helping a terrorist organization, and by going to Syria they went there with the purpose of helping a terrorist organization...Btw something they admitted to doing.


Culpability. If you didn't ignore half my post you would see the argument, that if the girls are even intelligent enough to make such a decision.

Do you think the spirit of the law was to protect the land from 14 year old girls, or do you think it was to prosecute the types of people who coerced them into going, preying on young disillusioned girls at a mosque, or those who offer monetary support that funds arms purchasing, or those that go there and actually fight.


“Girls aren’t there for combat, just for marriage and children. A reproduction machine.”


ISIS didn't technically exist at the time.




Sorry they went there to help with a jihadi war...they knew what they were doing and should have to pay for that.


Yeah, my neighbours kid took his toy gun one day and said he was going to rob a bank because his mom told him there was no money for candy. You should book him for conspiracy.


If you look at the issue intelligently it is really quite simple. Someone preyed on two young girls to coerce them into a human trafficking network to be a forced wife, (if you want to argue its not forced I ask you what happens to the ones that disagree, that question was answered in an earlier post). This is a problem Austria has made attempts to prevent:


The government announced on Sept. 26 that it would hire social workers and teachers to develop a “de-radicalization and prevention network” targeting at-risk Muslim youth. Islamic State militants have set up a sophisticated recruitment program using money, food and camaraderie to tempt young Muslims to their cause, the Austrian Press Agency reported in August.

Vienna’s Islamic Center, in a low-income neighborhood, is where thousands of the city’s Muslims travel for Friday prayer. Vending machines stocked with Turkish sweets greet visitors in the hallway. Discarded airplane seats line the back of the prayer room. On a recent weekday afternoon, it was occupied mostly by men in their 20s.
**

Unfortunately the law failed the girls. Now they are ready to come back, or when they are ready to come, all I say is instead of pushing a 10 year jail sentence, as is the standard in this case, look for alternatives to bring the girls back to normal. (to their senses). OR at least let them come back, even with the jail, as it stands they might not be allowed to return at all.

It actually sounds like an Austrian involved in any war loses their right to return to the country. Source, that means even if they were fighting in some war the rest of you agree with it would bar them from returning. There is a newer law however that is focused around support which bans it and symbols and other propaganda materials. I will leave my posts unedited.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 09:46 AM
link   
a reply to: LittleByLittle


I would say that the girls have their own Karma debts issues to work out themselves and saying that a person who have no connection to them have to help them to not receive bad karma is incorrect. Being neutral and not acting do not create karma debt or the opposite good karma.

I cannot think that any person here have personally put these girls in the mess they are in so they have no karma debt to these girls that I can see.


My point was the belief system. If you spend your life believing in "someone did something wrong so they should suffer", then eventually karma will catch up with you. As that kind of thinking supports a number of really bad policies and behaviours.

You can't say every action is equal, that every instance of bad decisions needs punishment or suffrage. In fact the most useful judicial system is one that focuses on rehabilitation not making someone suffer simply because you seek vengeance.

Every case is different in any case, which is the reason judges have sentencing "guidelines" and there are alternative punishments/prohibitions/etc in any dealings of the law. The most important thing is criminal intent. Or as I mentioned before legal capacity vs. dispositive capacity and the rest, or more appropriately in Austria, mündiger Minderjährige and their ability to make decisions showing criminal intent.

I was expecting a much more intelligent debate on the issue and Im a little surprised but maybe I shouldn't be (by ATS), in other forums people debate the law barring them back. It seems the security service is open to them returning but the laws strictly forbid anyone who enters a foreign war from returning to Austria (immediately revoking citizenship) but on other forums they question: If IS(IS) isn't a state but a group and Austria isn't officially at war, and they merely married a foreign fighter does the law even apply?

Unfortunately I don't speak Austrian so the sources I have access to are limited.

But the question remains, in the era of "war on _____" when no official wars are declared how do you invoke laws built around the rules of war, and the prerequisite of actual war. The laws that came following I do not think apply. But yes there are new ones that would apply now. I also question why no one is interested in the person responsible for coercing the girls, as it seems to be a major problem in Austria. So much so they have a large, policy wide effort to crack down on it.


The Austrian government has announced plans to improve its intelligence gathering and analysis capabilities in an urgent effort to crack down on would-be jihadists in the country.

The decision by Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner to recruit 20 new intelligence officers to focus exclusively on the threat posed by radical Islam comes after police in Austria arrested nine Chechen immigrants who were on their way to wage jihad in Syria.

The move also comes amid growing concerns that Austria's shiftless Muslim youth are becoming increasingly radicalized and vocal in their support of the jihadist group Islamic State.

The Chechens—eight men and one woman, ranging in age from 17 to 32—were purportedly planning to travel to Syria over a land route that would take them from Austria through the neighboring Balkans and on into Turkey. Four of the individuals were arrested in the southeastern Austrian province of Styria, and five others were detained in the province of Carinthia. Both provinces border Slovenia.

According to an analysis published by the newspaper Der Standard, Austria has emerged as a central hub for jihadists seeking to fight in Syria because Austria's geographic location provides easy access to land routes through the Balkans.

Austrian intelligence officials say that most of the 130 Austrians who are thought to have travelled to Syria are Chechens. The rest are immigrants from Bosnia, Kosovo and Turkey. Approximately 60 Austrian jihadists are currently on the front lines, 50 have already returned to Austria and 20 have been killed in action.
www.gatestoneinstitute.org...



You also may find it interesting that Austria knows of many of fighters that have gone over to fight, and returned to the country but because their actions weren't publicized they made it both ways. They did not however, escape the gaze of the intelligence agencies. Those people somehow managed to get by for now, living freely again in Austria.

Cheers.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 10:07 AM
link   

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: spy66

How do you know I don't have pity for them?

I know a nice young intelligent and thoughtful man in jail for hanging around with the wrong crowd, he got caught up in partying and drug dealing, he was used as a 'donkey' by more devious and nasty people in his group, he got caught and is now doing time. If you knew him personally you'd be appalled that this young fella had to go to jail. But this is the real world.

I do pity these girls, and their families. But this subject has far wider reaching implications than just these two women.


By "donkey" I meant 'mule'.

Feeling a bit daft today.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 10:23 AM
link   

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: boncho
These women aren't American.
Why do people bring the actions of the US into conversations like these all the time?
Yes we all know that the foreign policies of the US and her allies are responsible for the conflict in the ME.
How does that come into this conversation?


US foreign policy is backed by Western countries or those that make up "western countries", the efforts in Austria to radicalize or garner support is by focusing on Western actions in the region, and not solely that of Austria.

You cannot argue a Middle East narrative without America being involved in some way shape or form or another. Simple as that. Sorry if it hits a note like it sounds as if I'm blaming the US for everything, I'm not. I'm just talking about blowback, and you will see this in every retired intelligence agents memoirs.

You will also notice I also highlighted deaths in Pakistan, what does it have to do with Syria and Iraq? Well, it's Islamic deaths, and that's the tool used in recruiting campaigns. As well as deaths in Iraq, Yemen, etc. Pretty much anywhere the US has led operations, especially if they have led them in a combined effort.

I would mention Israel too, but alas, IS(IS) does not go heavy on Israel, I figure its on their back burner as maybe they or the people they are aligned with have not been affected by Israel so much as they have by other Western nations.

I have to respectfully disagree that it's not relevant.
edit on 14-10-2014 by boncho because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-10-2014 by boncho because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 11:00 AM
link   
a reply to: boncho




Mind you the last link is something recent, my point is obvious, with a giant list of dead muslim children, a war raging with tons of people being massacred, various groups fighting, there was no way to know exactly who or what was going on at the time. Even if they did, there is enough crap on both sides to rally people, which is something that needs to be understood.


So your saying that people didn't know what was happening at the time...you can't be serious as this isn't some new fight.




You also have a very one sided archaic view on how people interact in their communities. Myself, I do not have TV programming in my house. My fiancé is not a native, so when she gets information its from a completely different community news outlet, with a slant related almost entirely to her native country. There are everyday local occurrences she is entirely oblivious to. And I hear more about what's going on in Korea or Japan from her than I do in our city.


And what does that have to do with the topic at hand, because as you know with the internet you can get news sources from all over the world, but just so you know I don't watch the mainstream news nor do I care to. And you have no clue as to what my views are on many subjects so don't act as though you do.




The girl is Bosnian, so she already has been touched by a political war. For all you know the information she is getting is all Islamic based with an Islamic slant, maybe not even from English sources. My god you are presumptuous.


And you should know I work close with a Bosnian citizen that I discuss things with who still has family there so I do understand how things work there. And I also discuss problems with muslims that I work with that are from all areas of the world, so I know a bit more than you think.




Still Im not even sure what you are talking about because ISIS now known as IS, was formed in April 2014 when the girls left, before that it was ISI, which was made out of AQI.


So the name changed the ideology didn't. They knew what they were going to do, in fact you even said it in your OP as they were going to help in a jihadi war...so unless the ideology of jihad changed with their name it isn't hard to figure out.



Wow, cherry pick information much?


Not cherry picking, as I replied to what you posted which was this...



Strange, well connected families, politicians, etc, would tend to disagree with you.


And I provided you with examples that proved you were wrong, as each example is about very wealthy well connected families that have children in jail for breaking the laws. As I said before being well connected and wealthy doesn't give you free reign to break the law.

In fact here is another example...

Michael Skakel...You do know who he is correct?

Well he is a cousin of a very well known and wealthy political family called the Kennedy's. He was sent to prison for a crime he committed, so being well connected doesn't give you a get out of jail free card which is the point you seemed to miss.



Yes sometimes examples are made of famous rich/powerful people, sometimes purposely by powerful rich enemies of theirs.


Sorry but none of the examples I provided had anything to do with rich powerful enemies that caused those problems as they were done solely by the individuals themselves. And yes that does happen sometimes that isn't the case here.




The point was yes, there are different standards for youths, dating back to Roman times. and even now, today, in Austria, the country in question. Great job on ignoring the bulk of my post.


I didn't ignore anything it just wasn't relevant to what I was discussing. All countries have laws for youths, but those laws are amended to fit certain crimes such as they are here in the US where a child as young as 15 can be tried as an adult depending on how serious the crime is...which is the point you seem to overlook.


Some juvenile cases get transferred to adult criminal court through a process called a "waiver" -- when a judge waives the protections that juvenile court provides. Usually, juvenile cases that are subject to waiver involve more serious crimes, or minors who have been in trouble before. Although being tried in adult court gives a juvenile more constitutional protections, it has distinct disadvantages too -- including the potential for a more severe sentence and the possibility of serving time in an adult correctional facility.


www.nolo.com...

So laws are amended to fit the offense, which is the point I was making and you aren't understanding.



Culpability. If you didn't ignore half my post you would see the argument, that if the girls are even intelligent enough to make such a decision.



So you trying to say these girls didn't have a clue about what was happening in Syria, and they didn't know that helping a terrorist group in Syria was wrong?



ISIS didn't technically exist at the time.


And that is where you are wrong...


The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) used to have a different name: al Qaeda in Iraq.

US troops and allied Sunni militias defeated al Qaeda in Iraq during the post-2006 "surge" — but it didn't destroy them. The US commander in Iraq, General Ray Odierno, described the group in 2010 as down but "fundamentally the same." In 2011, the group rebooted. ISIS successfully freed a number of prisoners held by the Iraqi government and, slowly but surely, began rebuilding their strength.


www.vox.com...



Yeah, my neighbours kid took his toy gun one day and said he was going to rob a bank because his mom told him there was no money for candy. You should book him for conspiracy.


Sorry, but that argument doesn't work as he didn't conspire with anyone to rob the bank...So no conspiracy charge for him.

But had he robbed the bank he would be tried for bank robbery, and if he discharged the weapon during that crime he may have been tried as an adult depending on the circumstances, so again that argument doesn't work.




If you look at the issue intelligently it is really quite simple. Someone preyed on two young girls to coerce them into a human trafficking network to be a forced wife, (if you want to argue its not forced I ask you what happens to the ones that disagree, that question was answered in an earlier post).


The problem here is we have this from the girls...


In a letter to their families upon their departure from Austria, the girls said they were prepared to die as jihadists. "No point looking for us: See you in paradise… We will serve Allah and die for him." Photos of them wearing burkas, holding Kalashnikovs and posing with masked jihadists later circulated online.


news.vice.com...

So your argument just doesn't hold water unless you can provide evidence they didn't write the letter. And as far as the original article says they wrote the letters.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 11:09 AM
link   
a reply to: boncho




Unfortunately the law failed the girls. Now they are ready to come back, or when they are ready to come, all I say is instead of pushing a 10 year jail sentence, as is the standard in this case, look for alternatives to bring the girls back to normal. (to their senses). OR at least let them come back, even with the jail, as it stands they might not be allowed to return at all.


I agree, but they will not be coming home as if nothing happened they will have to pay the price for what they did.




It actually sounds like an Austrian involved in any war loses their right to return to the country. Source, that means even if they were fighting in some war the rest of you agree with it would bar them from returning. There is a newer law however that is focused around support which bans it and symbols and other propaganda materials. I will leave my posts unedited.


I think you may have misunderstood what that source was saying...



A terrorism expert for "Crown", "Are you even IS a member, no longer are you coming so just go away And anyway, women have no right to return the terrorist to his own request his back, even if their husbands are like.. - they are simply passed on to the next. "


What he is saying is that as a member of ISIS the girls aren't free to come and go as they please, so coming home is something that just may not happen...It isn't that Austria won't let them come home ISIS probably won't let them come home.

It also seems to say that if their husbands are killed they are just passed on to someone else. I very seriously doubt that if an Austrian is going to fight in a war that they aren't allowed back into the country, and the source you provided doesn't come close to stating that, so I don't see where you found that bit of info.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 11:14 AM
link   
a reply to: boncho




They did not however, escape the gaze of the intelligence agencies. Those people somehow managed to get by for now, living freely again in Austria.


Wow that just totally contradicts what you said to me...



It actually sounds like an Austrian involved in any war loses their right to return to the country. Source, that means even if they were fighting in some war the rest of you agree with it would bar them from returning.


So then are they able to return or not?



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 11:22 AM
link   
What are they disillusioned about..chopping the heads of infidels wasn't as much fun as they thought? There were no illusions about what IS was/is doing..nope they do not get to slither home, let it be the message to others..go to something like that and you are NOT coming back. It would be like letting a serial killer out of prison and back into society.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 11:48 AM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h



It actually sounds like an Austrian involved in any war loses their right to return to the country. Source, that means even if they were fighting in some war the rest of you agree with it would bar them from returning.


We probably should have a law in every country stating you are only allowed citizen under the premise of not being a combatant in any organization that is not part of defending the country you are a citizen off. And any transgression there off removes your right to be a citizen.

Who wants people around you who go around killing people around the world and can be manipulated into killing another human?
edit on 14-10-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 11:55 AM
link   
Whether they got their hands dirty or not they are at a minimum guilty of conspiracy.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 12:10 PM
link   
a reply to: tsurfer2000h


Wow that just totally contradicts what you said to me...


It doesn't contradict anything I said to you. I highlighted how arbitrary the law is. There is literarily dozens of people that went to Syria to fight as armed combatants, yet they came home and are living in the country again under the eye of the intelligence services.

(Intelligence agencies track crime they do not stop it)

The girls however are unable to get back because their case has gained media exposure. In what way does that contradict anything?



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 12:16 PM
link   
a reply to: LittleByLittle


We probably should have a law in every country stating you are only allowed citizen under the premise of not being a combatant in any organization that is not part of defending the country you are a citizen off. And any transgression there off removes your right to be a citizen.


Wow, scary, scary nationalistic ideas you have there. There was a place with similar thinking, Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, etc.

Nationalism is an infertile disease, it is the measles of mankind. -Albert Einstein

There are laws in most countries for traitorous actions. As far as Im concerned and the legal community as a whole is though, that undeclared wars are not bound by those laws. Which is why there are not as many trials for treason, but, of course you need actual wars for that, not undeclared attacks on sovereign nations.



Who wants people around you who go around killing people around the world and can be manipulated into killing another human?


You mean like soldiers of every country and police in most places today as well? Yeah, scary.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 12:33 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho

Good rebuttal



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 12:43 PM
link   


So your saying that people didn't know what was happening at the time...you can't be serious as this isn't some new fight.
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Okay, so the US armed and aided extremist rebels on purpose, or they too had no clue in the beginning and started weeding out the rest, and trying to find moderates.

This happened. Its history. The Syrian conflict was very confusing in the early stages and most had no idea what was going on there.




Not cherry picking, as I replied to what you posted which was this...


And you ignored the rest of the paragraph it was a tiny blip you focused on because you thought you had a point, you cherry pick.




And I provided you with examples that proved you were wrong, as each example is about very wealthy well connected families that have children in jail for breaking the laws. As I said before being well connected and wealthy doesn't give you free reign to break the law.

In fact here is another example...

Michael Skakel...You do know who he is correct?

Well he is a cousin of a very well known and wealthy political family called the Kennedy's. He was sent to prison for a crime he committed, so being well connected doesn't give you a get out of jail free card which is the point you seemed to miss.


Im done with this thread and this debate. I stop debating with people when they cherry pick, run off on non-topics unrelated, and completely misrepresent my words.

Red herrings.
Extending goal posts.
Changing words that you've said.
Strawman arguments.

You got it all.

So you know:

Prosecuting a connected family or powerful person can indicate corruption as much as one getting off on their charges. That is called looking beyond the very basics of the story. Something you seem incapable of. Im not saying every time a big name goes down its a conspiracy, only that in many cases it is a career DA trying to prove that money doesn't equal power, simply for career advancement, but when the right person comes along, they don't prosecute. Its not about "every rich person gets off" its about which ones get off.

The Kennedy's had so many enemies its laughable you even brought them up. How many of them were assassinated and how many attempts on their lives? But oh yeah, thats a good example.

Here is an example of powerful political position which leads to no charges, and crimes being overlooked: Police

Police kill more than 5000 since 9.11

How many of them were charged, or how many were simply deemed, "defending their life". The police can simply shout, "Oh no he has a gun!" and open fire, and its suddenly justified. Without a gun. They are constantly being put on paid vacation while being investigated for things that if civilians did, would be sitting in jail waiting for trial. They get away with assaults, and lying on a day to day basis. This is evident from so many different sources.

An epidemic of police brutality sweeping the US.

On of the most telling instances was a police force that wore mandatory body cameras and their violence rates plus complaints plummeted. This indicates not only a culture of violence against regular people but many and many of lies to cover it up as surely they hadn't prosecuted cases in the past to match those statistics.

Police wear mandatory body cameras and violence and complaints is reduced by 88%


Body-worn cameras are not new. Devon and Cornwall police launched a pilot scheme in 2006 and forces in Strathclyde, Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, among others, have also experimented.

But Rialto's randomised controlled study has seized attention because it offers scientific – and encouraging – findings: after cameras were introduced in February 2012, public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers' use of force fell by 60%.



My point, that you so stubbornly, ignorantly tried to ignore, is that the law applies to different people all the time. Every day. As I even showed that it applies differently with reason, since Roman times, to young offenders. I even showed that it applies differently to Austrians who have managed to go to Syria, fight in the war as a combatant, and get back into Austria without so much as a slap on the wrist, only because it was recorded by Interpol and the intelligence agencies and not by any policing authority that would arrest them, and only because their case was not highlighted in the media like the two girls.

Beyond that there is no argument or any reason for you to continue your nonsense. The simply point was, the law applies differently to different people at different times.

And for as many pointless examples of famous or wealthy, powerful people getting busted, there are probably double that you never heard of for the same, especially because a lot of them probably never make it to court, or even arrest for that matter.

Maybe you forgot about:

George Bush and his drunk driving affair.

Scooter Libby gets a full pardon.

Or the following:


Roger Clinton, Jr.
Aslam P. Adam
Marc Rich
Caspar Weinberger
Elliot Abrams
Richard Nixon
Mark Felt and Edward Miller
Jimmy Hoffa.


Of course, some wealthy, famous or powerful people are not powerful enough, or they have enemies. Like, Strauss Khan who had numerous attempts to put him behind bars on sex charges and ruin his career as he was having problems at his IMF posting.

Id like to say it was nice conversing with you but it wasn't. You can't grasp very simple things, you cherry pick, you run off on non-arguments and straw mans, completely twisting alternative views and you have the grasp of a teenager on most topics. It makes sense the position you have.

Amazing how confident you must be in such a black and white world. You outperform even some of the largest governments in the world. Good for you.



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 12:47 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho

So from your point of view nationalism in "defense only" of the land and security of the citizen against outside aggressive forces are the same as nationalism used in aggressive attacks like the Nazis.

There is good nationalism to protect and create symbiosis and bad nationalism that can be used to become predatory. In my case to be as EU citizen you are not allowed to join fighting units around the world or you will lose your EU citizenship. Now to make EU a complete non aggressive force is a challenge.

From my point of view all people who kill as the attacker are murdering people and should face the law of their actions.



You mean like soldiers of every country and police in most places today as well? Yeah, scary.


I do think that there is seriously something wrong in the head of every person on this planet that are killing another person "outside self defense" including all the western soldiers who fall for western propaganda and go to war in the middle east.

Police is another matter since they are when taught correctly caretakers who provide safety for their citizens at bad times. The only problem I have had with the police in my country (Nordic country) is that they can be a little grumpy sometimes when you met them when they have had a bad day and that there are too few of them. I trust the police in my country more than I trust politicians.
edit on 14-10-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-10-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2014 @ 01:07 PM
link   
a reply to: boncho





It doesn't contradict anything I said to you


And yet you said this...



Source, that means even if they were fighting in some war the rest of you agree with it would bar them from returning.


But yet other's have gone off and fought, yet they came back so obviously they are allowed to return...and you can't see the contradiction in your statements?



new topics

top topics



 
10
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join