Criminalizing IS support and the disillusioned return home. Two teens wish to return from Raqqa.

a reply to: boncho

the girls could face severe punishment from IS for speaking out, amid claims that other foreign fighters who have revealed their dissatisfaction have been tortured

Talk about throwing ones life away.

Give up freedom of speech, freedom to vote, freedom to voice ones opinion, freedom for higher education, freedom to have career of their dreams and to live a life as they please.

To be some hairy old guys play toy for a few weeks. Then, Face death and torture when it's no longer fun and exciting.

Yup, Tough life lesson to learn.

a reply to: ccseagull

To me this is exactly the kind of thinking that strengthens the extremists position. If people are so callous to condemn a child after making a bad decision (mind you their choice was abhorrent), one that didn't include them fighting or murdering or any violence, we are no better than some jihadist that wants to beat or stone a woman for cheating. We know exactly how a woman will be treated in those conditions by those people, I believe the girls are caucasian too (from Bosnia), they indeed have a fairer complexion. So if we leave them to those conditions are we any better?

If they have to suffer consequence or make up in some way to take responsibility, fine, but 10 years in prison is extreme. The one has to live with the pregnancy so she will have a very long reminder. These are the kinds of people that are perfect for speaking to younger generations to curb stupid ideas like this, to explain the grass isn't greener on the other side. Your position and others though shows the grass isn't so green here either.

What makes us different from the barbarians? Not being barbaric, or leaving them in the hands of those that are. While someone may be an enemy or disliked, or the bottom of your social standing, they still deserve humane treatment and the chance to rebuild or repair any bad choices they have made. To me a 10 yr sentence only limits their ability to become a pro-social contributing member of society. Not only that but also incite hatred towards the state.

When I saw you empower the jihadists, you do, because they are over there wanting to come back, and the jihadi's say "See, look at them, they turn their back on you, they hate you because you love Allah...bla bla". Which only broadens the grip the jihadis have, and only gives them less to hold on to. If you thought they were dangerous as sex puppets, wait until they feel they have absolutely nothing to go back to and carry all the hate (which is fear in disguise), then you breed a more dangerous, disillusioned lost soul.

Foreign policy has aided and abetted jihadis more than anything, internal policy shouldn't strengthen that blowback any more than it has to. Compassion and forgiveness is akin to wisdom, as throwing stones because you were hit by one just leaves everyone blind.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

They have broken laws that need to be dealt with, just as the old saying goes...play with fire and your going to get burned.

Im sure the IS rejects tout the same lines when they stone woman for batting an eyelash the wrong way, or hang people for doing drugs, or jail them for drinking alcohol (but don't be surprised if they do themselves behind closed doors).

They went to another country to give support to a terrorist group and that is okay with you?

They did. Did they realize the weight of their decision when they made it? Who knows. They claim as much but a young mind is lacking certain things to really grip the full reality of something like that.

Why is the hate in this thread all directed at the girls? They were 14 and 16 when they left:

Little information was immediately known, aside from that one had been 16 and one 14 at the time of their departure.

*

The hate might be better aimed at the person in the Mosque of a free country bound by law, who was preying on young teens. The law that was made was obviously primarily directed at potential military fighters that would go over to support them, or those able to offer monetary support, or you know... those that might prey on young teenagers to send them over to a war zone to be glorified prostitutes. Im surprised this case hasn't been referred to as sex trade to be honest, as it resembles human trafficking more than a terrorist threat.

The actions of the girls is stupid and silly but not malevolent. '

It is clear that whoever is operating their pages, it probably is not the girls, and that they are being used for propaganda,” a security expert told the Austrian Times.

If you have children yourself, know that 16 year old girls are extremely malleable, and that any conman worth his salt could convince them to do a number of terrible things, easily enough to get them facing consequences of jail or worse. Hopefully karma doesn't teach you that lesson.

Stupidity isn't a good reason to support terrorists, but it does get you into trouble as these two girls are going to find out.

Apparently its good enough to throw the book at them by most accounts on here.

a reply to: nrd101

What are you on about? God judged what? Who?

How is not allowing them free pass to come and go as they please treating them "less than human"???

So I go over to Syria and chop a few heads off some infidels, then say "I'm sorry, I did that, I don't like it here, it's too hot and a beard doesn't suit me, I want to come home, can I stay at your house?" Are you gonna be cool with that??

I'm not saying these women did these things, but who knows what they've done, or will do? And what about responsibility?? What about the message that this particular case sends out to other young people, "go over to Syria, and have a laugh, sleep with some fanatics, play Jihadi-bride, then when you get home sick, it's ok well pay for your flight and it'll all be forgotten about"

a reply to: boncho

I agree with your sentiments, but tell me how is not letting these women come and go as they please equivocal to the punishments meted out by the IS???

I recently saw a video of IS publicly strangling a woman to death for some crime she committed.

Are these Austrian women being raped, tortured, or treated badly? As far as I know that's not the case, they just want to come home. Not allowing them to is hardly a serious punishment, it's more of a lesson to them and others, this is not a game. Look at all the young European people in jail in Thailand for making bad decisions with regards to drugs, they're stuck in horrible conditions, some of them for life, you think they'd like to come home?

This is not a game.

a reply to: boncho

They did. Did they realize the weight of their decision when they made it? Who knows. They claim as much but a young mind is lacking certain things to really grip the full reality of something like that.

I am sure they have common sense and knew that what they were doing was going to cause trouble for them when they want to return. Even a 14 and 16 year old know what is right and wrong, and if they don't then the parents are to blame, but in this case they seem to know the difference.

How does one not understand the reality of a group beheading civilian journalists, and aid workers for just doing their jobs?

If you have children yourself, know that 16 year old girls are extremely malleable, and that any conman worth his salt could convince them to do a number of terrible things, easily enough to get them facing consequences of jail or worse. Hopefully karma doesn't teach you that lesson.

Good try, but a 16 year old girl knows right from wrong and as I said above the killing of innocent people is wrong, and that is just something you are taught growing up...unless Charles Manson is her father she should have know what she was doing is wrong.

And Karma has nothing to do with it. As I can attest...If you break the law you pay the consequences even if you are a 16 year old girl.

I know as I broke the law and I paid the price.

Apparently its good enough to throw the book at them by most accounts on here.

Being young doesn't give you a free pass to break the law.

I am glad it is not up to any of you people to make a moral Choice on behalf of these girls. Because you People are just like ISIS.

You People say: If you are not With us you are against us. That is motto of ISIS as well.

a reply to: spy66

Wrong.

That's like saying the judge who sends somebody to jail is just like ISIS.

In my town a few years ago two teenage girls lured an older drunken man back to an apartment, and when he made sexual advances on them, they killed him with knives and dismembered his body.

By your reckoning, these girls should be let off because they were young and silly?

a reply to: spy66

You People say: If you are not With us you are against us. That is motto of ISIS as well.

No, it's more like if you break the law you deal with the consequences that come with breaking the law.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I am sure they have common sense and knew that what they were doing was going to cause trouble for them when they want to return. Even a 14 and 16 year old know what is right and wrong, and if they don't then the parents are to blame, but in this case they seem to know the difference.

How does one not understand the reality of a group beheading civilian journalists, and aid workers for just doing their jobs?

They were recruited in a mosque, not at a terrorist training camp airing beheadings and suicide bombers 24/7. Mind you this was back before IS was getting much press coverage at all, so for all you know you didn't even know who they were at the time.

That being said, they may have gone under the impression it was a just cause or to help the plight of the weak. Beheadings are wrong yes, but I do think a drone dropping a two ton bomb into a school is pretty bad as well. Yet the US doesn't go around on recruitment sessions showing pictures of dead babies and teenagers saying, "Yes sir, son, one day you can be the drone operator that kills a few dozen kids. We call it collateral damage but when were drunk we call it boom boom oopsies!"

That is called blowback. When you drop drones all over the place on shoddy intel (either purposely delivered disinformation in the aims to make America look bad, or by means of unreliable torture) it lands on a school full of children, you inevitably raise more people to your enemies cause.

Good try, but a 16 year old girl knows right from wrong and as I said above the killing of innocent people is wrong, and that is just something you are taught growing up...unless Charles Manson is her father she should have know what she was doing is wrong.

You have evidence she killed someone? Please present. Any other rebuttal, please see the above paragraph.

Being young doesn't give you a free pass to break the law.

Strange, well connected families, politicians, etc, would tend to disagree with you. And even on the bottom rungs of society, yes in fact (it's not a free pass,but), there are alternative measures for youths, it's called youth offenders or young offenders law. In Austria it also referred to as young offenders laws or for her age she is seen as a mündiger Minderjährige:

Every person under 7 years is considered as a child, between 7 and 14 years a person is recognized as a “unmündiger Minderjährige” which is a minor underage person. Between 14 and 18 years everybody is construed as a “mündiger Minderjährige” which refers to a major, mature underage person. After reaching the 18th birthday, everybody is seen as an adult before the law.

[url=http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/Legal_Systems_Very_Different_13/LegalSysPapers2Discuss13/Strasser_Juvenile.htm]***[/ url]

This kind of thinking dates back to Roman times:

Age limits and age restrictions, as well as the need to differ between an adult and a child, can already be found in the ancient Roman law.

Pursuant to the ancient Roman law a roman citizen owns two different capacities, on the one hand a.) the “legal capacity”; and on the other hand b.) the “dispositive capacity”. The legal capacity includes legal rights and duties, which arise automatically with the birth. On the contrary the dispositive capacity combines rights and duties which require a certain age. To be construed as “minded” and to achieve the dispositive capacity a roman citizen had to become 18 years old.

[url=http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/Legal_Systems_Very_Different_13/LegalSysPapers2Discuss13/Strasser_Juvenile.htm]***[/ url]

Remember it is these laws and these kinds of nuances in our law that separates us from the heathens that would see Sharia Law rule the world and be upheld in the strictest most violent interpretation known.

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: spy66

Wrong.

That's like saying the judge who sends somebody to jail is just like ISIS.

In my town a few years ago two teenage girls lured an older drunken man back to an apartment, and when he made sexual advances on them, they killed him with knives and dismembered his body.

By your reckoning, these girls should be let off because they were young and silly?

We create laws just like ISIS create their laws. But we have the ability to prove that we have a moral high ground compared to them. But you People dont want to show these Girls any pitty. Becasue you have no moral high ground to show pitty. ISIS show no pitty either. You are just like them, dont you see it?

a reply to: boncho

These women aren't American.

Why do people bring the actions of the US into conversations like these all the time?

Yes we all know that the foreign policies of the US and her allies are responsible for the conflict in the ME.

How does that come into this conversation?

This particular case is about action and consequence, just like the points made in your post.

That people make decisions and are then held accountable for those decisions, is that not what we're talking about here? Is that not a policy that we would all like to see enforced on the people responsible for the war in Iraq?

I get why people feel sorry for these young women, and it seems that many think they should be allowed back into Austria because of their age and the mistakes young people make. Say that to any young person in jail then. It seems to me that the argument posited by you is that if somebody is young then they are above the law?

a reply to: seabhac-rua

I agree with your sentiments, but tell me how is not letting these women come and go as they please equivocal to the punishments meted out by the IS???
....
Are these Austrian women being raped, tortured, or treated badly? As far as I know that's not the case, they just want to come home. Not allowing them to is hardly a serious punishment, it's more of a lesson to them and others, this is not a game.

IS is involved in these recruitment schemes for comfort girls. They come over under the illusion they are helping/fighting for underdogs, persecuted peoples, to be a part of Islam and make a difference by helping freedom fighters. When they get there the jihadis simply "marry" them, but temporarily, these temporary marriages can last as little as a few hours and are simply a means of getting around Sharia Law.

This case under any other circumstances would be seen as human trafficking, the only reason it hasn't is because of the angst the girls seem to have towards their parents. (Who really need to take a long hard look in the mirror.)

Since IS has complete control over the girls social media accounts, I presume they are controlling a lot more than that. Even if the girls were suffering terrible conditions they may not want to admit as much out of pride.

THE LITTLE KNOWN TRUTH ABOUT ISIS'S HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND SLAVE TRADE

The 16-year-old girl, called Sama, says that she was held with other girls as young as 11, with her captors saying they would make them "marry Muslim men."
Sama got lucky, however, and was rescued by an unknown benefactor who 'bought' her and then let her go. She is now in Kurdish-controlled territory.

WASHINGTON — The Islamic State militant group, which once relied on wealthy Persian Gulf donors for money, has become a self-sustaining financial juggernaut, earning more than $3 million a day from oil smuggling, human trafficking, theft and extortion, according to US intelligence officials and private experts.

***

Why is letting them stay make us as bad as them? Because we know the conditions they are in. They have stated that death is a constant theme in their lives now. Add on the forced marriages, basically forced prostitution, and you are condemning them to a life of hell, ruled by extreme interpretations of Sharia Law.

Are they 100% innocent? No. Should they be let back with no consequences at all? No. Do they deserve a 10 year sentence coming home? No. I don't think so. If anything they should have to attend some kind of reprogramming or deprogramming facility and be monitored during and after maybe for a couple years depending on how messed up they are. They should also have to provide as much intel as humanly possible and also offer up any continued support to Western governments by outing any local agents working for IS, or if they can maintain contact with Syrian ones under the direction of the Austrian intelligence agencies.

Look at all the young European people in jail in Thailand for making bad decisions with regards to drugs, they're stuck in horrible conditions, some of them for life, you think they'd like to come home?

Last I heard it was $80,000 to get yourself out of that situation. $40k, if you get the right arresting officer and bargain immediately before it goes up the chain and more hands have to be greased. Even in the highly publicized case of Australian Schapelle Corby was offered a way out with money but the idiot's family talked about it on the news and the deal was pulled (obviously).

That shows how corrupt and arbitrary those laws are. Complete BS. And no it's an loathsome situation. There are only two ways out of it, money, or set someone else up to take an even larger fall than yourself. Hmm, I wonder how many are sitting their because of the latter.

The drug war is an international failure, not just a local one. And the harsher the laws, the deeper the corruption, making the laws stand for absolutely nothing.

originally posted by: spy66
I am glad it is not up to any of you people to make a moral Choice on behalf of these girls. Because you People are just like ISIS.

Nothing like being judged by those who claim a moral high ground over others...

You People say: If you are not With us you are against us. That is motto of ISIS as well.

How is letting these girls live with their choices and face the consequences of those choices being just like ISIS? Nobody here is advocating the taking of their heads for not complying.

That will be their 'Lovers' responsibility.

a reply to: spy66

How do you know I don't have pity for them?

I know a nice young intelligent and thoughtful man in jail for hanging around with the wrong crowd, he got caught up in partying and drug dealing, he was used as a 'donkey' by more devious and nasty people in his group, he got caught and is now doing time. If you knew him personally you'd be appalled that this young fella had to go to jail. But this is the real world.

I do pity these girls, and their families. But this subject has far wider reaching implications than just these two women.

These two females came from Muslim families, right? They somehow made it to help the IS movement. They became sexual toys for the terrorist. Now they are pregnant. Are we going to hear that these girls have become victims of HONOR KILLING?

a reply to: boncho

I agree, if some system of rehabilitation was in place for these women then maybe it would be an option to repatriate them. But I don't think that such a system exists.

originally posted by: nrd101

There's no war in Austria, or in the US. No reason they should be treated less than human.

So if there is a war in your local neighborhood then it's ok to treat them less than human?
How about if someone decides to go participate in a war as these two have?
By your rules they are less than human.

I haven't seen anyone advocating less than human.
People have definitely been advocating treating them like the traitors that their actions have demonstrated they are.
Traitors are still human and humans still go to jail.

I love all of that empathy though.
God has judged you and you will not be worthy of another incarnation?
You would judge those with an opinion that differs from yours as as not worthy of another incarnation.
Meanwhile, joining up with the head choppers international is a great way to get another life?

Your logic ..... wow

a reply to: boncho

Three choices I see.

1 Either the right choice is for Austria to treat them as part of their society (that might be taking in a wolf in sheep clothing) and treat them as mindless children.

2 Not care at all about the girls and let them handle the situation they have put themselves in and keep them out of the western world so they cannot do anymore damage than they already have done (according to news articles they have influenced others to join before they themselves went). And if they are half wolf/half sheep they might degrade into full wolf surrounded by wolfs but at least they are not in the western world but stuck in the middle east in a war zone.

3 The girls come home and take their jail time and take total responsibility for what they have done.

4 The girls find another option and are saved by others and learn from this experience.

I would say that the girls have their own Karma debts issues to work out themselves and saying that a person who have no connection to them have to help them to not receive bad karma is incorrect. Being neutral and not acting do not create karma debt or the opposite good karma.

I cannot think that any person here have personally put these girls in the mess they are in so they have no karma debt to these girls that I can see.

But if someone here has a way to get to the girls, get them to a place where they feel safe and take on the responsibility to make sure they do not screw up again (that probably is a lifetime work) then they might earn some good karma points.

originally posted by: spy66
I am glad it is not up to any of you people to make a moral Choice on behalf of these girls. Because you People are just like ISIS.

You People say: If you are not With us you are against us. That is motto of ISIS as well.

Duality thinking. The funny thing is that there is both the non dual ones and the dual ones and the non dual ones like to be around non duals one sometimes trying to make the dual ones into non dual ones.

So even non duality thinkers are trapped in groupings of those who know and can understand non duality and those who cannot.

To be like ISIS the people here must have a predatory urge to kill people who do not share their view. Just because they do not want to have a wolf around do not mean they are wolves themselves.