IS ISIS and the Ukraine connected to World War III geopolitical strategic maneuverings?

originally posted by: tavi45
Toppling Assad is the primary goal for the US. Then we could pipe oil directly to Europe from the middle East destroying European energy dependence on Russia overnight. This would cripple Russia permanently. If you think Putin is just gonna roll over to let the Western powers gain permanent dominance you're deluded. America is playing a dangerous selfish game. They know they can't keep this up much longer. This is the end game.

One huge gambit before we end up marginalized by the rise of the BRICs. You don't need articles hand feeding you the information. Just look at American maneuvering since 9/11. We aren't toppling Arab Muslim regimes out of goodwill towards Muslims. Many Americans would be happier killing every Muslim on Earth. Just look at the news lately to see the massive hatred towards Muslims. It's all about oil. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand the basis of American military and economic might.

A more accurate description is that it's about energy dependence and domination.
There's lots of information to read on the subject online.

a reply to: Willtell

Syria has welcomed the air strikes on ISIS, including from the US.

a reply to: Willtell

The idea that Obama doesn’t want to send ground troops in when they are near that airport is instructive and frightening.

Why should he send troops on the ground, because we trained the Iraqi army so they could deal with this type of problem.

It's amazing that when we were there people cried about us being there, but now that their military ran like scared dogs they want us back to help...amazing.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Willtell

The idea that Obama doesn’t want to send ground troops in when they are near that airport is instructive and frightening.

Why should he send troops on the ground, because we trained the Iraqi army so they could deal with this type of problem.

It's amazing that when we were there people cried about us being there, but now that their military ran like scared dogs they want us back to help...amazing.

Would all the various factions fighting in Syria including ISIS even exist if it wasn't for America and her allies in the region arming and training these factions to fight against Assad?

Think about that for a moment. It's quite clear that one faction has gone "rogue" and things have gotten out of control. Maybe who to support, who to train and arm wasn't thought out thoroughly, and now it's back fired.

Don't you think that in such a situation with those circumstances, that those who helped indirectly, or unwittingly create this monster, are obligated to help destroy it? I'm not saying it's Americas fault. I'm just saying, you can't arm and train a group to fight against one of your enemies, and then when that group goes ape sh**, wash your hands and say it's not your problem when YOU gave them the guns and training.

They are also running around Iraq and Syria with American military equipment that was given to the Iraqi army by the USA and other allies that they captured from the fleeing Iraqi army, and probably stuff captured in Syria.

The Iraqi army is weak and inept. It's proven that.
The Syrian government is busy fighting a bunch of groups at once.
Turkey doesn't want to get involved unless NATO deploys ground troops, ie they don't want to be the ones doing the fighting and dying.
The only real opposition then is the Kurdish forces, who aren't armed with tanks and heavier weapons like ISIS.
All we are providing to the Kurds is light arms and ammunition.
They need more then that.

Do we really need to send in a huge ground force, or can elite special forces units from the USA, UK, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey, Spain and other NATO countries do the job of beating back ISIS with support from air and missile strikes? Working together with the Kurds.

There's currently about 200 Australian SAS and Commandos waiting in the UAE to go "help".
I don't know what that "help" will consist of. All they are saying in the media is that there's about that many of our guys over there waiting for the go ahead.

a reply to: mortex

Would all the various factions fighting in Syria including ISIS even exist if it wasn't for America and her allies in the region arming and training these factions to fight against Assad?

Yes they would, as this type of fighting is nothing new to that part of the world.

You see they have been fighting each other long before America was even discovered, so you can't blame America for that.

Don't you think that in such a situation with those circumstances, that those who helped indirectly, or unwittingly create this monster, are obligated to help destroy it?

Which is why the US trained and equipped the Iraqi Army, so if this type of situation happened they could protect themselves...It's just the Iraqi Army got scared and ran, so now they want the US to come in and fix the problem they ran from.

I'm just saying, you can't arm and train a group to fight against one of your enemies, and then when that group goes ape sh**, wash your hands and say it's not your problem when YOU gave them the guns and training.

The US has trained many other fighters that didn't turn on them so honestly it isn't our problem they went rogue. Also know that Iraq had the capabilities to defend their country they decided against doing it, so that isn't our problem to fix. Although in the end we will have to with the help of other countries.

They are also running around Iraq and Syria with American military equipment that was given to the Iraqi army by the USA and other allies that they captured from the fleeing Iraqi army, and probably stuff captured in Syria.

And how is that America's problem, as we trained them to fight not run.

The Syrian government is busy fighting a bunch of groups at once.
Turkey doesn't want to get involved unless NATO deploys ground troops, ie they don't want to be the ones doing the fighting and dying.

And that is Syria's problem for letting all those groups get to where they are at now. As for Turkey...they have no reason to fight in this war until it comes to them directly, which it seems to be headed that way, and remember now that the Turkish and Kurdish relation has been one of well not so good and only as of late have they actually been working on it.

The only real opposition then is the Kurdish forces, who aren't armed with tanks and heavier weapons like ISIS.
All we are providing to the Kurds is light arms and ammunition.
They need more then that.

And that is changing...

online.wsj.com...

Do we really need to send in a huge ground force, or can elite special forces units from the USA, UK, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey, Spain and other NATO countries do the job of beating back ISIS with support from air and missile strikes? Working together with the Kurds.

I don't see why they couldn't, but it does depend on those other countries and what they want to do concerning this conflict, as some don't want to send troops but have no problem sending money as support.

There's currently about 200 Australian SAS and Commandos waiting in the UAE to go "help".
I don't know what that "help" will consist of. All they are saying in the media is that there's about that many of our guys over there waiting for the go ahead.

Well as history showed us in Afghanistan with the Russians...a small group of fighters can take on a bigger fighting force as long as they have the right people backing them.

And as of right now no country really wants to take that role on, but waiting too long could be too late.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Your bringing religion into this?

How can you link the Pagan beliefs to the Christain Beliefs when Pagan was around LONG before the devil was created. Just becasue someone creates a article doesn't mean that article is true.

What gets me is the Nations of the world complain about the US policing the world but when something like this happens they run to the US and want us to save the day. Funny how that works

originally posted by: Ancient Champion
What gets me is the Nations of the world complain about the US policing the world but when something like this happens they run to the US and want us to save the day. Funny how that works

World will complain when US invades and wrong country for wrong reasons. World would expect the US to provide help when something so EVIL as ISIL props up.

Even if US does not want to provide help that should be fine. Any nation with half way decent army can run over these fanatics in few weeks.

a reply to: victor7

I don't believe that we should send ground troops myself, We spent almost a TRILLION dollars on the Iraqi army and they fold at the sight of terrorist? We should ask for our money back.

a reply to: mortex

huh...

i was not aware every single Me country was somehow under the control / influence of the US. That should prove to be concerning for Syria, Iran and several other nations.

Are those nations responsible for the forces that are also fighting?

Or is the US the sole nation to blame for all the ills in the ME?

a reply to: Ancient Champion

Iraqi Army has been then joke of the day. They are fully armed with good weapons and have had battle experience.

I believe a combo of US spec ops with airpower along with few "clowns" from the Iraqi Army can easily bust the ISIL.

Even if Spec Ops are in the middle or rear, with good intelligence and long range firepower job can be done without incurring causalities. Fly the drones, get the GPS coordinates of the hostile elements then either use the MRLS or wide area artillery. US should also have real time visual capabilities to target specific deals using other measures.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h

Yes they would, as this type of fighting is nothing new to that part of the world.

You see they have been fighting each other long before America was even discovered, so you can't blame America for that.

So there was a civil war in Syria before America and her regional allies started arming and training the anti-Assad forces?
Are you freaking kidding me?

Which is why the US trained and equipped the Iraqi Army, so if this type of situation happened they could protect themselves...It's just the Iraqi Army got scared and ran, so now they want the US to come in and fix the problem they ran from.

The US illegally invaded Iraq, destroyed the fabric that held the place together, destroyed the Iraqi army. Then rebuilt the Iraqi army apparently. How many of those that were trained were actual soldiers from before? How many were simple Iraqis with no military history? You expect these people who spent a few months in the desert with Coalition forces being trained to use weapons and in some tactics, to be able to fight a war now? Give me a break.

It's the USA's responsibility to clean up the mess now.
Because in Syria it's directly at fault for arming and training these groups, and in Iraq it's directly at fault for having destroyed the country in the first place with an invasion leaving it weakened.

The US has trained many other fighters that didn't turn on them so honestly it isn't our problem they went rogue. Also know that Iraq had the capabilities to defend their country they decided against doing it, so that isn't our problem to fix. Although in the end we will have to with the help of other countries.

Like who, Osama Bin Laden? He turned on America.
The Bosnian Muslims who were armed against UN resolutions by the USA? There's some lovely jihadis over there who've joined with Islamic extremists in the Middle East and Chechnya.
The Chechens who the USA supported? Didn't two Chechens set off bombs at the Boston marathon?
About the only group so far that hasn't turned on the USA is the Albanian terrorist formerly known as the KLA. But give it time, they are famous for it.

It's America's responsibility for the reasons outlined above anyway.

And how is that America's problem, as we trained them to fight not run.

No, they were basically put through basic training and learned how to use and handle weapons, and some tactics.
Unless I'm mistaken, the regular Iraqi units were not given the same level of training American or other western coalition partners armed forces get back home.

And that is Syria's problem for letting all those groups get to where they are at now. As for Turkey...they have no reason to fight in this war until it comes to them directly, which it seems to be headed that way, and remember now that the Turkish and Kurdish relation has been one of well not so good and only as of late have they actually been working on it.

No, it's America's fault and her regional allies for SUPPORTING THOSE GROUPS AGAINST SYRIA.
You obviously are oblivious to what your country has been up to around the place.
These groups wouldn't exist if it wasn't for America, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other gulf states funding, arming and training them.

They are fighting a proxy war in Syria.

And that is changing...

online.wsj.com...

Well good.

I don't see why they couldn't, but it does depend on those other countries and what they want to do concerning this conflict, as some don't want to send troops but have no problem sending money as support.

The "Coalition of the Willing" now has a moral obligation to help Iraq against ISIS. Because they weakened Iraq, or helped or condoned it. Just because some suits back home said it's time to leave and decided they are ready to stand on their own, doesn't mean it was true. It's obvious it was a mistake when thousands of Iraqi soldiers run away when faced with ISIS.

Well as history showed us in Afghanistan with the Russians...a small group of fighters can take on a bigger fighting force as long as they have the right people backing them.

And as of right now no country really wants to take that role on, but waiting too long could be too late.

The western regions of Iraq are about to fall to ISIS completely all the way to the outskirts of Baghdad.

originally posted by: Willtell
Also why can’t any of us come up with an original thought once in a while?

Why are we ALWAYS so dependent on the media or governing bodies for what to think?

Or can even we at ATS get out of the box of block thinking?

Appearances are deceptive.

You're right of course.....
I don't have a clue about stuff, as it always originates from a media outlet.
So no matter how far back I track an event i can't get past the fact
that it is someone elses word i have to take for it.. loosely speaking.

originally posted by: mortex

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h

Yes they would, as this type of fighting is nothing new to that part of the world.

You see they have been fighting each other long before America was even discovered, so you can't blame America for that.

So there was a civil war in Syria before America and her regional allies started arming and training the anti-Assad forces?
Are you freaking kidding me?

Which is why the US trained and equipped the Iraqi Army, so if this type of situation happened they could protect themselves...It's just the Iraqi Army got scared and ran, so now they want the US to come in and fix the problem they ran from.

The US illegally invaded Iraq, destroyed the fabric that held the place together, destroyed the Iraqi army. Then rebuilt the Iraqi army apparently. How many of those that were trained were actual soldiers from before? How many were simple Iraqis with no military history? You expect these people who spent a few months in the desert with Coalition forces being trained to use weapons and in some tactics, to be able to fight a war now? Give me a break.

It's the USA's responsibility to clean up the mess now.
Because in Syria it's directly at fault for arming and training these groups, and in Iraq it's directly at fault for having destroyed the country in the first place with an invasion leaving it weakened.

The US has trained many other fighters that didn't turn on them so honestly it isn't our problem they went rogue. Also know that Iraq had the capabilities to defend their country they decided against doing it, so that isn't our problem to fix. Although in the end we will have to with the help of other countries.

Like who, Osama Bin Laden? He turned on America.
The Bosnian Muslims who were armed against UN resolutions by the USA? There's some lovely jihadis over there who've joined with Islamic extremists in the Middle East and Chechnya.
The Chechens who the USA supported? Didn't two Chechens set off bombs at the Boston marathon?
About the only group so far that hasn't turned on the USA is the Albanian terrorist formerly known as the KLA. But give it time, they are famous for it.

It's America's responsibility for the reasons outlined above anyway.

And how is that America's problem, as we trained them to fight not run.

No, they were basically put through basic training and learned how to use and handle weapons, and some tactics.
Unless I'm mistaken, the regular Iraqi units were not given the same level of training American or other western coalition partners armed forces get back home.

And that is Syria's problem for letting all those groups get to where they are at now. As for Turkey...they have no reason to fight in this war until it comes to them directly, which it seems to be headed that way, and remember now that the Turkish and Kurdish relation has been one of well not so good and only as of late have they actually been working on it.

No, it's America's fault and her regional allies for SUPPORTING THOSE GROUPS AGAINST SYRIA.
You obviously are oblivious to what your country has been up to around the place.
These groups wouldn't exist if it wasn't for America, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other gulf states funding, arming and training them.

They are fighting a proxy war in Syria.

And that is changing...

online.wsj.com...

Well good.

I don't see why they couldn't, but it does depend on those other countries and what they want to do concerning this conflict, as some don't want to send troops but have no problem sending money as support.

The "Coalition of the Willing" now has a moral obligation to help Iraq against ISIS. Because they weakened Iraq, or helped or condoned it. Just because some suits back home said it's time to leave and decided they are ready to stand on their own, doesn't mean it was true. It's obvious it was a mistake when thousands of Iraqi soldiers run away when faced with ISIS.

Well as history showed us in Afghanistan with the Russians...a small group of fighters can take on a bigger fighting force as long as they have the right people backing them.

And as of right now no country really wants to take that role on, but waiting too long could be too late.

The western regions of Iraq are about to fall to ISIS completely all the way to the outskirts of Baghdad.

This post is absolutely on the money.
Colin Powell warned Bush and Cheney: If you attack you own it

They ruined the countries delicate fabric, of course it wasn’t perfect but at least even woman were somewhat free compared to other Arab countries. The Christians and other religious minorities including the Sunnis were all right.

The US invasion opened Iraq up to vulnerabilities they would never have faced so now the barbarians have come in.

To Me Obama is shirking his duty since even the GOP do do birds understand that this IS AMERICAS RESPONSIBILITY.

Obama half measures are either an indication that this is a psyop (the ISIS fiasco) or Obama is a complete moron lacking zilch for any strategic thinking ability.

If that’s the case he should have never ran for the office.

The bottom line people is that politicians in any of these countries are ruthless, soulless murderers.

They have to be because every one of their peers is a serial killer.

In fact one of the perquisites to be a US president is one has to have the mentality of a serial killer. That’s an unwritten law.


Look at how Obama and this rat Erdogan stand by and watch all the atrocities done by these maniacs in ISIS knowing full well they created it and can stop it

How do these “human beings” sleep at night?

Knowing their actions have caused the brutal deaths of thousands and many by torture.


How can Cheney and Bush sleep at night knowing full well they are responsible for millions of human beings’ deaths?

You see that’s the basic problem. We know that these ISIS lunatics bask in their evil deeds but the supposed civilized folks like Bush, Cheney, Obama, and Erdogan only pretend they are human and they fool a lot of people.

In reality they are just as bad as the ISIS devils

They will all be in Jahannam!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

...and over hell are 19

a reply to: Willtell

While Obama has failed the ISIL test by acting too late the next test right on his table is that of Ebola. Today CNN reports that there can be upto 10,000 cases showing up in West Africa each week.

www.cnn.com...

Time for Obama, G8s, G20s, BRICS and others to JUST ATTACK this crisis before it spreads any further the engulfs every country in the world.

Let's see how the world class politicians in leadership of their countries react.

This Chessboard Game has been in place since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Like many, I have been watching each skirmish and battle unfold the last 25 years and see the trend that has been going on.

Like it or not, Russia and China are the end goal....to divide and conquer them and open them up to Western/Global markets.

BUT......these two "King & Queen" of the cheesboard, cannot be taken out until all the little other obstacles are taken care off first and the threats eliminated.

1) Yugoslavia - Yugoslavia was a pro-Russian country in the heart of Europe...this couldnt be allowed to continue and thus it was divided and conquered as we all know how historically now. Bosnia was thus declared a Muslim state in the heart of Europe (pro-russian country wasnt allowed but a pro-Muslim one was...this is for a plan that is soon to unfold now). Same with Kosovo and Albania with US Camp Bondsteel, largest military base in Europe.

2) Iraq - Wars 1 & 2 were carried out, we all know the false pretences behind it, many warned of the power vacumn that would be left behind with the desposition of Saddam, but this was the plan, because ISIS had to take advantage of this power vacumn.

3) Libya - Ghaddafi had to be removed as a possible future Strategic threat....we all know how that went down.

4) Syria - Just prior to Ghaddafi's down fall, USA/Britain/Israel/Saudi/Qatar and Turkey formed the Free Syrian Army (FSA) to forment a Civil War with the aim of removing Assad.....Syria has to be taken out before they can concentrate on Iran. Weapons from Ghaddafi's regime were funneled through the Benghazzi consulate into Syria.....we all know how that ended up.

5) ISIS - the offshoot of the FSA. Using weapons that the West supplied the FSA, plus the weapons the West supplied to Iraqi Army that ISIS took from them. The only difference between FSA and ISIS is that ISIS wants a caliphate now, and to remove Assad later, whereas the FSA want to remove Assad now and form a caliphate later.

Basically both are one and the same - yet the West sees fit to arm the FSA but wants to go to war against ISIS......ludicrous.

6) The Kurds - The West is supporting the Kurds, against ISIS. Turkey has been sitting on the border watching ISIS (their pet) kill and massacre Kurds in Kobane, because basically the Turks hate the Kurds more than ISIS. Today there is news reports of the Turks using their fighter jets to bomb Kurdish positions, thus officially, siding with ISIS.....this is a NATO member, and Europe has sent anti aircraft batteries to Turkey southern border........CONFUSED YET?


Bascially, in my view....ISIS/FSA are Western creations put together to do the dirty work in the mideast that Western nations themnselves officially cannot be seen to be doing.

Has anyone wondered why ISIS hasnt publicly threatened Israel?

You cannot tell me that ISIS hates Shiite's more than they hate the jews?

ISIS will be allowed to expand until the end of the year with more massacres occuring. Starting next year, ISIS will start making inroads into Southern Caucauses and a few bombings ini Moscow will happen.

The West is hoping to drag Russia into an Islamic War in the hope it collapses Russia and its power. The West can quickly turn the taps off on ISIS and take them out if required.....but its in their best interest to keep them fighting and expanding in this point in time.

7) Turkey - to conclude....I warn you all of keeping an eye on Turkey. Turkey is the dark horse in this conflict with one foot in the Western sphere and one in the Eastern Islamic Sphere.....Recep Erdogan has strong Neo-Ottoman ambitions. Turkey has a strong economy and military. I beleive that Turkey is hoping ISIS eradicates Turkeys enemies in the Mideast and Turkey will in the end walk in easier, lay claim to large areas of Syria and Iraq and claim the New Ottoman Caliphate into existence.


It is for this reason that I think Turkey should be kicked out of NATO, they cannot be trusted going by their actions, and Turkey swinging harder towards the extremists would pose a massive security risk for Europe with jihadi's influxing through Turkey into Greece/Europe.

We are just warming up....the next 10 years will be very very violent........it will get much much worse before any resemblance of ending.

a reply to: Melbourne_Militia

Good reading and especially about Turkey and its ambitions. ISIL expanding any further will create problems for Syria, Iran and eventually Russia. Iraq might end breaking up into pieces.

If Turkey is kicked out of NATO then it might try to make an Islamic NATO and reach its Ottoman Caliphiate ambitions that way. That would be dangerous, very dangerous with real prospects of nukes going off if this Islamic alliance decides to play bully with any country like Russia or China.

There is a saying that "all road to Tehran go through Damascus" and "all roads to Moscow go through Kiev". That is why Russia reacted hard on both the places.

One thing I cannot understand is how come fairly decent and capable armies like those of Syria and Iraq cannot defeat the FSA and ISIL. These both groups do have lots of RPGs, some anti-tank missiles and few anti aircraft deals. But end of the day they are mostly pick up truck borne AKs armed dudes. They do not have artillery (especially FSA) and tanks in very few numbers. They do have good funding from Saudi, Kuwait and UAE shieks. However, it seems some other equation is in play in both the places.



One point I can think of is to defeat the mobile ISIL the US might get a reason to arm and support the FSA. This in the name of avoiding the US ground troops in Iraq or Syria. Emboldening the FSA the US will try to kill two birds with one stone: ISIL and Assad. Both are enemies (ISILatleast on paper and Assad in real) of the FSA.

a reply to: victor7


We have been down this road before thou -

Arming Mujahadeen against Russians.....which developed into the Taliban afterwards.


If we were to take any lessons from history it would be this:

1) Dont stick your nose into another country unless Crimes against Humanity are openly being perpetrated.

2) Dont go arming one group against another that is in power already....that always just ends in disaster.

3) If your going to help militarily, send everyone in, clean the place up in a month or two and be done with it. None of this little token gestures of 5 planes here and 100 troops there etc. Thats just penile-teasing.


I've said it before and I'l say it again.....this is an Arab World problem that the Arab world needs to sort out.

The West shouold just close its border to anyone going out or into any of these regions or neighbouring countries period.

The Saudi nations have more than enough money to deal with the issues themselves. Why should Western forces have to go in to clean up the mess?

If Western forces go in to clean up the mess, we go in hard, en masse, and we WILL clean up the mess BUT with the amount of blood thats been spilt already and the amount that will be spilt in the future, I think the West should take those coutnries under their own control.....permanantly.

Ever since the Imperial POwers left the MidEast area, the place has turned to #.

Re-Imperilise the MidEast....if thats what it will take.

If the Arabs want a dictatorship, give it to them....under Western Leaders and armed forces maintaining the peace.

Then the peace and with it the spoils of war will be ours for good......they;ve had their 100 years to get their house in order.....they havent, so lets take it off them all for good........it may be the only realistic option left.

a reply to: Melbourne_Militia

I think the West should take those coutnries under their own control.....permanantly.

That would be a good reason for AQ/ISIL types to say that whole ME has turned into a scenario of Isreal. Arabs blame Israel for taking over the land of Palestines. In new scenario they will blame the West for taking over the ME. No matter how nice or well locals are treated, more than a few whiners will be there calling themselves being enslaved by the west.

Best scenario is the Secular dictatorship like Gadhaffi/Assad/Mubarak with much more freedoms to general public than were awarded in last 50 years. These dictators will be told to NOT treat national funds as their personal estate and not commit oppression like political prisoners for life or kidnapping women and using them in a harem etc.

The Arabs will also learn the facts of life once the oil is way beyond the peak and realities of life start to ask them serious questions about how to govern their societies in order to keep up with the rest of the peoples on earth.