Why minimum wage jobs are bad

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

You took that train too far. I do own my own business, I guess I do have a mini corporate empire. I own two houses and a motorcycle and two dogs! I think I'm doing pretty good.

I still think almost anyone, 80% of people stuck in minimum wage jobs can crawl out if they just have a blueprint or plan to follow. I did. I'm nothing special.

Good on you - good work!

My point is - and I think you know this, already - not everyone is wired the same way and there isn't a cookie cutter method for anything in life, no matter how much we try to simplify a situation.

You got yours by your own path, but that isn't anyone else's path.

originally posted by: SomePeople

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

You took that train too far. I do own my own business, I guess I do have a mini corporate empire. I own two houses and a motorcycle and two dogs! I think I'm doing pretty good.

I still think almost anyone, 80% of people stuck in minimum wage jobs can crawl out if they just have a blueprint or plan to follow. I did. I'm nothing special.

Good on you - good work!

My point is - and I think you know this, already - not everyone is wired the same way and there isn't a cookie cutter method for anything in life, no matter how much we try to simplify a situation.

You got yours by your own path, but that isn't anyone else's path.

That's a good point. I just think it's important to show people a path and then they either take it, change it to suit their needs or forget it. But people need to be shown that a path exists.

No, what people really need to be shown is how that path is closing. You guys are not seeing the big picture, just the here and now, your anecdotal story. I made several points earlier, and no one addressed them, and no one answered any of my questions. Do you not recognize that we live in a system that is set up so that everything will continue to cost more and more in the future, while wages will continue to stagnate, and small business continues to disappear? What exactly does this accomplish.....it means that the massively wealthy accumulate more and more of the total available wealth. You think this is on accident? it seems to me that one group is saying "things need to be changed, to balance out the inequality in power that the wealthy have vs the poor and workers because it is an issue of growing oppression and is leading in a bad direction", and the other group is saying "no, things are fine. Just ignore all the signs and work hard and stop whining. If you are not doing well, then its your fault and man up, like me."
Well, guess what? Anyone could say the same as group b while ignoring the issues, but it holds no water. There are successful people in Nigeria, in china, in mexico, who could all say the same thing "look, I succeeded, so that means everyone can." This is beside the point. The point is, there is a class war, and one side is fighting its hardest (and handily winning), and the other side is either completely ignorant that they have been full frontal attacked and close to utter defeat, or choose to put their head in the sand. If you don't realize this, you are just not paying attention, or totally self consumed and unaware of the plight of the masses.

originally posted by: onequestion
Hi I'm postulating here and making an assertion so please feel free to educate me.

Companies who pay low wages devalue the entire job market.

If low wage jobs had the bar raised such as mcdonalds it would force the entire labor market to adjust to their income level. The reason this would happen is because in order for companies to compete and find better emoyees they would need to raise the bar or risk not attracting better employees.

Anyway I think that I got the general premise out.

Minimum wage jobs are not "bad," they just have their own particular niche. They are great starters for kids with no skills or job experience to get their start making their own money after school, during the summer, and on weekends. They are great to teach them some pretty important skills like showing up on time.

They are not great as a lifelong career and really shouldn't be used as such.

a reply to: NavyDoc Right. Because a business would always pay us what we're worth, right? They wouldn't take advantage of labor surplus and desperation to drive down wages, would they? And who gets to decide what is worth minimum wage? Yesterday it was bagging groceries and pumping gas, today its CNA's and painters, tomorrow it may be nurses and chefs.

Example.....I started as a psyche tech in Arizona, nice state, average cost of living (I was in phoenix), and as a bachelor degree position it paid well enough.. Started at 32000, median was about 36000, and generous overtime easily bumped it to 50000. It is a stressful job, you deal with violent and psychotic patients all day, you need to be educated in order to understand their pathologies and how to deal with them, and you need to be strong, patient, and mature. Then I move to new Orleans, where the cost of living is much higher, and they decide here that psyche techs don't need a degree, and then they only pay them about minimum wage....not very much more. Then people are getting hurt, suicides happen, care standards are horrific.....but the hospital has made more money by taking it from the workers. In many other places this IS a rewarding, fulfilling job that could make a nice career.....but business would take that away from you. Same for painters and other skilled labor, CNA which you actually have to go to SCHOOL for to make MINIMUM wage, etc. Who decides these are minimum wage jobs? Who decides these are not just as career worthy as working on a computer? Or designing graphic decals, or whatever?

sorry, got cut off. Again, you are missing the point. ALL working class jobs are having decreasing pay. All stocks, shares, CEO's and bankers getting increasing pay. 1% of the world now owns 48% of the worlds wealth. its a pattern. agh.....never mind. You twits will just sit there blaming the poor, like THEY are stealing all the worlds wealth and the reason for the worlds problems. Its like banging my head on a wall. I ask questions and make points backed up by figures and logic, and you guys respond "the poor don't deserve better, and, um, unemployed people are lazy" along with other ideological tripe and sweeping generalizations. This system is not good for society, and your children will have less opportunity to succeed than you. I hope you enjoy your wealth and prosperity at the expense of the future generations slavery.

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

You took that train too far. I do own my own business, I guess I do have a mini corporate empire. I own two houses and a motorcycle and two dogs! I think I'm doing pretty good.

I still think almost anyone, 80% of people stuck in minimum wage jobs can crawl out if they just have a blueprint or plan to follow. I did. I'm nothing special.

Do you honestly believe that, given the tools, machinery and skills, that you could have built all that you have with your own two hands in the hours you have worked thus far in life? If not, then where did that labour come from?

a reply to: pexx421

You are right! Stay at home apply for some sort of government assistance and stay out of the way of those that want to hustle, they don't need anymore competition. Holy cow you're done before you start.

a reply to: MarlinGrace

I could free a thousand slaves, I could free a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.

originally posted by: pexx421
sorry, got cut off. Again, you are missing the point. ALL working class jobs are having decreasing pay. All stocks, shares, CEO's and bankers getting increasing pay. 1% of the world now owns 48% of the worlds wealth. its a pattern. agh.....never mind. You twits will just sit there blaming the poor, like THEY are stealing all the worlds wealth and the reason for the worlds problems. Its like banging my head on a wall. I ask questions and make points backed up by figures and logic, and you guys respond "the poor don't deserve better, and, um, unemployed people are lazy" along with other ideological tripe and sweeping generalizations. This system is not good for society, and your children will have less opportunity to succeed than you. I hope you enjoy your wealth and prosperity at the expense of the future generations slavery.

Your points are spot on but it just boils down to the fact that people have to think too hard about that giant rod in their arse when they participate in the system. They have families and homes and cars and 'stuff to lose'.

Content being a cog in the system and pecking up the chicken feed they're tossed by their superiors. They'll also look at people who don't conform to what they feel (were taught) was right and normal and chastise them, call them lazy and come up with any other justification for their plight.

"It is no sign of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly SICK society."

a reply to: corvuscorrax
People also want to feel like they are above others. They won't admit it or most don't even realize they feel this way.

a reply to: MarlinGrace Was that supposed to make any kind of sense? Was there some meaning there, because if so, I didn't get it. Can anyone here help me out? Was he addressing any of my points? Was he using examples or facts to create points of his own? Or was that just another emotion driven, ideological, talking point garbage response?

a reply to: pexx421

Oh it's going to get bad before it gets worse.

Only an idiot argues with a moron.

They can't see the American underclass and they can't see civil unrest and its happens g in their backyards.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: MrWendal

Real world math shows me this:

$7.50 an hour x a 40 hour work week = $300.00

52 weeks in a year = $15,600.00

12 months in a year means a monthly average of = $1,300.00

Now let's not forget that Uncle Sam takes his stake, and I'll be overly genereous and say it's twenty percent in total deductions - now we're at $1,040.00 per month.

I don't know what region of the country you live in but where I live the rent for an absolute dive ( trailer park or tenament apartment ) is in the $650.00 per month range. Which leaves $390.00 for everything else... Food, utilities, clothing, toiletries, transportation etc.

That's a real world number of about $13.00 per day to cover everything other than rent.

I don't see a whole lot of $200.00 tennis shoes hidden in that math anywhere. In fact I don't even see owning a car ( used or otherwise ) as the insurance would eat up a good deal of that remaining money.

And I'm just talking about one person. No kids.

I am well aware of your math. You just described my life. Real life living shows me this:

I own two motorcycles.
I have my own apartment.
I pay for my cable while my neighbors steal theirs.
I have a cell phone.


Do I own $200 tennis shoes? No. That is an obscene price to pay for tennis shoes. So instead I live within my means and go to Walmart and find a pair of tennis shoes for $30.00 that last just as long as a $200 pair would. Or I take advantage of a deal through my work that allows me to buy shoes of all types directly from a maker at a huge discount and it is taken from my check over 3 deductions. Or, I save. If I want it bad enough, I save up for it.

Oh and did I mention, I still pay child support as well.

A person can live on minimum wage. It's not always easy but it is possible. A lot of it has to do with making smart decisions and finding short cuts. A person paying 650 a month plus utilities didn't look hard enough. That's the going rate where I live. No shortage of trailers. Want to know what I did?

I recently had to move. My girlfriend and I split up and we both moved out of the house we shared. After a lot of searching I found an apartment for 595 a month. But if you remember, just a few lines ago I said you got to find short cuts. My apartment is all utilities included. So I have no electric bill, no water bill, no gas bill. Not too bad for 595 a month huh?

Funny part about it is that there was no listing for this place. I just happened to see a building with a phone number on sign that said "for information call..." and I called it. Over half the units in this building are currently unoccupied.

And before anyone mentions that I make tips.... I dont use my tips to cover what I consider "bills". Things that I need to live. Transportation, food, housing, toiletries. clothing, gas, etc. I actually save my tips. I use my tips for things I want, not things I need. I only pay for the things I need with my paycheck.

flipping burgers at McDonalds is not worth $15/hr, that would turn the dollar menu into the 3 dollar menu, and the prices of everything else would go up for cheap food.

McDonalds is a job for teens and people down on their luck, it's not a career and will never be paid as such. A dental assistant might make $15/hr after wasting a bunch of money on education; is it fair to make the same at McDonalds?


People wanting fast food jobs to pay $15 an hour are people with no drive to start a real career.

Ultimately, you are in charge of how much you make. Why would you let someone dictate your wages? Work up the ladder.

I think there are a number of reasons, some from quite different perspectives though for why the minimum wage is so bad.

First of all anyone earning just the minimum can't help the economy to grow with their spending power and its spending power that buys goods and services.

It not alright to denigrate people who don't want to run their own businesses. Humanity is made up of people who can lead and innovate, people who manage the innovations and businesses of others and people who do the running, with common sense. You need these three types within a business, so comments on anyone cao do things are lost because that model doesn't fit mankind.

The standard of work delivered by people trapped on the minimum wage is sinking yearly. Look at the inefficiencies that are showing up in our society everywhere. Forgotten appointments, mistakes/errors and an apathy. People go to work to earn money and if they are rewarded for what they do, the majority of people do well.

We might be in a world that is technoligically changing where many jobs will be lost but its our innovation to dream up other types of work or things to do and ensure the money is there spread throughout rather than stagnating under some old whoare's butt boosting their megalowmaniac character .

originally posted by: odaeio

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

You took that train too far. I do own my own business, I guess I do have a mini corporate empire. I own two houses and a motorcycle and two dogs! I think I'm doing pretty good.

I still think almost anyone, 80% of people stuck in minimum wage jobs can crawl out if they just have a blueprint or plan to follow. I did. I'm nothing special.

Do you honestly believe that, given the tools, machinery and skills, that you could have built all that you have with your own two hands in the hours you have worked thus far in life? If not, then where did that labour come from?

From people who got off their arses, did not accept flipping burgers for minimum wage, and exchanged their house making and motorcycle building skills for the goods (money) and/or services he gave them in exchange for their labor.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: NavyDoc Right. Because a business would always pay us what we're worth, right? They wouldn't take advantage of labor surplus and desperation to drive down wages, would they? And who gets to decide what is worth minimum wage? Yesterday it was bagging groceries and pumping gas, today its CNA's and painters, tomorrow it may be nurses and chefs.

Example.....I started as a psyche tech in Arizona, nice state, average cost of living (I was in phoenix), and as a bachelor degree position it paid well enough.. Started at 32000, median was about 36000, and generous overtime easily bumped it to 50000. It is a stressful job, you deal with violent and psychotic patients all day, you need to be educated in order to understand their pathologies and how to deal with them, and you need to be strong, patient, and mature. Then I move to new Orleans, where the cost of living is much higher, and they decide here that psyche techs don't need a degree, and then they only pay them about minimum wage....not very much more. Then people are getting hurt, suicides happen, care standards are horrific.....but the hospital has made more money by taking it from the workers. In many other places this IS a rewarding, fulfilling job that could make a nice career.....but business would take that away from you. Same for painters and other skilled labor, CNA which you actually have to go to SCHOOL for to make MINIMUM wage, etc. Who decides these are minimum wage jobs? Who decides these are not just as career worthy as working on a computer? Or designing graphic decals, or whatever?

Yes, in a free market, you get paid for what you are worth, not what you THINK you are worth. Like any commodity, the value of your labor goes up and down depending on supply and demand. If you've got 1 CNA job and 100 qualified applicants, then that labor is not worth much. If you've got 100 CNA jobs and a single qualified applicant, then that individual pretty much can get the salary he demands.

You moved from a location where psych tech is an educated and trained job where qualified applicants are not common and thus demand a larger paycheck to an area where they are not educated and not as skilled or trained and thus have a larger labor pool due to less stringent requirements and thus are paid less.

You actually described quite clearly how the market decides the value of jobs, even though you didn't understand it yourself. I'd say the fault lies with you. Why would you move from a place where you were paid more and had a less expensive standard of living to where you were paid less and a higher cost of living? Sounds like you made a bad choice with the move and now just want to blame everyone else.

a reply to: xstealth No, as I described before, labor is 20-25% of costs, so it would turn the dollar menu to the dollar twenty five menu. Assuming the business didn't use it as an excuse to gouge, as they normally do. Its not market forces, its what they can get away with.

a reply to: NavyDoc No. What I actually described is how a place with no worker protections and representation contrasts with a place WITH those things. I showed the difference, the reality, that business will exploit to the fullest given the opportunity. There are 100 MILLION unemployed americans, one third of the work force. There is an infinite labor pool. This situation is maintained and exploited, as I pointed out many times, through price fixing, wage fixing, lax immigration policies, and outsourcing, in order to force wage costs down. The business market and legislation is intentionally manipulated to extract as much profit as possible from workers and customers. Businesses have NO care for society or the community, and only give what they are held to the fire to give. That is the point, my friends. I am not that worried for myself....I don't care to work at a minimum wage job, I have skills and know that they will provide a lucrative and enjoyable life with the things I want, like a nice home for my family, travel, etc. I also know, from my observations of current events and history, that if my children follow in my footsteps to my career path, they will have a lower standard of living than I do.....no matter what it really was that I chose to do. I am not happy with this. I am not happy with the idea that my children will need to do a much higher skilled job or a market manipulation job (banker, finance), in order to match the lifestyle that we can have now with a middle skilled labor job (ultrasound).