Why minimum wage jobs are bad

a reply to: tothetenthpower

1971 is the absolute END of capitalism in America. Your chart proves that socialism cause the death of the middle class and the growth of the 1%. Your most hated capitalism died and now in France at the very least we have the liberals version of heaven on Earth. Let me know how your beloved socialism is working out for them. You should move there now I suppose it must be so wonderful.

originally posted by: Iscool

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: onequestion

The reason is simple. A chart can show just about anybody why GREED is the primary reason wages are low.

The cost of living has increased, inflation has occurred a hundred times over, but wages have stagnated.

Why is this?

Greed!

~Tenth

That's true but how is this greed played out??? Shipping Americans jobs overseas to take advantage of cheaper costs...Flooding the American market with cheap, illegal labor which keeps the cost of labor way down...

Solutions are there but the American people seem to be too doggone stupid to demand the change necessary to fix it...

How many of these companies are actually owned by Americans?

It seems to me that the major manufacturers are owned or have major shareholders from people from other countries. Albeit another symptom of greed.

It seems like the wealthy elite in America have their hands in resources more then manufacturing. Obviously there are Americans who have their hands in this as well but I'm just saying it seems like more and more that Americans own less and less.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: beezzer

Thinking that all people who work 40 hours should make enough money to have a moderately comfortable life ( housing, food, transportation, with enough left for the necessities and maybe a bit of fun ) is not the same as saying that entry and executive should be equal.

What makes you think you can't? I do not make 15/hour and I have enough money for these things. It's called living within my means. Instead of buying that nice new car and putting myself $50,000 in debt to do so- I buy used cars. Usually for about $500.00 and I then fix them up over time and make them reliable. I may even turn around and sell it for 3-4 times my investment.

I actually work in the service industry. If I were to include my tips, I still make less than $15/hr. I have my own place. My own transportation. Plenty of food. There is nothing I actually need at the moment because I have bought it all already. I also have plenty left over. As a matter of fact I am considering buying a new fish for my aquarium which will cost me $75.00...... for a damn fish. A couple years ago I would not have even considered such a purchase.

By all means, advancement and achievement should be recognized. The people who shine and stand out by their work ethic should make more money than those who do not sacrifice as much of themselves.

In a perfect world yes- but the world is not perfect. I do not know a person with a better work ethic than myself. I work hurt. I work sick. I rarely miss a day. At work, I give 200% and make sure that everything is done right. My place of employment has about 6,000 works- but I am one of 24 who is up for employee of the year and I can honestly say I don't deserve $15/hr for the work I do- simply cause I work 40 hours a week at it.

Working 40 hours a week at McDonald's- you can still live. You just have to be smart. If that means I can't afford the new iphone 6- then that's how it is. Part of the problem here is that too many people think they are entitled to what they want when they want it. I see it every day with those I work with. I have one girl who complains non stop about not making enough money. Not enough in wages- not enough in tips- it's never enough. She can't afford her rent. She can't afford her car payment. She has 4 kids. The light bill is due. It's so hard.

Yes it is hard. Know what I never hear her say? I never hear her say, 'maybe I should NOT buy this brand new car with a high interest rate/ huge down payment/ and high monthly payments'. I never hear her say, 'Maybe I should buy just what I need instead of just what I want'. While she complains about how she doesn't make enough money to live- she refuses to acknowledge that maybe she would have more money if she didn't shop every single day. Maybe things would be easier if she didn't buy every pair of new shoes she finds. Maybe instead of having a closet full of 200 sneakers (and that number is NOT an exaggeration- she really has 200 pairs of sneakers), she should have only bought maybe 5. The women has shoes she has never even worn and yet still buys more.

The problem is that a three tier system has become a two tiered one in the past three decades. The vast middle drying up and leaving, in it's wake, a very polarized financial gulf between the successful and the surviving.

And how does throwing money at this problem actually fix it?

a reply to: MrWendal

Real world math shows me this:

$7.50 an hour x a 40 hour work week = $300.00

52 weeks in a year = $15,600.00

12 months in a year means a monthly average of = $1,300.00

Now let's not forget that Uncle Sam takes his stake, and I'll be overly genereous and say it's twenty percent in total deductions - now we're at $1,040.00 per month.

I don't know what region of the country you live in but where I live the rent for an absolute dive ( trailer park or tenament apartment ) is in the $650.00 per month range. Which leaves $390.00 for everything else... Food, utilities, clothing, toiletries, transportation etc.

That's a real world number of about $13.00 per day to cover everything other than rent.

I don't see a whole lot of $200.00 tennis shoes hidden in that math anywhere. In fact I don't even see owning a car ( used or otherwise ) as the insurance would eat up a good deal of that remaining money.

And I'm just talking about one person. No kids.

So here's one take.

I had a job at a fast food restaurant. I was making minimum wage and was a grunt doing all the dirty work. I hated it and wanted more. So I became a shift manager. Anyone with any ambition can do that. Then I worked my way into being an assistant manager. All of a sudden I was making more than minimum wage. Then I also had a better resume and was able to get better jobs.

I'm not making any judgement on anyone. Just relating my experience. Then, the next guy out of high school took over my minimum wage job and I moved up the food chain. Eventually figuring out how to network, take some college classes, make a better resume and ace interviews. (I bought books on interviews and borrowed them from libraries).

Eventually that led to being a (just above minimum wage employee at a better industry) then I used the same formula and moved up the food chain there. The one secret was that I worked harder then anyone else there. That's easy to do.

Today I own my own business.

So that's the secret, right. Have a detailed plan of action like that for everyone to follow to escape the minimum wage jobs.

a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

ok, read a few pages, missed a few, as I've read so many minimum wage posts recently. A few thoughts I want to add. 1) The cost of the goods only increases based on the labor portion, and as labor is usually 20-25%, a, say, 100% increase in wages would still only lead to a 25% increase in the cost of the goods passed on. Therefore, goods increase a bit, but the workers have DOUBLE the income, and will probably be using that to buy said goods, leading to an increased standard of living for them, and more sales for the company. Keeping in mind, this is not passed on to such things as rent, services (cable, network, etc), etc, where the labor cost is a smaller fraction of the pricing.....ie, their standard of living is increased by more than the +75% calculation you might assume by just adding 25% to expenses across the board.

2) And I don't know why people don't realize this one.....we live in a system where costs are ALWAYS rising and always GOING TO BE rising. At the same time our business model is set up to always be forcing real wages down. THIS IS THE SYSTEM. This is a fact. What you all seem to miss is that this means that people with similar type jobs (other than CEOS, bankers, etc) over time will experience a constantly decreasing standard of living. A nurse today will not have the same standard of living as a nurse from 10 years ago, and a decade from now nurses will be doing even worse. I use nursing as an example, but put any job title in there and it applies. Particularly to those making minimum wage. The idea that we all just need to work hard, and live within our means....well, that hard work, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION HERE, is giving less of a return every damn year. GOT THAT? And living within our means is an ever shrinking bubble. I don't really care how much you think you make now compared to what you made when you were 20, that's not the point. Its that you will make less doing it than your dad did. And I don't mean dollar amounts either, I mean actual spending power.

and lastly 3) why does minimum wage exist? I will tell you why. It exists to put a bottom level on the owners attempts to make all wages a race to the bottom. Through price fixing, manipulation, worker surplus, and outsourcing, as well as lax immigration enforcement, businesses have attempted (as they always have done, and will do) to drive labor costs down so they can exploit the worker as much as possible. Apparently many people here either don't believe worker exploitation exists, or don't think its a bad thing.....ie, they feel businesses should be "entitled" to make people work as hard as the company wants, to produce a good product, and to not have to pay that worker a fair amount for their time and effort. Similar mindset as those people who don't tip, feeling "entitled" to someone providing them a service (because regardless of what you think, service industry, waiting tables, etc, is hard work), and then not having to pay them for it. I don't understand why people think its ok for businesses (or diners) to exploit workers, but its not fair for workers to demand better pay.

One last thing. to the people asking how many people in a family a "living wage" is supposed to support, and then going on about children, spouses, etc. Don't be ludicrous. A "living wage" is meant to be enough to feed yourself (actual food here, not garbage), have a minimal living arrangement (think studio, efficiency, rent a room), pay basic bills, clothe yourself, and not be in a declining spiral of debt where as time goes on your chances of advancing your life in some positive fashion become slimmer and slimmer. Its very reasonable, and not meant to support a spouse and your 3.7 kids, so stop the hyperbole.

a reply to: pexx421

Ahhh pexx, the long awaited response.

And thanks for calling bs Heff, I was going to do it but your response was better then Anything I would have said.

thanks, good to see you too, onequestion. Another thing I'd like to point out. The situation is this, the business owners and corporations have ALL the power in these situations, and exert it to make sure that the vast majority of the growth in profit in our country has gone to them, and little or none to the workers. These groups manipulate the system with their massive power and influence so that they may pay workers less and less, and give them less benefits as well. Workers, on the other hand, have very little power to pursue their own welfare. Why do people who argue the corporations side on this issue ignore this fact? Why do they ignore the fact that it IS a conflict between workers and owners, and always has been? And that its unfairly balanced in a huge degree towards the owners? Why do they refuse to realize the fondest wish and end goal of our corporate owner class is debt peonage for everyone else? This is not debatable, its exactly what these same corporations do in third world countries. They spend hundreds of billions of dollars on it every year bribing congress to bring about those ends here. You say "work hard, and work your way up" but the bar that you can work yourself up to is lowering every year, and the available businesses or positions that you can aspire to decrease in number every year too. Maybe several decades ago anyone could work hard, save up, and rent an office to sell tools, for instance, in. That is gone. As are the vast majority of other mom and pop shop ownership options. The vast majority of new business ventures are corporate investment, and average joe cannot compete.

a reply to: pexx421

Small business is over especially if the fed continues the trend of inflation through QE.

They don't k ow what they are advocating for. They think hard work matters in massive corporations, they think it's the 1950's. It's brainwashing.

I'm working at a printing plant right now making 8.25 an hr temporarily while I wait on another opportunity in 1-2 weeks working back in carpentry.

Well there is a union contract negotiation happening right now. They want to cut the pension for a 401k, cut medical benefits, cut two weeks vacation time, and reduce the workforce.

oh I forgot to mention a 3% pay cut across the board.

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

You took that train too far. I do own my own business, I guess I do have a mini corporate empire. I own two houses and a motorcycle and two dogs! I think I'm doing pretty good.

I still think almost anyone, 80% of people stuck in minimum wage jobs can crawl out if they just have a blueprint or plan to follow. I did. I'm nothing special.

agh, that's rough. The struggle is real, ha! I worked as a psych tech for 10 years, started out in Arizona. Originally the pay was ok, about 50k with a little overtime, which is four days a week, 12 hour shifts, and the benefits were great, low cost and covered everything with no deductible and little copay. Also a Christmas bonus of $400 every year...not much, but enough for Christmas shopping. Now, having moved to a state with no unions or representation of any sort (Louisiana), the pay for most of the psych hospitals around here is 8-11/hour (that was a rough shock), there have been no raises in any hospital I have worked at out here for the last 6 years, and the benefits are dismal with high deductables, and limited coverage. Oh, don't even ask about a bonus. I went to school to reclass as an ultrasound tech, but since graduating I have yet to find a job (5 months), and the starting pay at most is 18 an hour (8 years ago it was 25). Of course, there is also the on call pay which pretty much doubles your salary, so its pretty good. So in the meantime I'm stuck delivering pizza....which isn't bad, it usually nets me about 12-15 an hour average, but its far from what I worked (and am working) for.

a reply to: amazing To some degree, amazing. My point is that our ability to do it now is less than it was in the past. And our kids ability in the future will be less too. Recognize that, as this is what all these debates are about.....that TPTB in our country have instituted a system that over time is gradually eroding our ability to "work hard, plan, and get ahead". How many people now have worked their way up and started their own business? How does it compare to 30 years ago? How do you think it will compare to your children, or grand children? The issue is that we have a collapsing percentage of social mobility, it is gradual, and it is increasing. That's why its a problem. No one is saying that its impossible to succeed.....just that it is improbable, and growing more improbable over time. Do you not recognize this? Do all the people on this forum arguing the bootstraps line not recognize that a huge amount of middle class jobs evaporated, and the main growth since then has been service sector? Do you guys not recognize that social mobility has fallen far behind of most of Europe? Do you not recognize that we are getting diminishing returns for our labor and effort? Do you not recognize that minimum wage MUST increase in dollar amount to actually stay the same (as inflation and cost of living increase)? Are you just ok with the fact that the vast majority of our country WILL experience a declining standard of living so that that wealthy company can add an extra billion to its profit (which will not be reinvested into our communities)? Are you ok with the fact that workers are more exploited every year? Are you, amazing, specifically, ok with the fact that your children will likely not have the opportunity to work their way up the way you did, and will likely make less money at it than you do?

a reply to: pexx421

The construction market is similar. Everyone keeps saying trade jobs are in demand but they aren't. It's year long waits to get into unions and illegal immigration has killed wages for the last 10-20 years.

I'm asking for 20$ an hour to run a flooring crew in two weeks I'm hoping to walk away with 18 to start. Trust me I'll be counting my lucky stars unfit works out and I'll be working my ass off to do a damn good job.

An interesting read for you all:

richest 1% of people now own 48% of the worlds resources

We can talk about hard work and earning your place or people with a sense of entitlement all we want. When 1% of the worlds richest people own 48% of it's assets, there is something wrong. That disparity is only continuing to increase, and it will eventually reach a tipping point.

It WILL blow up in our faces (all of us, not just the wealthy). It's not a question of if, but when.

It isn't the corporations who are creating the bulk of the wealth in the first place, it IS the workers.

EVERY COG in the machine matters, because if there were NO little slave worker bees:

A) The CEO would be mopping the bathrooms and flipping their own burgers.

B) The CEO would not be able to enjoy their elite "bonuses" or fancy vacations, because they would be FAR too busy working all of those positions that they take for granted each and every day.

I just wish that humans would hurry up and EVOLVE already.

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

Because he/she wanted to be self employed. I congratulate Amazing for participating in the American dream, it is still available if your mindset doesn't stop you from seeing the opportunities available. It just takes some serious work, an open mind to see the available opportunities out there, and the willingness to act and accept the challenge. This is what people from other countries see, they arrive with a different mindset, one that doesn't hinder their approach to success at any level. The question is what's the level you want?

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

Because he/she wanted to be self employed. I congratulate Amazing for participating in the American dream, it is still available if your mindset doesn't stop you from seeing the opportunities available. It just takes some serious work, an open mind to see the available opportunities out there, and the willingness to act and accept the challenge. This is what people from other countries see, they arrive with a different mindset, one that doesn't hinder their approach to success at any level. The question is what's the level you want?

Exactly. Agree with you 100% for once. I think that's a first? LOL

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: SomePeople
a reply to: amazing

Well then why aren't you now a CEO of a huge corporate empire - apparently anyone can do it.

Because he/she wanted to be self employed. I congratulate Amazing for participating in the American dream, it is still available if your mindset doesn't stop you from seeing the opportunities available. It just takes some serious work, an open mind to see the available opportunities out there, and the willingness to act and accept the challenge. This is what people from other countries see, they arrive with a different mindset, one that doesn't hinder their approach to success at any level. The question is what's the level you want?

Exactly. Agree with you 100% for once. I think that's a first? LOL

A first? Well we have to start somewhere. I have a very great respect for someone that does it on their own. Even if a person fails at the attempt at least we learn things for the next time. Congrats I know the effort and responsibility it takes.

Thanks, MG

Correct me if my thinking is wrong, but my opinion is that we need to adjust the cost of living (if that's possible) before we worry about minimum wage. If the people who say that raising minimum wage would make things more expensive are correct in their thinking, raising minimum wage isn't going to solve the problem because you'll be making more but things would cost more, making the raise not even matter.

I've seen a lot of things that say that the price of some items would hardly raise if peoples wages were raised, but we won't know until it happens, and if it does happen, we're all screwed.

We need to cut out the amount of greed that people have. People are extremely greedy and that's half of the problem, I think.