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Deserter: Iraq war is 'illegal'

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posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 11:14 PM
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One must wonder if Mr. Hinzman ever considered that desertion is illegal, or that he cannot be ordered to do something illegal and that he has legal recourse if he is ordered to do something illegal, or that he alone has no authority to determine what is legal.

The Congress authorized the invasion of Iraq. He joined he Army knowing what the Army's mission is. Even if some soldiers commit illegal acts, it is not an excuse to declare the invasion illegal.

The man's case has no legal merit that I can discern, albeit, I am a Social Worker, not a lawyer.

Maybe this one paragraph tell us all we need to know about Hinzman:



After graduating from high school in 1996, Jeremy spent most of the next four years working as baker. Because of his utter incompetence, he no longer does it for a living, but baking is a passion that has remained with him to this very day. If anyone wants a great recipe for moist vegan brownies, drop him a line and he will be happy to divulge the secret.

www.jeremyhinzman.net...


But, to give the man his due, he did successfully negotiate Airborne training, something I cannot claim and many of my friends who have done so have attested to its rigor.

I can certainly understand his having had a conversion experience and I personnally believe in such things, but I would think that the values one would find in such an experience would lead one to honor one's legal obligations.

Regardless of any other consideration, the man is no better than any other felon.



[edit on 04/12/8 by GradyPhilpott]




posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 11:45 PM
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IMHO I think the guy has more guts than those he left behind.
It's easy to go along and do as ordered without question, even if you disagree.
To stand up to the "man" and say "NO I don't agree with this" and act on it takes a lot of guts!


Some ppl don't take killing as lightly as you forum warriors.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

To stand up to the "man" and say "NO I don't agree with this" and act on it takes a lot of guts!


Some ppl don't take killing as lightly as you forum warriors.


He actually did not stand up to "the man," he fled the country and sought asylum in a foreign country.

Not all of us are forum warriors. Even forum warriors can know right from wrong.

[edit on 04/12/9 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
IMHO I think the guy has more guts than those he left behind.
It's easy to go along and do as ordered without question, even if you disagree.
To stand up to the "man" and say "NO I don't agree with this" and act on it takes a lot of guts!


Some ppl don't take killing as lightly as you forum warriors.


Bologna!

Your point would make more sense if he did not join the military in the field/position he chose to go into! Do you know what a Paratrooper is?

I guess it's okay for a firefighter to turn around and say, "I never liked that family! I don't agree w/how they raise their kids! Let the house burn!" Then, drop the hose and walk away.

Or, what about a city cop? Is it okay for him to decide not to respond to a 911 call just because he doesn't agree w/something? NO IT'S NOT OKAY! Do your job (that you voluntarily chose to train for, BTW)! If you don't like it, don't take the money you are offered to do it!



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK
IMHO I think the guy has more guts than those he left behind.
It's easy to go along and do as ordered without question, even if you disagree.
To stand up to the "man" and say "NO I don't agree with this" and act on it takes a lot of guts!


Some ppl don't take killing as lightly as you forum warriors.


Umm ok so he has more guts than the soldiers in Iraq risking their lives. He has so much courage that he had to run across the boarder to state his case.
Come on, the guy is just plain gutless. If he had any sort of guts as you say he'd face the music, not run away and try and claim refugee status.

Gawd



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 01:26 AM
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@ Sour Grapes
Yes I know what a paratrooper is, I was in the military, what's yer point?



When the guy joined up it did not say on his contract that he would be unable to distinguish whether he was shooting civilians or that he would be forced to participate in an illegal war. Just because you join up doesn't mean you should do what you don't believe in.
This war is unjust, he realised that, and I salute him for deciding not to participate.
If you think this war is wrong then you should support him. Can't be on both sides of the fence at the same time.
If you think this war is just then you deserve the future that's comming.

You'll so quick to judge, from just a little bit of info from a web site you would condemn a man.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 01:39 AM
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I watched 9/11 happen live on the news,i rang my dad approx 11pm here in Perth western Australia to make sure he was watching it,he was, i have only seen him cry once before in my life,this was the second time.I have served in the volunteer fire brigade for approx 15 years and i`m a metalworker by trade,my knee jerk reaction to the horror of 9/11 was the want to buy a ticket and fly to NY to help anyway i can,realizing i would`nt be allowed to i had to watch helplessly like the majority of deeply concerned people around the world.
Our PM Howard was over their trying to get a fair deal on our trade but being again snubbed by the US gov but anyway.he in NY at the time of 9/11 immediately invoked the anzac treaty and gave the US our full support which i was proud of,i`m not proud of it anymore and i hate the way the US has dragged our few troops into an unjust war.why not Saudi or Pakistan thats where the terrorists are many coming from?
I feel sorry for the US troops just doing what their told by an evil government using 9/11 for their own agenda God help those troops and innocent civilians in Iraq,so in MHO this guy your trying to hang isn't a coward he just realizes that his country is at fault,i`ll guarantee the same guy would fight tooth and nails if another country invaded the US!
I personally would have given my service and life at the start of all this,but knowing what i know now that would have been a waste of my life,i`m not educated but that dos`nt make me stupid.Here comes the NWO thanks very much US UK AUS gov,it really makes me wonder if OBL is in on it as well?
oh sorry my first post as well hi to all at ATS



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
former staff sergeant Jimmy Massey recounted how nervous soldiers trained to believe that all Iraqis were potential terrorists often opened fire indiscriminately.


You know, I wasn't in Iraq, but I can totally relate to this. In Korea, we were constantly being told about the danger of the "middle eastern spies" that were lurking around South Korea. It go the point where we were on lockdown numerous times because of espionage sacres and such. Eventually, some of my fellow soldiers were in the mindset that every middle-eastern man that was in Korea was a spy or terrorist. I like to think of myself as fairly open-minded, and I saw past this and realized that not every middle-eastern man in Korea was a spy or terrorist, and perhaps none of them were.I guess I can understand the Army's reasoning behind this, but if it's causing soldiers to fire on civilians for no reason, then that's just making this war worse than it already is, and that's saying a lot.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK

If you think this war is just then you deserve the future that's comming.

You'll so quick to judge, from just a little bit of info from a web site you would condemn a man.


Anok, that is right. I myself have decided to cease all efforts of helping the sheeple. In the end, it is their choice, and they have chosen this. As sad, disheartening, and funny as that is. We need to just help ourselves and our family.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 08:33 AM
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Bill O'Reilly, Fox news, CBS and so on have given this story nothing but a pro-war, pro fight and kill for your country spin and have fully opinionated themselves to the prosecuting side. Not a single American news source or reporter that i have found has been willing to sympathize with Jeremy and his refusal to kill innocent humans. It's pretty sad actually and could potential harm our freedom of information in this country. I'm sure a few left leaning media companies might wish to report pro-hinzman news but the results would be a catastrophic image bash and France loving title branded on their hynnies.

So now we live in republican times and things are done the Texan way. Either you're in our you're out, and if you're out, oh boy we'll make you feel sorry that you stand alone. Anybody else get that feeling these days regarding our society since the republicans took power?

anyways,

I believe Jeremy signed up in 2000 because those mind numbing "be all that you can be, in the aaaaarmy" commercials appeared to offer good oportunities when the grass was greener. We can only speculate but i'm almost certain he believed a few quick years in the military service would involve training but never the task of taking innocent lives. I'll be in and out before you know it and the military will provide me a better future.

Like i said though, we can only speculate.

On another note. Iraqi's are innocent you know that right? they have never waged a war against America or fought to kill Americans other than self defence, and self defence within their own region/soil. If you're trying to justify Saddams brutal treatment of his own people, well that's been happening since the dawn of civilization and across the globe even to this date. What about Dafur in Sudan? the true genocide is happening in that country where the benefits of resolve is next to nothing, yes no profit and nothing but a huge price tag.

As far as Hinzman being awarded asylum in Canada? it's 50/50 were both side provide a strong case. In the end, Canada should and will deport him back to the US otherwise that would pour salt on our mending of relationship wounds.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
his testimony is geared towards helping him achieve asylum status


I can't believe his 'testimony'. He has things to gain from
lieing. However, I would like to see some psychological
tests run on him. He might actually believe what he is
saying. There could be a psychosis here .... Then the
'asylum' that he needs would be with mental health
professionals.

In order to believe him, I need backup testimoney from
credible sources that have nothing to gain (or perhaps
even things to loose) by coming forward.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
In the end, Canada should and will deport him back to the US otherwise that would pour salt on our mending of relationship wombs.


I agree that he should be deported to stand trial for his crimes and I would certainly hate to see salt poured into the collective uterus of Canadians and Americans.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by syntaxer
his testimony is geared towards helping him achieve asylum status


I can't believe his 'testimony'. He has things to gain from
lieing. However, I would like to see some psychological
tests run on him. He might actually believe what he is
saying. There could be a psychosis here .... Then the
'asylum' that he needs would be with mental health
professionals.

In order to believe him, I need backup testimoney from
credible sources that have nothing to gain (or perhaps
even things to loose) by coming forward.



My unbias opinion of this guy is he is a coward! Fear and cowardice causes the issues he raises. If he really "Believed" his own garbage he would not run away and hide. He is a COWARD plain and simple. It's better that he isn't in Iraq anymore, he would get too many GOOD men killed.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by DrHoracid]



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by syntaxer
Bill O'Reilly, Fox news, CBS and so on have given this story nothing but a pro-war, pro fight and kill for your country spin and have fully opinionated themselves to the prosecuting side. Not a single American news source or reporter that i have found has been willing to sympathize with Jeremy and his refusal to kill innocent humans.

I think you're wrong there. Many, including myself, have said that they understood how a man can come to the place in his heart that Hinzman has. Arriving at that decison takes a certain level of maturity. So does what you do next. The problem we have with him, is, what do you do when you've made that decision? Do you face the consequences of breaching a contract or do you desert?

So now we live in republican times and things are done the Texan way. Either you're in our you're out, and if you're out, oh boy we'll make you feel sorry that you stand alone. Anybody else get that feeling these days regarding our society since the republicans took power?

You know, I hear that term "You're either with us or you're against us" being used in a pejorative sense often here on ATS, and I don't understand why. The exact phrase was "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." I don't see what is wrong with that. People have used it to portray Bush as a loose cannon, but when you look at the stakes, and the threats that have been put upon our culture by the terrorists, it seems prudent to be prepered.




I believe Jeremy signed up in 2000 because those mind numbing "be all that you can be, in the aaaaarmy" commercials appeared to offer good oportunities when the grass was greener. We can only speculate but i'm almost certain he believed a few quick years in the military service would involve training but never the task of taking innocent lives. I'll be in and out before you know it and the military will provide me a better future.

Like when you order that steak because of what it looks like it the picture, right?



On another note. Iraqi's are innocent you know that right? they have never waged a war against America or fought to kill Americans other than self defence, and self defence within their own region/soil.
:
What about Dafur in Sudan? the true genocide is happening in that country where the benefits of resolve is next to nothing, yes no profit and nothing but a huge price tag.

The people are innocent; Saddam wasn't. Neither are the insurgent and Fedayeen remnants that are murdering innocent Iraqis. Saddam funded terrorism abroad, and offered solace to terrorists, such as operating on Zarqawi's leg after he had been injured in Afghanistan.

Darfur, a tragedy. Where is Kofi Annan irt that holocaust? Why isn't he in the forefront of a solid response?



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid


My unbias opinion of this guy is he is a coward!

Why in the world should anyone think that you can hold an unbiased opinion?
And what 'professional' are you supposed to be exactly?



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 05:15 PM
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I have seen some good comments and some that I think are bad. We all have right to speak our peace, but you have to remember the bottom line here is he was not drafted he enlisted. He has now deserted, that means he is wrong no matter what kind of spin you want to put on it.



I hope he gets his butt burned. Had this been a real war that was officialy declared he could have gotten what he deserves DEATH.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by shots
[font=Arial]

I hope he gets his butt burned. Had this been a real war that was officialy declared he could have gotten what he deserves DEATH.


You guys are a trip, you would really kill a man for deserting?
Would YOU pull the trigger?
Or would you just sit back in your chair and let the state do it for you, comfortable in the fact that the blood is on someone elses hands?
What about his family? They didn't desert. But they will also sufer for their loss.
Would you have your brother shot if he deserted? Your Sister, mother, father?
All for an illegal war that shouldn't have happened in the first place?
Did you think about that?



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by shots
[font=Arial]

I hope he gets his butt burned. Had this been a real war that was officialy declared he could have gotten what he deserves DEATH.


You guys are a trip, you would really kill a man for deserting?
Would YOU pull the trigger?
Or would you just sit back in your chair and let the state do it for you, comfortable in the fact that the blood is on someone elses hands?
What about his family? They didn't desert. But they will also sufer for their loss.
Would you have your brother shot if he deserted? Your Sister, mother, father?
All for an illegal war that shouldn't have happened in the first place?
Did you think about that?


What about all those who do go to war and die because this COWARD ran away. Yes put him to death, and fast. Yes, I would put my brother down for deserting also. What happened to honor.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 07:19 PM
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You guys are a trip, you would really kill a man for deserting? - YES

Would YOU pull the trigger? - YES

Or would you just sit back in your chair and let the state do it for you, comfortable in the fact that the blood is on someone elses hands? - NO

What about his family? They didn't desert. But they will also sufer for their loss. - I didn't cause their pain, he did.

Would you have your brother shot if he deserted? Your Sister, mother, father? - YES, YES, YES, and YES

All for an illegal war that shouldn't have happened in the first place?
Did you think about that? - It's your belief that this is an illegal war. I appreciate that, but it is counter to my belief.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
You guys are a trip, you would really kill a man for deserting?
Would YOU pull the trigger?
Or would you just sit back in your chair and let the state do it for you, comfortable in the fact that the blood is on someone elses hands?
What about his family? They didn't desert. But they will also sufer for their loss.
Would you have your brother shot if he deserted? Your Sister, mother, father?
All for an illegal war that shouldn't have happened in the first place?
Did you think about that?


No, I wouldn't kill him for deserting. I don't believe he should be put to death. I also don't believe I'd be able to put him to death. I don't believe I could kill anybody (out of self defense), which is one reason I'm not fit to be a soldier. Funny, I know this why didn't he?



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