Nazi America has risen

Indigo Child,

I have not seen the video in question here, but I have seen other evidences that point to what your hinting at. The military may have had good intentions going into Iraq, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You will find that even staunch Liberals like myself cant blame the soldiers for thier actions. The soldiers are only following orders. The soldiers are doing the job they signed up for. Where you disgust and anger should be directed towards is the leadership of this country that is asking these kids to do the things they are doing. Most of them are kids. 19,20 years old for the most part.

I dont know if you are old enough to remember Vietnam. If not, you shold do some research on it. The soldiers at that time were asked to do truly horrible things in the name of democracy.

I know your attempting a politically incorrect approach, have fun just don't say no one told you so. As for am I agains't genocide, your damn well skippy I am. Only thing is, like I stated in my first post, none of this is really news. Horrible events happen everyday, and night all over the world like they have for hundreds of years. The only difference now from then, is now there is more media.

You will find reports on inhumanity at the hands of the US and every nation from just about any time period.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Have some friggin sense to distiguish between those that issue the orders, those that have to follow them, and those that have been forced to stay at war against their will....And those that sit on the sidelines gasping, and choking back tears with every atrocity. Again I say, the constitution is not thy enemy. Look to those who willfully defy it for that. Get a grip, man.

A solider has the right to disobey any inconstitutional, unlawful, or morally wrong orders. This is what a true heroic solider does. He upholds the values and duties he joined the army for, to protect and serve the people.
Even the Nazi's were following orders, should I excuse them, as just misguided people? Should I just excuse the sadistic murders commited by them?

There is a saying, it takes two to tango.

And I want to add to your thought Advisor:

As you will find inhumanity throughout history FROM ALL NATIONS, not just the US...


I challenge anybody on this board to find me just one nation, just one that is clean of inhumane acts or corruption, just one.

The beauty of the US is that we regularly shed our leadership in the hopes of improving ourselves. We don�t always succeed (Dubya) but he too, will eventually be replaced.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child


A solider has the right to disobey any inconstitutional, unlawful, or morally wrong orders.

This tells me you have never been in military service before. Yes, the law says you dont have to follow an unlawful order. Military law says you WILL follow ALL ordes given, wether you agree with them or not. When you are in the military, your not really a person anymore, your property. A number.

I have not seen the video in question here, but I have seen other evidences that point to what your hinting at. The military may have had good intentions going into Iraq, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Then please see the video. It is clearly and explicitly said by the Sergant, that the intentions are far from good. A typical day, involves gunning down civilians.

There is a lot of evidence, and the Sergant corroborates it, that they are systematically dehumanized and dumbed down.

You will find that even staunch Liberals like myself cant blame the soldiers for thier actions. The soldiers are only following orders. The soldiers are doing the job they signed up for. Where you disgust and anger should be directed towards is the leadership of this country that is asking these kids to do the things they are doing. Most of them are kids. 19,20 years old for the most part.

They are not children, Kid finger, that we the parents, are suppose to excuse for blunders. They are adults, capable of knowing right from wrong, and have a choice. This sergant had a choice too, and he opted out.

We have a choice too, and that is to withdraw absolute support for this war, which is nothing more than a genocide of an innocent people, men, women and children like our own family and friends.

dont know if you are old enough to remember Vietnam. If not, you shold do some research on it. The soldiers at that time were asked to do truly horrible things in the name of democracy.

I know some of what they did in Vietnam, and it is deplorable, and they instrumented it. They are accountable for their actions, because they have commited crimes.

All I am trying to say to everyone here, who has a conscience, is a decent human being who believes there should be peace in our society. That we should be able to sleep at night without worrying about terrorists. That you withdraw absolute support for this war. Not because this is my opinion, but because it is WRONG, morally, legally, spiritually.

Do not support any of it, and for gods sake, do not feel sorry for cold blooded murders who enjoy it. These are the same people who are going to be protecting you later from "domestic" terrorists. Really, does none of this unsettle you?

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Indigo, in theory you are partly correct. It IS wrong to commit murder on an unarmed man not threatening you, wrong morally. However, it is much more complicated than that. Once you are thrust into that situation, with orders from the President to carry out acts of war against a nation, you either follow orders or can be tried for disobeying. If your commanders TELL you to go in and shoot everything that moves, because the situation has deterioted to that point, you don't HAVE much of a choice. It is WAR.

It cannot be deemed unconstitutional, unfortunately, because that situation is still an ongoing debate. It is unclear whether the President can initiate acts of war such as this legally, and many lawyers will argue that he can, because he is, by definition of the constitution, in control of the armed forces. Presidents for years have used that legal loophole to initiate military action without the consent of congress, and with no formal declaration of war. They even turn a blind eye to the War Powers Act.

So what are you asking for Indigo? You want all the E-1's to turn around and shoot their superiors? These people trust that their commanders are doing the right thing. The commanders trust that the President is doing the right thing. Is the President doing the right thing?

I dont support the war, but I do support our sons and daughters who are fighting. This started with Bush, and that is where it will end. The Nazi comparison should have been made like this: Bush is akin to Hitler. Even the Nazis thought they were right. without Hitler, there would have been no Nazi party. If Bush were not elected president, we would not have seen these atrocities in Iraq. Once Hitler fell, the Nazi party crumbled. Once Bush falls, hopefully his supporting party will crumble as well so we never have another tyrannical president in office who will force our military to commit these war crimes.

The beauty of the US is that we regularly shed our leadership in the hopes of improving ourselves. We don�t always succeed (Dubya) but he too, will eventually be replaced.

Who are you kidding, yourself? Has it not occurred to you, that in the last two elections, there has been foul play? Has it also not occurred do you that a common man has never assumed a position of power, that it also neptotistic and based on blood lines or elite societies. Do you know a lot of the foundation for war on terrorism was laid under Reagan, who forged ties with dictatorships as well as instituted plans for martial law under an execute order of 84.

Do you know what one part of that order says: SEIZURE OF ALL CITIZENS

What has changed? We were preparing for war on Afghanistan and Iraq from early as Clinton. We still maintain relationships with dictatorships, like Pakistan. The war on terrorism itself was planned from a long time ago, and Sergant Jimy Massey exposes this in the interview.

As for the atrocities of US troops, it has been the same in every conflict they have partaken in. So what leadership has changed? All that appears to be changing is the costume.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
you can call Iraqi's terrorists, or even muslims terrorists. I should be able to call a Nazi a Nazi.

Only twits and idiots are refering to all muslims or all iraqis as terrorists. Similiary, only a twit or idiot would refer to an entire group of people who are not nazis as nazis. lets see where this goes.

Your army men are Nazi's. They are brutal, evil, wicked and sick psychopaths, that are slaughtering innocent men, women, children and eldery, in their hundreds, millions and thousands.

This is absolutely and completely untrue. The service men and women in the US, British, Polish and the rest of the nations involved in the Iraqi Occupation and the Nato mission in afghanistan are most certainly not nazis, not brutal evil wicked sick or the rest of it. Granted there have been some sick and twisted individuals, in particular around the prison abuse scandals, but the vast majority of soldiers of any force over there have not been behaving in any manner like this. And in case you didn't notice, 'millions' are greater than 'thousands' so listing it afterwards is silly, and claiming that millions have been brutally executed is preposterous.

I have taken it upon myself to fight for reason, for humanity, for sense, for the oppressed, and for those Iraqi's. [/quiote]
And what are ya going to do about? Bitch, moan and lie on an internet web forum? "You go girl"

As it seems to me, nobody else here, wants too. These topics are ignored, instead people, would rather show their hate for the "Iraqi terrorists" for daring to fight against oppression and evil.

And ripping off david perls head witha small knife was a way to fight against oppression? Lopping off ken bigely's head was an effort against oppression? An elderly woman charity worker is the evil oppressor?

Don't you have an integrity, shame?

Says someone who refers to all soldiers as nazis and apparently approves of the butchering of margaret hassan and other civlians as legitimate acts of resistance.

What kind of country have you become, where entire states are welcoming people who abuse, molest and kill innocent people, as heroes?
What abuser has been hailed as a hero? The troopers in general are struggling against an enemy that doesn't deign to identify itself, and prefers to hide inside of mosques and behind old women. Of course some mosques and old women are going to get killed in the process. THe soldiers over there are doing a good job, in spite of the egregious muck ups of some fowl stupid individuals.



How can anyone with conscience, with a family, who cherish their own well being and peace, actually turn an uncaring eye away from mass cold blooded murder?[/quote
What mass murder? Or are you refering to the rest of the world that worked to prevent the overthrow of a regime that used gasing, rape and mass murder as an institutional means of authority and control? The same world that gets together and refuses to called the systematic execution and destruction of ethnic darfurans 'genocide', merely becuase such language would compel them to act?

Are you goinng to anything about it?

Absolutely not, your conclusions are entirely incorrect and generally ludicrous.

Don't you learn from the past?

Sure, and those who don't struggle against enemies that are actively working to destroy you get destroyed. Isolationists wanted the US out of the first world war, and pacifists didn't want to get invovled in the bloody brutality that was world war II. People didn't listen to them until the enemy struck them on that infamous day, the anniversary of which so recently passed.

How is it for you, that pregnant women walking about, can be shot down under suspicion of concealing a bomb?

Perhaps they should be angry with the women who are smuggling bombs, the black widows who murdered school children in chechnya or the ambulances in palestine the smuggle bombs and murders across borders.

These are all facts, and anyone who challenges me on this, is setting themselves up for embarrassmant.

Says some reactionary who insists unthinkingly that all soldiers are nazis.

Did you not know that Hitler did exactly the same that is happening in your America today.

Hitler did nothing like what is going on in the US today and the constant harping that he did is suicidal ignorance. When a real dictator comes around for the politics of the US then people won't even realize it. When nationalists overtake Europe, probably on anti-war platforms themselves, then people can finally see the real danger.

What's happening in America? Are you so blind to see, it's EXACTLY the same?

Absolutely none of what you outlined has happened in the US. The WTC was not another reichstag, the Patriot Act is nothing like the enabling act, and, most luckily, the american people are reasonable and objective enough to not fall into the abstractist subjectivist thinking that the national socialists were based on.


A government building has been attacked, it's been blamed on terrorists, homeland security has been established, under marines to protect the people, and to use deadly force on anyone suspected of being a terrorist. Under these broad definitions, the marines are going around recklessly killing anyone and everyone.
What fantasy land exactly are you living in? Where are these bands of marauding recklessly murdering marines in america? What americans have been executed by the Dept. of Homeland Security? Yeesh, they found some stupid kid in afghanistan fighting against the US and all they did was put him in jail. The captured another stupid kid who was returning to the US to do surveillance work for a terrorist cell that was plotting to use radiological weapons and all they've done is detain him. What is with the hysteria?

then I am going to blacklist you as one of those who is beyond any hope at all, and wish you best of luck in being cannon fodder.

Feel free to put me on your ignore list, I've never really found much of what you say worthwhile in the first place. Your absence and withdrawl will hardly be missed by the board.

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by Indigo_Child


A solider has the right to disobey any inconstitutional, unlawful, or morally wrong orders.

This tells me you have never been in military service before. Yes, the law says you dont have to follow an unlawful order. Military law says you WILL follow ALL ordes given, wether you agree with them or not. When you are in the military, your not really a person anymore, your property. A number.

But you still have a mind of your own and a concience.

[edit on 8-12-2004 by instar]

As liberal and anti-war as I am, I've got to agree with the liberals here: this is the wrong way to go about things. And "Prisonplanet" is a notoriously unreliable site; the source there can tend to discredit the message.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Indigo, in theory you are partly correct. It IS wrong to commit murder on an unarmed man not threatening you, wrong morally. However, it is much more complicated than that.

My family's military and I was raised military and I agree: it's far more complicated than the picture you're painting.

Once you are thrust into that situation, with orders from the President to carry out acts of war against a nation, you either follow orders or can be tried for disobeying. If your commanders TELL you to go in and shoot everything that moves, because the situation has deterioted to that point, you don't HAVE much of a choice. It is WAR.

Add to that the concept that you're in danger and you've been indocrinated on how to behave.

NOW... I happen to think that not only is the war wrong, but the (nonexistant) training our soldiers get is also very poor. They are being taught to think of the Iraquis as people desperately needing to be "civilized" to American standards, that civilians are glad to see them there (not true), and that the resistance is a bunch of mad dogs (so any brutal behavior toward them is justified.)

And then they don't understand why the media seems to think they should be fighting by some sort of peculiar non-lethal "Marquis of Queensbury" rules.

It cannot be deemed unconstitutional, unfortunately, because that situation is still an ongoing debate. It is unclear whether the President can initiate acts of war such as this legally, and many lawyers will argue that he can, because he is, by definition of the constitution, in control of the armed forces. Presidents for years have used that legal loophole to initiate military action without the consent of congress, and with no formal declaration of war. They even turn a blind eye to the War Powers Act.

And there's where the blame falls.

The one person eager to rush in and take over Iraq was Bush. He was willing to commit troops (in spite of others' telling him that there were no WMDs and Saddam posed little threat), he was willing to commit resources (in spite of not finding the bigger threat -- Osama -- and in spite of being told he was spreading forces too thin.) He's still going around saying that things are jolly and working out even when the leaders of those countries we invaded are pointing out that the world is less safe and things are turning out very badly and our debt load is unbelievably huge.

So what are you asking for Indigo? You want all the E-1's to turn around and shoot their superiors? These people trust that their commanders are doing the right thing. The commanders trust that the President is doing the right thing. Is the President doing the right thing?

The best way is no war.

The problem is that Bush's stupidity has gotten us into a horiffic mess. We can't walk out right now because the horribly bad situation will get worse as all the warlords start vying for power (Bush, stupid stupid Bush, has no idea how the power structure there works.)

We are stuck, and the death toll is going to get far worse.

What's needed is a stable and strong leader. However, political ideologies run high there and the only one who COULD hold it together was a dictator.

Bush, the moron, thinks that it's all going to be solved with elections. He is ideologically blind, culturally ignorant, and egocentric. While he struggles to spin the results into something palitable for the United States, Osama and his crew (who are more able to do what they want now that our resources are tied up needlessly in Iraq) are on the loose.

And everything we do that irritates the people of the Middle East just fuels support for Osama.

So... propose something. To date, nobody's got a good solution and this is the time for a good solution. If you and the rest of the Indigo Children can form a coalition and present something rational and brilliant, I'm sure you'll get support from everywhere.

Oh... and it does no good to yell "Nazi" unless you can prove beyond a doubt that what's being followed is the Nazi ideals. I think you'll find other political models are closer to the truth than Nazi-ism.

Im easy Apology accepted

[edit on 12/8/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Indigo, in theory you are partly correct. It IS wrong to commit murder on an unarmed man not threatening you, wrong morally. However, it is much more complicated than that. Once you are thrust into that situation, with orders from the President to carry out acts of war against a nation, you either follow orders or can be tried for disobeying. If your commanders TELL you to go in and shoot everything that moves, because the situation has deterioted to that point, you don't HAVE much of a choice. It is WAR.

A cold blooded murder of an innocent person, will always be that, no matter where it is. However, this is not just a murder, this is a genocide Yes, they are following orders, and they have been thrusted into a war, and basically told everyone is the enemy, but no one is ever helpless in not comming genocide, you just don't do it. If you do it. You are accountable for it. This is recognized in international law.

Are you really telling me the Nazi's were just innocent little boys, misguided by the state?

It cannot be deemed unconstitutional, unfortunately, because that situation is still an ongoing debate. It is unclear whether the President can initiate acts of war such as this legally, and many lawyers will argue that he can, because he is, by definition of the constitution, in control of the armed forces. Presidents for years have used that legal loophole to initiate military action without the consent of congress, and with no formal declaration of war. They even turn a blind eye to the War Powers Act.

I don't care if they even legislate a law that makes murder fair game. It's a murder. A law is is not something written in stone, it is there to serve society and stabalise it, not to gun it down without abandon.

So what are you asking for Indigo? You want all the E-1's to turn around and shoot their superiors? These people trust that their commanders are doing the right thing. The commanders trust that the President is doing the right thing. Is the President doing the right thing?

I am not asking any of the soliders to do anything. They know what they are doing, they have chosen it for themselves. If I was told to go and murder some innocent child, or rape a woman, or else I'll be thrown out of the army, I would disobey. I am a human, not a savage beast. Are they?

So what do I want you to do. If you accept this is institutional. If you accept this is an illegal war. If you accept there is a genocide. To withdraw absolute support, and show that you are against this genocide. However, by defending the actions of thousands of cold blooded murders, you have never even met, you are passively supporting this war.

You don't have to feel sorry for them. You do not even have to hold them accountable. But, one thing is true, if you do not support this administration and/or it's genocide, then withdraw absolute support for it. As in another thread, this can be characterized as a Pyramid structure, where you are the bottom layer, supporting the troops, who are in turn supporting the administration, who are supporting the global agenda.

You actually have the power. Yes, you actually have the power, to weaken the administration you oppose, by withdrawing your part in the layer. If enough of you did that, the pyramid would collapse.

Can you do this? Do you want to end this genocide? Do you want to secure your future from the same killing machine?

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Wimps!
Straight and simple.
Don't like it, sue me.
You self-righteous people disgust me, literally.

All of you have "selecto-vision."
You claim and assert "genocide" with no real world meaning except what you read, see, and hear from sources that you will accept.
You can quote your ass off from Wikipedia all day long, if it suites your needs and agenda. You can provide one line of definition without fully comprehending that which you declare, assert, and alledge with such sureness.

Well, allow me to contest your intellectual rhetoric with some of my own.

2. WHAT IS GENOCIDE?

Genocide is foremost an international crime for which individuals, no matter how high in authority, may be indicted, tried, and punished by the International Criminal Court (ICC). According to Article 6 of the ICC Statute, This crime involves, "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Genocide:Meaning and Definition

The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. �Intentional� means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members � mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

The legal definition of genocide


Got a case of genocide against the US, take it to the International Court of Justice or the UN! Take action! Do something about it! Beware, for every moment you waste 'intellectually' proclaiming and proving your "case" here, more "genocide" is taking place.


seekerof

Okay, folks -- keep it civil.

Things are starting to get just a bit testy. Let's keep the namecalling down, okay? Address the points and leave off the kindergarten tactics.

On further consideration, and clearer thinking, I should not be so down on soldiers themselves , youth is gullible, malleable, and easily led, hence young soldiers. Also not all are so bloody minded to blindly follow mindless and evil orders. Rather its the administration who give those orders i should be down on. I still beleive in the case of attocities committed under orders that as individuals, soldiers with a shred of decency should defy those orders, and not fear the result. Then again, jail and a reputation as a coward or traitor is probably beyond most young folk to take in stride as the cost of alturism. Sad is it not.
Let me clarify, that Im not anti American, just anti us policy.
Ive read good points from both sides, but i beleive its not been said that the supporters of the war in Iraq, are not above compassion for iraqi civilians caught in the madness, and they beleive with all their hearts that the judgements of their Goverment are just and reasonable. Credit to them that do not support blindly and without beleif in their cause. This would indeed be a far greater evil.
IN the end we are all human and we make our judgements alone. Time judges all actions or lack of for better or worse.
My apology to those my views have angered/upset, peace to all of you.
p.s. My apologies for that hot headed remark Kidfinger, it was unfair of me, you didnt deserve that, sorry.

[edit on 8-12-2004 by instar]

killak420 says:

"Dude be mindful of what you say. They have certain laws in place in which they can arrest you for saying what you just said."

No, you are incorrect. Even a complete twit can insult Americans, falsely accuse the government of genocide, and call anyone who disagrees with her silly and naive views as being a "nazi", and in general make a complete fool of herself, and she can get away with it.

One of the good things about this country (and I agree that thare are a lot of bad things) is that we provide our residents here (even those completely devoid of any understanding of history) the right to say their piece.

The only recourse we have to such fatuosity is the permanent "ignore" option, which, upon reflection, seems like a great idea.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
killak420 says:

"Dude be mindful of what you say. They have certain laws in place in which they can arrest you for saying what you just said."

No, you are incorrect. Even a complete twit can insult Americans, falsely accuse the government of genocide, and call anyone who disagrees with her silly and naive views as being a "nazi", and in general make a complete fool of herself, and she can get away with it.

Ahem, WACO, Miami, Portland, Seattle?

Just for this instance, please read the following, and then reflect:

www.prisonplanet.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...

The only recourse we have to such fatuosity is the permanent "ignore" option, which, upon reflection, seems like a great idea.

Be my guest. I've got nothing to lose. You have the truth to lose. For someone who says that I am "falsley" accusing our wonderful government of genocide, you are basically showing you are not reading any of it. It's called Jignoism. Ignorance is only bliss, till the truth catches up.

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]