First hint of 'life after death' in biggest ever scientific study

a reply to: GetHyped

LOL, this is just silly nonsense.

The null hypothesis is flawed and this is why the Researcher has continued doing research in these areas even after that statement.

This is because there's no reason why people having NDE's would be looking for penguins or pictures on a shelf. This is why I asked you if you ever read an NDE.

People who have these experiences are focused on their bodies and what's going on around them and their families. So it makes no sense to say I will put a picture or penguin on a shelf and if the person is having an NDE they will read some random numbers or look for a penguin.

The null hypothesis has to relate to the actual NDE. There's no reason, based on NDE accounts, why a person having an NDE would look for a picture, random numbers or a penguin on a shelf.

a reply to: neoholographic

Great, so now we've entered the pseudoscientific world of unfalsifiability. The experiment failed, your defense is absurd, feel free to keep sucking up bad science when it suits your beliefs. I'm not even going to bother replying to you anymore.

originally posted by: OneManArmy
I know full well what sleep paralysis is.
But tell me why the random hallucinations of an 8 year old boy would be of his, unknown to him, dead aunt, waving goodbye of all things.

And how do you know that you didn't just coincidentally have a dream about your aunt around the time she died? Like I said sleep paralysis comes with hallucinations; and to me, when you say that you were experiencing sleep paralysis, that immediately puts doubt on your claims that what you saw was real.

ETA: If you believe that the things you see during sleep paralysis is real, then you must also believe that these demons of old are real as well.

The hallucination wasnt terrifying. It was strange, I had much more terrifying episodes in that house. Mostly due to recurring dreams and the fact that the house was haunted. How do I know the house was haunted?
Because I stopped having the bad dreams and weird experiences when we left it.

Like I said in the first post I responded to you, it probably wasn't terrifying because you recognized the person in the dream. As for haunted houses, most hauntings can be attributed to the house being old and probably drafty or plagued by infrasound coupled with the night time being cooler and windier than the daytime. There is also the possibility of electronic interference from old electronics or old wiring in the house.

Well I have only ever had one or two "bad" dreams ever since I left that house. I used to tell my mum of an old man that used to come sit on my bed and tell me stories at night, I was 3 yrs old.
The house was built on an old graveyard from the plague it later turned out, once I was at secondary school and we learned about the history of the area.
I lived less than 2 miles from where the famous "Green Street Poltergeist" events occurred.

Cool story. I'm not saying that you didn't experience a real haunting. I just doubt the veracity of ghosts. They may well exist, but you should explore the logical and sensible explanations before jumping to the unnatural and supernatural explanations.

a reply to: neoholographic

Except all these people say they experience "hyper"consciousness during their NDE's, so it reasons that their focus would be able to be expanded to more than just their bodies. Does their peripheral vision not work in "hyper"consciousness as well? You sound like you are just making excuses and rationalizing now that you've been shown that your study was false. That's not science at work, that is confirmation bias at work.

originally posted by: TheCable
...to me it still seems far more likely that all these experiences are just part of how our brain operates under certain conditions.

Jumping to conclusions and saying that this sensation of floating around or seeing white light *must* mean that our mind somehow survives the demise of our physical bodies and there's "this other side" is on the wishful thinking side. We understand so little about this phenomenon even after, as you put it "decades of people having these NDE experiences" yet somehow the believers jump to conclusion that it's not just in our brain which to me is a common sense explanation just like dreams.

This hits the nail on the head for me. It seems to be quite a leap of faith (literally) to say that this experiment proved anything about life after death.

We know so little about the human brain that it seems so much more likely that these NDEs are simply the brain doing what it can to fill in missing chunks of memory after a traumatic experience in order to help make sense of that experience. We have no way of knowing if during those times of undetectable brain function that there is STILL something going on inside the brain that we are not able to detect - and/or - some portions of those memories are created after the patient wakes up.

To me taking a jump from "materialistic" worldview to "we have an immortal soul" takes a lot. It would be cool if it was true, I guess, ...

Yes. it would be reassuring to know that there is a life after death. However, my wishing and hoping for a life after death does not necessarily make it real.

double post

a reply to: GetHyped

No we haven't. We have entered the world of blind nonsense.

For some reason, you think your silly post will invalidate years of research. Either you're a troll or you're extremely delusional.

This is why I keep asking you. BASED ON NDE'S WHY WOULD THEY LOOK FOR A PICTURE OR A PENGUIN WHEN THEY'RE DYING????

This is why I keep asking you have you ever read an NDE experience. Most of them are focused on what's going on around their bodies and with their family.

This is like coming up with a theory that says Sarah likes going to the Rite Aid on Maple Street and then coming up with a Null that says, we should find receipts on Sarah from the Rite Aid on Harvard in order to falsify the theory that she likes to go to the Rite Aid on Maple Street.

APPLES AND ORANGES!

You can't show me, based on NDE's, that NDE's should be looking for penguins and pictures on a shelf when they're dying when the NDE experiences point to the contrary.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Again, have you ever read an NDE?

In many of these cases, the person having the experience becomes more aware of things going on around their bodies and then they can become instantly aware of where and what some family members are saying. Where's your evidence that this "hyper consciousness" as you call it should see a random penguin or picture on the wall when they're dying?

Why should these random pictures and this stuffed penguin be important to someone that's dying? Again I ask, have you ever read an NDE???

originally posted by: surrealist
I personally know people who don't believe in the afterlife and have professed to having out-of-body experiences.



Yes he didn't actually die, he was pronounced "clinically dead", I'm just using their scientific terms. So he was alive, can anyone answer my question how he recounted the actual events from the corner of the room at a distance from his body?

No, no one can--at least not scientifically, and that's where the claims in this study fail to back up its assertion that this is a scientific study. It's more like a scientific polling of people claiming something.

I don't believe in an afterlife as prescribed in religion(s), but I certainly don't claim to know what happens, either. I do know that most near-death experiences can be explained scientifically by what happens in the brain due to lack of oxygenated blood flow, but out-of-body experiences both ellude scientific explanation (at this time) and intrigue the hell out of me.

It would not at all surprise me that life already is eternal as energy...energy doesn't evaporate, it just changes form. Once that energy is done fueling the human body, who knows what happens to it? No one, really, but it'd be damn cool to figure it out.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: OneManArmy

Just an fyi, sleep paralysis isn't evidence of ghost encounters. It is likely you were just still dreaming at the same time you entered your sleep paralysis state. In fact sleep paralysis is a type of lucid dreaming. Note the connotation of "dreaming" on the end of that phrase.

Sleep Paralysis

Sleep paralysis is a phenomenon in which a person, either falling asleep or awakening, temporarily experiences an inability to move, speak or react. It is a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep characterized by complete muscle atonia (muscle weakness). It is often accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (such as an intruder in the room) to which one is unable to react due to paralysis, and physical experiences (such as strong current running through the upper body). One theory is that it results from disrupted REM sleep, which normally induces complete muscle atonia to prevent the sleeper from acting out his or her dreams. Sleep paralysis has been linked to disorders such as narcolepsy, migraines, anxiety disorders, and obstructive sleep apnea; however, it can also occur in isolation.[1][2]

Note the point about hallucinations. You may not have experienced a terrifying hallucination because it was someone you recognized, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a hallucination.

I know full well what sleep paralysis is.
But tell me why the random hallucinations of an 8 year old boy would be of his, unknown to him, dead aunt, waving goodbye of all things.

The hallucination wasnt terrifying. It was strange, I had much more terrifying episodes in that house. Mostly due to recurring dreams and the fact that the house was haunted. How do I know the house was haunted?
Because I stopped having the bad dreams and weird experiences when we left it.
Well I have only ever had one or two "bad" dreams ever since I left that house. I used to tell my mum of an old man that used to come sit on my bed and tell me stories at night, I was 3 yrs old.
The house was built on an old graveyard from the plague it later turned out, once I was at secondary school and we learned about the history of the area.
I lived less than 2 miles from where the famous "Green Street Poltergeist" events occurred.

That's the thing, there have been many cases where the people living in the "haunted house" were convinced it was haunted, but when someone else came in to investigate, nothing happened. Our mind plays tricks on us.
If you were convinced it was haunted and THAT'S the reason why you were having nightmares, then leaving the house would help get rid of the issue whether it was haunted or not.

Personally I believe that if someone else came into live in that house and didn't hear the history of the place, they wouldn't sense anything. However, all it takes if for someone to mention something dreadful like "oh, have you heard that 2 miles from this place, there were those "Green Street Poltergeist" events going on a while back?" to plant that seed of fear into one's mind and depending on the character of the person, their mind might create these experiences.

It's similar to how I've read some stories of people who had some weird experiences with some kind of ghosts or "demons" and once they said Jesus' name the "demons" disappeared. I'm sure it did work, but I don't think it has anything to do with Jesus. If someone was convinced that shouting out, I don't know, Zeus's or Batman's name would make these demons disappear, it would work just as well. It's like placebo effect, if you convince yourself it works, it might work.

I can sometimes feel the "presence" of something in my room late at night after reading some stories about ghosts as well. I know it's irrational, but it still *feels* real.

And about your aunt situation. As far as I understood, you found out that she died 3 weeks after the fact (I guess because they hid the fact from you?), but then later realized that you had the vision of her the same night that she died?

That would certainly be an unlikely coincidence. However, as far as dreams go, there's a lot of stuff we don't remember. If you dream of someone every night for half a year and then suddenly something happens to them, it's easy to say that "I just dreamt of them and something happened, therefore dreams were trying to tell me something!". Maybe normally you don't remember that you dream about that person or multiple other people almost every night in one form or another, but after something happens to them, you remember that specific dream and single it out.

Again, it's very hard to say these things without sounding antagonistic towards you because no matter how I put it kind of sounds like I'm accusing you of being crazy or whatever.

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: TheCable
...to me it still seems far more likely that all these experiences are just part of how our brain operates under certain conditions.

Jumping to conclusions and saying that this sensation of floating around or seeing white light *must* mean that our mind somehow survives the demise of our physical bodies and there's "this other side" is on the wishful thinking side. We understand so little about this phenomenon even after, as you put it "decades of people having these NDE experiences" yet somehow the believers jump to conclusion that it's not just in our brain which to me is a common sense explanation just like dreams.

This hits the nail on the head for me. It seems to be quite a leap of faith (literally) to say that this experiment proved anything about life after death.

We know so little about the human brain that it seems so much more likely that these NDEs are simply the brain doing what it can to fill in missing chunks of memory after a traumatic experience in order to help make sense of that experience. We have no way of knowing if during those times of undetectable brain function that there is STILL something going on inside the brain that we are not able to detect - and/or - some portions of those memories are created after the patient wakes up.

To me taking a jump from "materialistic" worldview to "we have an immortal soul" takes a lot. It would be cool if it was true, I guess, ...

Yes. it would be reassuring to know that there is a life after death. However, my wishing and hoping for a life after death does not necessarily make it real.

This whole study doesnt ever once claim to have proved life after death.

It merely hints at it.

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: TheCable
...to me it still seems far more likely that all these experiences are just part of how our brain operates under certain conditions.

Jumping to conclusions and saying that this sensation of floating around or seeing white light *must* mean that our mind somehow survives the demise of our physical bodies and there's "this other side" is on the wishful thinking side. We understand so little about this phenomenon even after, as you put it "decades of people having these NDE experiences" yet somehow the believers jump to conclusion that it's not just in our brain which to me is a common sense explanation just like dreams.

This hits the nail on the head for me. It seems to be quite a leap of faith (literally) to say that this experiment proved anything about life after death.

We know so little about the human brain that it seems so much more likely that these NDEs are simply the brain doing what it can to fill in missing chunks of memory after a traumatic experience in order to help make sense of that experience. We have no way of knowing if during those times of undetectable brain function that there is STILL something going on inside the brain that we are not able to detect - and/or - some portions of those memories are created after the patient wakes up.

To me taking a jump from "materialistic" worldview to "we have an immortal soul" takes a lot. It would be cool if it was true, I guess, ...

Yes. it would be reassuring to know that there is a life after death. However, my wishing and hoping for a life after death does not necessarily make it real.

This whole study doesnt ever once claim to have proved life after death.

It merely hints at it.

I wrote "[hasn't] proved anything about life after death"...

...meaning it hasn't provided any proof about things related to life after death, such as the idea that consciousness can exist separate from the body.

Poppycock.

Reeks of religious over tones.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: TheCable

You said:

If they put a picture of a, let's say, penguin on top of a shelf and patients' "souls" truly floated in the room they SHOULD be able to recall a penguin. If none of them do, the logical conclusion is that it's all in the head, just like our dreams.

Why should they be able to recall a penguin you put on the top shelf?

First off, in many cases, things happening in the room and outside the room are described in detail. These descriptions usually pertain to what family members are doing and also what's going on with their bodies. They're dying and not worrying about penguins on the ceiling.

So the only way you can reach this ILLOGICAL CONCLUSION is if you're just looking for any excuse not to look at these findings logically.

Exactly. Im dying is what is on my mind and my main concern would be my body what doctors are doing to me and what my loved ones are thinking. Not some random picture placed somewhere. My concern would be far and away removed from proving to others what is happening to me by some picture especially when I think I am dying and not coming back.


The sceptical materialists have to be willing to use the science of the subject involved where the nder thoughts and intentions have to be taken into account as well. Unless they want to propose that thoughts and intentions are not allowed to be part of scientic study and dont exist in the material world.

originally posted by: TheCable

If they put a picture of a, let's say, penguin on top of a shelf and patients' "souls" truly floated in the room they SHOULD be able to recall a penguin. If none of them do, the logical conclusion is that it's all in the head, just like our dreams.

Using your logic, and given a list of the places you have been, I should be able to go to those places and look for out of the way and interesting pictures and items and if ask you to describe them. If you can't recall everything I saw and wrote down, you were never there based on that logic.

bunk thread

they have tested out of body experience on numerous occasions by placing items on shelves above the patient that were not previously known nor could be identified when resuscitated, anyone can imagine themselves sitting across the room.

When you die your matter continues on in a different state.

My mom had the same experience as this guy one time before I was born. She recounted what the doctors said and everything.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Again, have you ever read an NDE?

Why yes I have. They are fascinating experiences that I feel need to be better understood since doing so could illuminate more about the workings of the brain.

In many of these cases, the person having the experience becomes more aware of things going on around their bodies and then they can become instantly aware of where and what some family members are saying. Where's your evidence that this "hyper consciousness" as you call it should see a random penguin or picture on the wall when they're dying?

I don't call it that, that's what the reports YOU just asked me I had read have said. I'm just curious why you'd think someone's peripheral vision wouldn't work. The stories talk about people being able to see things in the room, therefore it reasons they should still have peripheral vision. Or does it not work that way? Wait you don't know either, yet you are making assumptions about what these people are experiencing.

Why should these random pictures and this stuffed penguin be important to someone that's dying? Again I ask, have you ever read an NDE???

Why wouldn't they? If you are supposedly "hyper"aware as the experiencers say, then it reasons that they'd notice and pay attention to even the tiniest detail. Increasing awareness means you take in MORE information, not less. If someone is looking down from the ceiling or the corner of the room, these things would be out of place since we assume that there shouldn't be anything there. So you think that people not noticing ANY of these things EVER isn't a significant detail? That's denialism and confirmation bias talking.

originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: TheCable

If they put a picture of a, let's say, penguin on top of a shelf and patients' "souls" truly floated in the room they SHOULD be able to recall a penguin. If none of them do, the logical conclusion is that it's all in the head, just like our dreams.

Using your logic, and given a list of the places you have been, I should be able to go to those places and look for out of the way and interesting pictures and items and if ask you to describe them. If you can't recall everything I saw and wrote down, you were never there based on that logic.

I understand the argument that someone who is in that kind of situation isn't going to care about a lot of things other than their own well-being. But the reports often talk about "hyper consciousness" and they can easily describe all the other things which they presumably already knew were there.

As Krazysh0t pointed out, do you lose your peripheral vision when you're in that kind of state? It's certainly hard to judge how likely it would be for someone to notice a random picture as I don't know about its placement and how contrasting it is to its surroundings which I do agree is very important.

If this picture blends in with the environment, then yeah, it might be hard for someone in that kind of state to notice it.
However, If the picture was, let's say, a bright red square with a black dot in the middle and it was placed in a grey background, I'd say that its quite likely that someone would notice it.

My point isn't that one has to remember *everything*. I just think it's unlikely that not a SINGLE person out of 130 cases noticed anything weird or out of place. Not one. I'd like to think that if something was out of place, like a completely random picture of a penguin in an operating room (it's kind of funny that I used it as a random example and now we're stuck with it haha) was visible to me, I might be able to recall it. Yet no one did. There's even a higher chance to remember it if it was purposefully made to stick out in the environment the picture is placed.

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: OneManArmy

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: TheCable
...to me it still seems far more likely that all these experiences are just part of how our brain operates under certain conditions.

Jumping to conclusions and saying that this sensation of floating around or seeing white light *must* mean that our mind somehow survives the demise of our physical bodies and there's "this other side" is on the wishful thinking side. We understand so little about this phenomenon even after, as you put it "decades of people having these NDE experiences" yet somehow the believers jump to conclusion that it's not just in our brain which to me is a common sense explanation just like dreams.

This hits the nail on the head for me. It seems to be quite a leap of faith (literally) to say that this experiment proved anything about life after death.

We know so little about the human brain that it seems so much more likely that these NDEs are simply the brain doing what it can to fill in missing chunks of memory after a traumatic experience in order to help make sense of that experience. We have no way of knowing if during those times of undetectable brain function that there is STILL something going on inside the brain that we are not able to detect - and/or - some portions of those memories are created after the patient wakes up.

To me taking a jump from "materialistic" worldview to "we have an immortal soul" takes a lot. It would be cool if it was true, I guess, ...

Yes. it would be reassuring to know that there is a life after death. However, my wishing and hoping for a life after death does not necessarily make it real.

This whole study doesnt ever once claim to have proved life after death.

It merely hints at it.

I wrote "[hasn't] proved anything about life after death"...

...meaning it hasn't provided any proof about things related to life after death, such as the idea that consciousness can exist separate from the body.

But thats exactly what it does show, consciousness can exist separate from the brain. For anywhere between 3 mins to up to 2hrs. That doesnt necessarily prove anything, but hints towards life after death. The testimony of the "patients" suggest that consciousness can and does leave the body and can exist separate from it. As long as the body hasnt broken down beyond a certain point then that consciousness can return to the body. That is the doctors own words.
And then the radio station was filled with callers recounting exactly the same sort of stories.
Between people making assumptions with zero experience, and those that have lived it themselves, I will always go with those who have the personal experience. Especially when the stories recounted all sound pretty much the same.

Hallucinations wouldnt all be the same. Everybody's subconscious is different, so logically, each experience would be totally different, but there are too many similarities for it to be random hallucinations.