The Concept of Sin is Silly

a reply to: intrptr

I think you sort of have it. You know it because it's already there. If it is there, but you must reveal it by experience, then how is it that you see it? What gives you the opportunity to see what was already there?

a reply to: AlephBet

What gives you the opportunity to see what was already there?

Wisdom, imo

Imo, thats a gift from outside, like a lamp on your path. That lamp is held by someone else in the analogy. It is held for you so you can see.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: AlephBet

What gives you the opportunity to see what was already there?

Wisdom, imo

Imo, thats a gift from outside, like a lamp on your path. That lamp is held by someone else in the analogy. It is held for you so you can see.

Correct, but the wisdom is light. What does light do to objects? Why is Sin a necessity?

Here is a quote from the video below: "Aristotle says that one of the key things that leads to tragedy is what he called the hamartia (error of judgments). Tragedy is really about real people making bad decisions that lead to terrible results. Real people often are making bad decisions for good reasons. So, tragedy is about the idea that we live in a flawed world full of suffering and injustice and misery.

It also shows us that those things are caused by our actions, and are therefore remedial by our actions."

Given that the pallet we brush with has the chance for a bad painting, is this a reason to throw out the paint and canvas? You see the painting with the light. You paint the painting with the brush.

a reply to: Nechash

So what would you do with a man who rapes your little daughter so badly she tears apart and dies from internal injuries? (This happens frequently to little girls who are raped, massive internal injuries)
What would you do with someone who murders your mother in cold blood ,for sport, in front of you? (That happened to a friend of mine)
What would you do with someone who robs you and bashes your head so badly you are left disabled for life?
(so that you can no longer work but have to be cared for day and night locked in a wheelchair)
What would you do with a man who beheads your wife because she doesn't have the same religious beliefs he does?

What kind of rehab? What kind of compassionate treatment? Would you set them free with a "don't do it again"?, would you let them go home with no consequences? With only "let's make you an individual" and help you find yourself?


By the way, where is Ralphy, the OP
Looks like he abandoned his own thread
Probably started it as a shocker to get reactions
and then fled.

a reply to: Ralphy

Of course the concept of sin is ridiculous, yet we still do it. When we know the truth sets us free, we still lie. Sin is a debt that we cant pay-off because it is part of our nature. Sure, you can make up for a lie, and even ask for forgiveness, but does that mean that you will stop lying? Didnt think so. When Jesus died for our sins, He didnt just die for our personal sins, but He also died for the very nature that produces sin. Jesus truely paid the debt that we couldnt afford.

Satan created sin when he acted against his Creator. God simply gave him the choice. The same choice was given to us to prove a
point to Satan; environment does not override personal freedom.

So as you said, the concept of sin is ridiculous, and that is why the workings of man will alway amount to beurocratic hipocracy.

originally posted by: Ralphy
The whole concept of sin through religion should provoke one to question the validity of such a claim from such an demiurge or supreme god.

If sin is considered a debt then isn't it morally wrong to create a debt that cannot be paid?
If sin is guilt, why should someone feel guilty the rest of their life?

When one thinks about sin, it does not make sense on any level. People have thoughts and act on those thoughts, that is it. Right and wrong is human interpretation. Humans are ignorant, we all are, that is just a fact of life. Why should someone who is ignorant have to face judgement based on decision made from ignorance? I'm not encouraging people to make bad decisions but in the end, things we consider wrong are only thought that way because of human perspective.

Of course we don't prefer murder or rape but from a godly perspective, an objective perspective non of that matters. Why would it? Especially if the body is just a temporary vehicle as most religions teach. People make poor decisions because they lack the resources to make good decisions that benefit others. This isn't to say its easy to accept others based on their behavior and actions but on a godly level, it makes no sense to cast judgment on ignorance.

If you have ever made a mistake in your life, take responsibility and just realize you don't have to live with that guilt the rest of your life.

Its only human to live and learn, to make mistakes and survive, its a byproduct of ignorance that we all have to deal with. You are forgiven if you forgive yourself. If you want to make things right, make them right with your friends, family, and neighbors.

There is only one thing I have to say about this. If I raped your mother and slit her throat after I'm done with her and feel no guilt whatsoever, then that would make me an absolute psychopath on all accounts. Psychopaths are much like demons, they are devious, only concerned for themselves, will manipulate everyone else around them to get what they want no matter the cost, they are good actors, and they feel no guilt or empathy whatsoever. So essentially, the type of society you are asking for is a society full of demon infested psychos. Be careful what you are asking for in your heart, because God knows your heart and he may just give you exactly what you are asking for in this thread.

From my point of view we are all having some things we need to fix. A little karma here a little karma there that we have to take responsibility for when we notice we have it. All debts can be repaid in time so that a soul can feel debt free. Taking one step in the right direction now is one step you do not have to take later.

And the reasons/justifications for why people do something do not matter.

It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I don't know, but I think murdering them swiftly is more humane than the gradual meddlesome dehumanization of making them crawl on their belly until they are thankful for the chains you've designed for them. Personally, I think neither execution nor slavery is an ideal end. If you hate them so much for what they've done, you've already stripped them of their personhood in your own mind. If you are monstrous enough yourself to deny someone of their basic right to existence as a free being then maybe you should strap them and yourself into an electric chair and just end it all for the both of you. Isn't that the ultimate conclusion of your moral system? You will never undo what they've done. Torturing them and transforming them into your good little slave will never bring back the light they've snuffed out of the world. You are asking to achieve the impossible, which is itself a form of insanity.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
So what would you do with a man who rapes your little daughter so badly she tears apart and dies from internal injuries?

This reminds me of a line from one of my favorite films:

Would you really want the Universe to be run by someone who wasn't all about a perfect system of justice?

(@ 28:50 min.)

Jesus: That's exactly, how it is with God. He isn't interested in people performing well enough for Him. They can't possibly do that anyway. God created people to have a relationship with Him, so they can enjoy His love.

Nikki: So why don't they?

Jesus: Because man has rejected God, and severed the relationship. God's whole "program" (if you wanna call it that)is all that putting it back together.

Jesus: Who would you say is the best person in the world?

Nikki: Excuse me?

Jesus: Morally speaking: Who is the best person you can think of?

Nikki: Somebody like... Mother Teresa, I guess.

Jesus: Alright. We'll say, this is Mother Teresa, Now, who is the worst?

Nikki: Gosh... Osama Bin Laden, Jeffrey Dahmer... Hitler...

Nikki: Are you saying, that to God Mother Teresa and Hitler are essentially the same?

Jesus: Oh, no, no. Hitler was horribly evil, Mother Teresa did many good things! What I am saying, is: Mother Teresa for all her goodness was no closer to bridging the gap to God than Hitler was. Both of them - based on their own merits - were still a long away from being with God.

Nikki: So that's why you said, that keeping the Ten commandments won't get us into the Heaven?

Jesus: Right. Because no one could ever keep them well enough. Because God's standard is perfection.

Nikki: Boy, that's reassuring...

Jesus: And you wouldn't want it any other way.

Nikki: What that's supposed to mean?

Jesus: Would you really want the Universe to be run by someone who wasn't all about a perfect system of justice? A perfect brand of holiness?

Nikki: Why not? Perfect holiness is the last thing I need to deal with!

Jesus: So you would want a Universe where crime goes unpunished? Where someone who harms Sarah gets off scot free? Where somebody like Bin Laden isn't held accountable for 9/11?

Jesus: Not everyone is as bad as Bin Laden! No, but everyone is a rebel against God in their own way.

Nikki: It just doesn't seem fair, that God sees everyone in the same way, I mean... Some people are just worse than others!

Jesus: And God will handle them all accordingly!

Jesus: But that's just the whole point, Nikki: On what basis would you stand before a perfect God and say, that you've been good enough?

Nikki: But I thought, God is forgiving... With this perfect justice thing you are saying that God can't forgive anyone.

Jesus: God is forgiving more than anything else and God wants to forgive people, so they can return to Him. But... God's desire to forgive can't override His perfect justice! People have to pay a penalty for breaking God's laws. And the penalty is: death.

(Transcript is here BTW)

"The Perfect Stranger" is based on the novel, 'Dinner With a Perfect Stranger' by David Gregory, 'THE PERFECT STRANGER' tells the story of Nikki, a troubled attorney who one day receives a mysterious dinner invitation from a man claiming to be Jesus of Nazareth. Throughout their evening of conversation, arguments and spirited debate, Nikki learns things she never knew about life, the universe, and most importantly, herself. (Sequel to this film is here BTW)

a reply to: Ralphy

You're qualifying sin.

If the concept of sin was truly silly, then murder and rape would be acceptable expressions of "mistakes".

a reply to: beezzer

It must then stand to reason that some sin is worse than other and that some sin isn't sin at all.

originally posted by: BasementWarriorKryptonite
a reply to: beezzer

It must then stand to reason that some sin is worse than other and that some sin isn't sin at all.

Stealing is stealing.

Now is stealing an apple off of a cart the same as stealing 10 million dollars from a bank?

Stealing is still stealing.

Sin is still sin.

a reply to: beezzer

Yes, but stealing is different to killing a person and killing a person is different to jealousy.

Sin might be sin, but there are degrees of sin.

a reply to: beezzer

I think the problem is that people conflate crime with separation from God. Crime is a human problem and different crimes have different impacts upon society. You should not get the same penalty for stealing an apple as you get for stealing $10 million. Separation from God is another matter entirely, and that is up to you to work out. In that matter, I think the above example provided by Murgatroid is very insightful.

If we are to believe the bible, Saul, a mass murderer was transformed in an instant by God and used to build upon the foundation Jesus established, transforming his "elementary gospel" into what would become the Catholic Church; however, many good atheists are going to hell, so obviously a good atheist is further away from God than Adolf Hitler is if God chooses to elect Adolf Hitler to serve his purposes. Make sense? This is the monotheist mindset: your virtues are meaningless, god's will is everything, that which is good is that which serves him, that which is evil is that which he chooses to reject.

This is an insane world view, just to offer my opinion. No virtuous god worthy of our consideration would operate off of a model of whimsy. If he is the embodiment of justice then he will create and produce a reasonable system of justice. Personally, I am becoming aware of the fact that maybe I know nothing about God or whatever you want to call this extradimensional force and maybe I am totally responding to lies, swatting at phantasms. I really hope this is the case. I would never be prejudiced against a being simply for having more natural power or ability than I have. If he is virtuous and he is worthy of being in a relationship with, then I'd like to know him. Otherwise, this whole system is mindless and we really do need to reinvent the wheel.

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: beezzer

I think the problem is that people conflate crime with separation from God. Crime is a human problem and different crimes have different impacts upon society. You should not get the same penalty for stealing an apple as you get for stealing $10 million. Separation from God is another matter entirely, and that is up to you to work out. In that matter, I think the above example provided by Murgatroid is very insightful.

I think we may agree here.

If we are to believe the bible, Saul, a mass murderer was transformed in an instant by God and used to build upon the foundation Jesus established, transforming his "elementary gospel" into what would become the Catholic Church; however, many good atheists are going to hell, so obviously a good atheist is further away from God than Adolf Hitler is if God chooses to elect Adolf Hitler to serve his purposes. Make sense? This is the monotheist mindset: your virtues are meaningless, god's will is everything, that which is good is that which serves him, that which is evil is that which he chooses to reject.

God's Will is unknown. It's not so much about virtue as it is about faith. Evil also serves God by showing the incorrect path.

But now we're just talking opinions. Yours. Mine.

This is an insane world view, just to offer my opinion. No virtuous god worthy of our consideration would operate off of a model of whimsy. If he is the embodiment of justice then he will create and produce a reasonable system of justice. Personally, I am becoming aware of the fact that maybe I know nothing about God or whatever you want to call this extradimensional force and maybe I am totally responding to lies, swatting at phantasms. I really hope this is the case. I would never be prejudiced against a being simply for having more natural power or ability than I have. If he is virtuous and he is worthy of being in a relationship with, then I'd like to know him. Otherwise, this whole system is mindless and we really do need to reinvent the wheel.

I'll put my faith in God. Man's shown himself to be unworthy of that much faith.

Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: grandmakdw

I don't know, but I think murdering them swiftly is more humane than the gradual meddlesome dehumanization of making them crawl on their belly until they are thankful for the chains you've designed for them. Personally, I think neither execution nor slavery is an ideal end. If you hate them so much for what they've done, you've already stripped them of their personhood in your own mind. If you are monstrous enough yourself to deny someone of their basic right to existence as a free being then maybe you should strap them and yourself into an electric chair and just end it all for the both of you. Isn't that the ultimate conclusion of your moral system? You will never undo what they've done. Torturing them and transforming them into your good little slave will never bring back the light they've snuffed out of the world. You are asking to achieve the impossible, which is itself a form of insanity.

Not what I said at all.

I asked the question, what would you do in those circumstances? You did not answer at all.

What would you do that you consider best for the person who does each of those specific crimes?

You can give flowery talk all the time about what is wrong with a system, but unless you can say how to make it right in your eyes, your talk is worthless air. Tell us all, what would be the right thing to do in the circumstances I listed. Please list them each and tell us how you would inspire the non-victim to not repeat the offense and to be a better person.

I realize from what you are saying you think the victim is already dead or traumatized and that can not be undone so it appears you think no redress or recompense for the victim is needed. So what of the non-victim in each of these specific instances.

An I don't know is not an acceptable answer

because if you condemn the current system or intensive rehab

then if you can't give an answer there is no answer in your mind.

So the only alternative according to everything you have said in this thread is to

say "no no don't do it again" and let them go and be individuals,

because you refuse to come up with a good alternative.

Instead spout worthless platitudes about what is wrong and nothing about how to make it better.

You criticisms would be valid if you had valid solutions, to complain about something just to complain without a proposed solution is what I would expect of a teenager or very young adult who has not experienced the world.

So what would you do with a man who rapes your little daughter so badly she tears apart and dies from internal injuries?
(This happens frequently to little girls who are raped, massive internal injuries)

What would you do with someone who murders your mother in cold blood ,for sport, in front of you? (That happened to a friend of mine) What would you do with someone who robs you and bashes your head so badly you are left disabled for life? (so that you can no longer work but have to be cared for day and night locked in a wheelchair) What would you do with a man who beheads your wife because she doesn't have the same religious beliefs he does?

Still wondering? Are OP's who abandon threads and never once chime in allowed to start threads again?[

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Still wondering? Are OP's who abandon threads and never once chime in allowed to start threads again?[

Simmer Down.... Simmer Down.

I have not abandoned this thread, I just haven't mastered typing in my sleep.

My point being is that the concept of sin, a failure to meet a standard(typically associated with a standard that came from a god) does not make sense. I never once said that crime was acceptable, I'm talking about sin from the perspective of a objective third party(god). I never said criminals shouldn't be punished(taught a meaningful lesson, not just put into a prison to socialize, get out and do the same things again).

How can a god judge and punish someone who has no knowledge of how to control their anger, pain, regret, etc.? A person doesn't choose to be ignorant, we are all born that way. People don't just choose to commit crime randomly, there is a reason for it.

From a human perspective, we tend to careless as to the reasons why, we just want justice(although one could say the relief from pain). Although even in perfect justice, it doesn't change anything, the victim still has to forgive the aggressor no matter what to move on.

To sum it up, a godly perspective should be above ours, more understanding. To judge ignorance is ignorant.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I don't think a sick person can begin to get better until they are offered a cure for their illness. Nothing we do in this world can cure, only treat. The only cure that I know of is a deep level of introspection, a basic level of self-honesty, a desire to change and daily efforts to change your internal narrative and world-view until these changes can become more habitual or inherent in you. All of this comes from within, not from the exterior world.

You could I guess surround them with the type of stimuli that encourages that type of introspection. You could do certain thought exercises that might increase their powers of empathy. You could teach them how to reject false ideas and how to craft their own. You could teach them how to deal with the discomforts of desire and how to utilize their desire to create positive outcomes instead of negative ones. But they must want to change.

I guess realistically, prisons and half-way houses will be necessary to protect the innocent from one who has no desire to change, but ultimately you can't just throw someone there with the attitude that they deserve a lifetime of penitence. These are our brothers and sisters. They lash out at the world because the world itself is inherently sick. How can you blame a child for mimicking the reality it is presented? How can you blame a player for choosing to win a dehumanizing game by any means necessary?

Also, you seem to like things to occur in your own way. This is a trait that might cause a great deal of personal frustration as your perception of control is only an illusion. You have the freedom to choose your own narrative in this life and a freedom to behave however you wish, but how reality unfolds is more of a shared phenomenon. If you are unable to tolerate things occurring that leave you feeling disempowered, you're going to have a bad time on this planet. Trust that things will be ok. Even if they won't be, the fact that you have trust gives you an internal peace which is more beneficial to you than any other emotion. Meddling in other people's lives and transforming them into broken puppets that simply respond to your commands is not a humanistic model. Adapting people to persist within a sick society is not virtuous.

The concept of sin was created by religion. The concept of wrong was created by the humans. In nature the concept of wrong, or bad, or no, does not exist. Our brains can not process negatives. The brain does not know what is wrong or good, just act by instincts. Example: If an animal is hungry it will eat, even if that implies that it has to kill. In its mind it doesn't matter that it is killing it matters that is hungry.
That why kids usually don't follow instructions. You tell a kid to not do something, it will going to do it anyway, because his brain is acting by instinct. As we grow up then we start to apply the concept of wrong or negatives (those concept appear according our levels of consciousness).

guides.wikinut.com... rstand-Negatives/q-qvv29w/
www.sciencedaily.com...

Sin is a nature.All of mankind (and creation) are "born" with this nature.Sin in Hebrew (chata) means missing or falling short .In Greek it means missing of falling short of the mark of (of maturity).When someone "sins" they are acting according to their nature of immaturity by "their" character..i.e...whatever their immaturity is.

The meaning of "sin" is completely different than the"religious" meaning.Religion perceives the acts of sin by a standard of their religious morals and ethics then judges the "good and evil" by that "knowledge" through their Belief System religion".It is a tree with rotten fruit that does not sustain life.

From those fruits the doctrines of "sin" are born.Many believe mankind(Adam) was born perfect(mature) without sin.Nothing could be further from the truth because it is mans(and creations) nature to be immature.That is neither good nor evil it is the "nature" of the material physic realm.

The religious carnal mind (satan..the adversary) perverts this "nature" into a doctrine of religion and creates a sacrosanct system of religious judgement.They then project that doctrine into the image of "their God" and make their God the cosmic policeman, judge and jury who's whole concern is about the morals and ethics of man.

If there is a creator God(because there definitely is not a God(s) of ANY religion) they are COMPLETELY aware of mans condition because they created them that way.The creating of religious doctrines does NOTHING to solve this supposed dilemma but only serves to exacerbate it.The ultimate perversion of the doctrine of "sin" is the eternal punishment of hell.For the many it is the vindication of their "sin" while condemning others.Fortunately and for the "condemned and unfortunately for them they are very,very wrong.

Immaturity is the condition of mankind and all of creation because it is not fully formed.No amount of "religion" or philosophy or mystic transcendence or humanist social consciousness is ever going to change that.It is the NATURE of the material/physical realm (the universe) because it(and everything in it) is in a state of chaos and entropy.

Life in the material realm is like a conception in the womb where anything that is being conceived is not aware of their true condition nor can they do ANYTHING about it just as they did NOTHING to cause it.The only thing anyone can do is live their very limited infinitesimal life according to their nature and character.

If there is a creator God they are very, very capable of causing the desired result and the fact would be NOTHING of that creation could know what that purpose and even more so the process and method.Any guess of those details is futile and vain speculation.It can only be known that this "life" is a conception and "sin" is a temporary state of being that serves a purpose.

The concept of "religious sin" is not silly..it is diabolical and causes nothing but dissension and false condemnation until the person who dwells on "sin" and judges others by it becomes sin.