The Concept of Sin is Silly

The whole concept of sin through religion should provoke one to question the validity of such a claim from such an demiurge or supreme god.

If sin is considered a debt then isn't it morally wrong to create a debt that cannot be paid?
If sin is guilt, why should someone feel guilty the rest of their life?

When one thinks about sin, it does not make sense on any level. People have thoughts and act on those thoughts, that is it. Right and wrong is human interpretation. Humans are ignorant, we all are, that is just a fact of life. Why should someone who is ignorant have to face judgement based on decision made from ignorance? I'm not encouraging people to make bad decisions but in the end, things we consider wrong are only thought that way because of human perspective.

Of course we don't prefer murder or rape but from a godly perspective, an objective perspective non of that matters. Why would it? Especially if the body is just a temporary vehicle as most religions teach. People make poor decisions because they lack the resources to make good decisions that benefit others. This isn't to say its easy to accept others based on their behavior and actions but on a godly level, it makes no sense to cast judgment on ignorance.

If you have ever made a mistake in your life, take responsibility and just realize you don't have to live with that guilt the rest of your life.

Its only human to live and learn, to make mistakes and survive, its a byproduct of ignorance that we all have to deal with. You are forgiven if you forgive yourself. If you want to make things right, make them right with your friends, family, and neighbors.

a reply to: Ralphy

I am reading a modern Arthurian novel that focuses on the life of Morgan La Fey, and it is inspiring. Fictitiously, she talks about how the priests of the world hold reality into existence, but how Avalon is just right there if we only know how to access it. I don't think the magic has gone out of this world yet. In fact, I think it is just beginning to awaken in some of us, and I have a tremendous hope for the future: all that is dead shall rise, all that is putrid shall be incinerated and all that is living shall be magnified towards unlimited radiance.

a reply to: Nechash
What's the name and author of that book?

In the past nobles would buy off their sin. That should tell you everything right there.

I thought the same with the whole heaven concept. How can we have freewill in heaven if everything is one sided against evil? no balance at all. I mean if there is paintings in heaven are they all just blank white canvasses?

a reply to: Iamthatbish

Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer, it is as old as me, but still interesting to me.

So are you saying that you don't prefer murder.

But, if someone commits murder that we should take into consideration that maybe they just made a wrong choice?

So if someone murders your, let's say mother, in front of you, that is not wrong (i.e. sin), because the person just made a wrong choice and we should understand where the person is coming from.

So if a man robs you at gunpoint, hits you on the head and you land in the hospital with permanent brain damage, that is not wrong (i.e. sin) because the person may have had circumstances we know not of that compelled them to rob you.

If you buy a new iphone, set it on a table while you are eating and someone walks buy, picks it up and pockets it, that is not wrong (i.e. sin) because they may have really wanted the latest iphone but didn't have enough money to buy it.

Let's say (male or female) you are raped from behind at knife point. That is not wrong (i.e. sin) because the person may have been overwhelmed by testosterone and unable to control their sexual urges.

Sin, is another term for things that are wrong to do.

Guilt is separate from sin. Now the person that robs you, steals your iphone, leaves you brain damaged, and raped you and kills your mother, doesn't have to feel guilt at all and I would still consider what they did a sin (ie wrong, morally wrong). But you advocate no consequences for sin, no debt, no debt to society, no jail time, no recompense, no guilt over doing these things?

Your relativistic thinking, if carried out in the real world, would lead to a dystopia I certainly would not want to inhabit.

I think guilt can be a good thing, it keeps people from killing, raping, stealing, molesting small children, murdering for fun, etc. It let's people know that certain things are just plain morally wrong (all religion or religious values aside).

But if you prefer a world where there is no guilt and nothing is a sin, think carefully, we are on the way to getting what you want aren't we?

A totally judgement free, debt free (consequence free), guilt free, society is also one where everyone is free to steal, kill, injure, assault and torture others, etc. with no consequences.

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: Ralphy

I am reading a modern Arthurian novel that focuses on the life of Morgan La Fey, and it is inspiring. Fictitiously, she talks about how the priests of the world hold reality into existence, but how Avalon is just right there if we only know how to access it. I don't think the magic has gone out of this world yet. In fact, I think it is just beginning to awaken in some of us, and I have a tremendous hope for the future: all that is dead shall rise, all that is putrid shall be incinerated and all that is living shall be magnified towards unlimited radiance.

light is meaningless without shadow to compare it to.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Yes, I can see the wisdom in that. No need to rush into embracing a philosophy of antithesis, but things are surely way off balance as they exist.

a reply to: Ralphy

Actually Sin is a concept that is very mixed up and in the true judeo/christian tradition it is actually failing, to sin is to fail, to fail by doing wrong or bad when you should have done right or good, to fail to keep the law's that direct an orderly and good society, also to live in a way that make's you fail is sin.

It is not silly at all take away the concept of sin and you take away the concept of law, what society could exist without law's.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I think it is impossible for most people to think objectively about justice and morality. They think sympathizing with the perpetrator of violent crime is a disservice to the victim. They think once a person has crossed a certain line they have earned for themselves all kinds of horrendous tortures. I do not believe any of that. I think you can create a win/win system of justice that leads everyone towards recovery, and I think that maintaining a hysterical system of counter-reaction in order to maintain some sense of moral prudence is irrational.

Forgiveness is the cure the victim really needs, realizing they are safe and ending the programming that drives in them a feeling of insecurity is what they need. Reintegration into society is what a criminal needs. Ending the programming that drives them to a feelings of dissatisfaction and isolation is probably a good first step into rectifying their sociopathy. Personally, I think we can create a more mutualistic, more loving society with one another that truly elevates all of us so we are more creative, more self-actualized and more fulfilled at the end of the day than we ever have been before.

Ultimately, if we do not attempt to make progress as a civilization and provide cures to our problems instead of constantly playing catch up to clean up the messes we are generating, what is the real purpose of continuing forward? If we keep doing the same soul-crushing things in perpetuity, has not our very existence become the living embodiment of insanity? Doing that, I think, forfeits our right to continued existence. We should justify ourselves. What are we doing here? If we can't answer that question shamelessly, then what is the point really?

a reply to: grandmakdw

I think guilt can be a good thing, it keeps people from killing, raping, stealing, molesting small children, murdering for fun, etc. It let's people know that certain things are just plain morally wrong (all religion or religious values aside).

A true psychopath wouldn't feel guilt or even care about sin, at times they feel they are doing God's work.

Sin is a standard, not a law and like most standards, they are just guidelines for ethical behavior and like most guidelines, they are just rules for acceptable moral interaction within a preset society based on social norms and like most rules for acceptable moral interaction within a preset society based on social norms, they at times get broken.

You know whats REALLY silly?

Believing lies...

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ~ 1 Corinthians 2:14

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. ~ 2 Corinthians 4:3

“For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe” ~ 1 Corinthians 1:21

a reply to: Nechash

I think rehab is important.

I also think that until rehab is completed the person who hurt another needs to be isolated from other potential victims to prevent them from victimizing others.

I actually ran a rehab program for 2 years. It was very effective. But it was effective because the perpetrators had to literally pay for their rehab, financially as well as meeting stringent requirements that kept innocent people safe. Recidivism was low, but we were quite tough on the people who had to come to a realization that what they did hurt others and that they had to pay for what they had done to the victim, because the victim was a real person who was emotionally as well as physically injured in some way.

Just giving sympathy to the "criminal" is not productive in getting them to realize how they hurt others.

a reply to: Ralphy

It's definitely a strange world we live in. Some people are born into this world who are completely wired differently, sometimes mentally, sexually or physically. We all are born into families that influence us differently morally. Some are raised learning social norms and religious beliefs, where others are raised in an atmosphere of deviance and criminality.

Is a mentally ill person who doesn't understand his or her deviant behavior actually in control of their thoughts? In some parts of the world, their traditions or beliefs are considered sinful and criminal from western standards and beliefs.

Countries train their people to wage war and kill people for land, beliefs and protection. Depending upon which side you're on, war isn't considered sinful. In fact soldiers pray to a God who most religions say wrote a commandment that specifically states "I shall not kill" yet ask for safety from him before entering into battle to kill.

Op, you raise some valid points.

a reply to: Ralphy

The whole concept of sin through religion should provoke one to question the validity of such a claim from such an demiurge or supreme god.

If sin is considered a debt then isn't it morally wrong to create a debt that cannot be paid?
If sin is guilt, why should someone feel guilty the rest of their life?

Sin is compared to leaven in the Bible. Leaven is what makes bread rise (yeast). Unleavened bread makes a flat bread. What is bread made of? Seed. In Hebrew, the word ear is seed, but also the opening for the seed. How does a seed grow in soil? Water. How do you kneed bread? By beating and rolling it on a table. For the ear to open, it is crushed. To make bread, the seed is crushed, then mixed with water. Roll it out. Beat it. Add Leaven. Put it in the over, then let it bake. It rises. Once it rises, you then slice it. Try not to be burnt toast. That's the real challenge if you are baker.

How is a pearl made? An irritation enters the muscle, then it is rolled around. The cycles of rolling then make the layers of the pearl.

How do sheep gain wool? They circle the wilderness, then the shepherd sheers the wool. He then washes it white as snow, then weaves a robe form the material.

What is the robe? It's your body.

Volution is a word that means to roll. Involution of your seed is the process to be baptized. Why roll seed? To make bread. Why be baptized in water, only to be beaten and rolled? To rise to new life out of the oven.

Why does an irritation enter the muscle? Why does the wife enjoy wearing the pearls? Why are pearls compared to working for wisdom?

When a person wears clothes, why do they like variety of threads and patterns? Where do these designs come from? Why did God allow sin? You don't have sin apart from law, or restriction. Why? It keeps the others safe from those who break it. Sin allows the others to rise. Everyone is invited into the oven, but water keeps the bread from burning. Baptism is for repentance of the breaking of law. Law is a guardian.

Galatians 3 (this passage is titled Children of God)

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Seed is your promise. You'll develop it by bearing fruit, which is where seed is. Bearing fruit means abiding in the one law of love, which denies the restriction's necessity. You'll learn one way or another. What kind of robe do you want to wear in the future? You make the robe.

a reply to: Ralphy

Its only human to live and learn, to make mistakes and survive, its a byproduct of ignorance that we all have to deal with. You are forgiven if you forgive yourself. If you want to make things right, make them right with your friends, family, and neighbors.

You have a super thread here. I will join you in the rant. My last post was based on a great deal of understanding about the process God follows, but I also have the same complaint you have. People are ignorant of the truth. Not only ignorant, but lacking any way to really see clearly. Just like Adam before the fall, he was innocent and devoid of any knowledge of good and evil. He had no way to see past this choice he was making to see the ramifications.

This is another good point to make. He was innocent because of his ignorance. Roll that around awhile and you might see the reason we lack what God will eventually impart freely. By impart, I mean he will write it on our hearts. When you read truth, you know it is true. Why?

Really. It's my question to you? Why do you know it when you read it? Why can you see a flower growing in a trash dump and see a divine design among the waste products of technology? What differentiates the truth from the worn out products? Those products can't be born again. The flower will even eventually turn into a field of beauty if good soil is piled on top.

a reply to: Ralphy

When one thinks about sin, it does not make sense on any level. People have thoughts and act on those thoughts, that is it.

Thats narcissism, or sociopathy.

You should meet my family. They only do for them. The only way you can interact with them is to… do for them.

If you think about that and combine it with Christianity you realize this is how that religion is set up.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first-- You can serve me now or wait on me in Heaven.

I'll pray for you-- that way I don't actually have to do anything.

Am I my brothers keeper? No.

Narrow is the path to heaven and wide is the path to destruction (my favorite). We can bomb them because after all, they are all going to hell anyway.

Pearls before Swine. Its okay to earn enormous sums and keep it all to myself.

a reply to: grandmakdw

My only fear for rehab is that it is actually attempting to reproduce selfless drones that will just assume their diminished spot in society without any protestations. We should be producing fountainheads and until we can do that consistently, I'd be leery of any institution which can assume complete control over an individual and correct them via making them pay for their individuality.

a reply to: AlephBet

Really. It's my question to you? Why do you know it when you read it?

Its impossible to know whats written is true or not. The "truth" or 'knowing the truth" was more meant to mean how do you know what to do in the moment. How do you tell what is right in the moment?

You know the truth in any situation because you can see the lie. You now one by the other. Theres this lamp at your feet that shows you the way. Leave words and writing to the lawyers (liars). Just know whats right in your heart. Not going down the wrong path eventually leads to the right one.

Silly, but look how well it's worked so far in causing people to fear their every natural thought and action.