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NEWS: No Christmas in America?

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posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
What's happening is an increased awareness that it really is unconstitutional and immoral to use tax dollars and public facilities to promote a particular religion.



You're not paying attention or you're just making this up as you go. Examples of a decided bias against Christmas have been cited, so that much is out the window.

The other thing is that neither the First Amendment nor any other Article of the Constitution prohibits religious displays on public property or with public funds. Read it for yourself:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

It is the establishment of a religion and the prohibition of its exercise that is prohibited and public displays or celebrations or decorations or anything that has been traditionally done meets those criteria. To say otherwise is a falsehood.


[edit on 2005/12/9 by GradyPhilpott]




posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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Isnt wonderful how our media makes non-issues major news events, while the ignore all the real happenings on this globe.

Im not christian, I hang with my family at christmas eat some food, do the gift thing, help out the economy. I dont care and probably 90% of others like me that this is also Christ's supposed b-day. I'f any of us lived before christ we would still celebrating this time of year anyways. This phenomenon will work itself out. Why dont christians complain about their holiday being hijacked by ruthless corporations and Santa Claus?

This story is like that shark attack story a few summers ago. For the year there weren't any more attacks than any other yet the media was telling us the waters where deadly. Im sure a few attack christmas every year, however this year the media decided to make a big deal out of it.

Well got to go Boycott some French Goods
Oops the media tricked me there too!



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 04:42 PM
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There are soldiers dying overseas to fight and proclaim Freedom and Democracy... and for what ?? So that people in the "Land of the Free" are forbidden to sing Christmas Carols, say "Christmas Trees" or " Merry Christmas".

The so called Land of the Free, as become the Land of Policaly Correct even when its stupid.

Only Christmas is beeing refuted and slammed as an Offense. I dont see anyone complaining about Hannukah or Kuanza...Once again for a lack of better things to do and worry about The Nation as decided to slam Christians... in Christmas... ROLF... what a joke...The Hipocrisy Fair!



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 05:31 PM
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To Christians, Christ IS the Spirit of the season, the spirit of good will to all. That is what Christians embrace when they celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ.

It wasn’t like this until 2-3 years ago. Then none of this was a concern and everybody was happy until these intolerant anti-Christian factions started taking aim at the Christian holiday of Christmas. Slowly at first starting with nibbles and now whole mouthful bites. The whole putrid affair has started to eat itself into our traditional way of celebrating the birth of Christ, which represents the very foundation of Christianity. It is an outright unabashed bigoted demonstration of religious discrimination. And it needs to be stopped, killed dead in its tracks. And this can only be done of people speak out against this transgression and bring awareness to the hypocrisy and gravity of the problem least soon there will be no Christ in Christmas.

From the Washington Post:

“The December holiday season used to be simple — when Americans could call it Christmas without offending anyone. A 2000 Gallup poll found that 96 percent of Americans celebrate Christmas but that such festivities have become more problematic in recent years.
The "December dilemma" over how much religious meaning can be allowed in public acknowledgement of the holiday has turned into an all-out legal battle that pits baby Jesus against an army of elves, reindeer and singing Christmas trees.
Misconceptions about the "separation of church and state" complicate the issue, says a nonprofit legal organization that is fighting to keep the Christ in Christmas.”

Washington Post Article



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by BostonBill99
You can say all you want about the Repuiblicans being in an uproar. But it won't make a hill of beans in comparison to the Pagan outcry of "I am offended."


Damn...those who are in uproar.

I guess it is better than them attacking Christians, burning down churchs and instigating a genocide on the people of the land. Glad those nice, lovely, Christians didn't do that for over 1000 years.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
You're not paying attention or you're just making this up as you go. Examples of a decided bias against Christmas have been cited, so that much is out the window.


No, your not paying attention, you're simply trying to invent what you want. Just because Macy's chooses not to promote Christ is hardly some sort of conspiracy. Freedom of religion includes the right for individuals and businesses to refrain from it or to embrace it as they choose. Most of the other examples cited are cases of government refraining from pushing the Christian agenda. That's proper.


Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The other thing is that neither the First Amendment nor any other Article of the Constitution prohibits religious displays on public property or with public funds. Read it for yourself:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."


To promote one religion in particular certainly trespasses on the establishment clause (as has been ruled on numerous times). The free excercise of religion includes the freedom not to excercise religion - which means no law can be established in regard to religion one way or another. No public funding or facility exists without backing from law. While it's true that the first Ammendment only addresses Congress, the 14th Amendment expands basic rights to apply to the states as well.


Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
It is the establishment of a religion and the prohibition of its exercise that is prohibited and public displays or celebrations or decorations or anything that has been traditionally done meets those criteria. To say otherwise is a falsehood.


The question of course, is what does it mean to establish or prohibit the free exercise of religion? The answer is pretty fricken simple. If a law uses tax money, public facilities, or public anything else to promote or restrict someone's religious practices, it is unconstitutional. Since the SCOTUS has agreed with my perspective in this regard on numerous occasions, I really could care less about your position. Thank the Christian Coalition for pissing on your parade and go pray in private.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 06:22 AM
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Some good news for a change: more retailers have changed their stand and have decided that using the "Merry Christmas" advertising slogan will bring them more profits and satisfy the American majority which are Christians and put themselves in a better light. Duh...go figure!

The Alliance Defense Fund, an organization comprised of some 800 attorneys nationwide want you to know:

"As in years past, ADF's goal this season is to inform, educate, and help protect the rights of the 96% of Americans who celebrate Christmas regarding their rights," Sears explained.

"We want to dispel the myths about religious expression at Christmastime that have prompted wrongful acts of government censorship of religious speech," Sears said. "Merry Christmas. It's okay to say it."

The purpose of ADF's Christmas Project is to clear up misconceptions about seasonal religious expression on public property:

The U.S. Supreme Court has never ruled that public schools must ban the singing of religious Christmas carols or prohibit the distribution of candy canes or Christmas cards.

School officials may refer to a school break in December as "Christmas Vacation" or as a holiday without offending the Constitution.

School officials do not violate the Constitution by closing on religious holidays such as Christmas and Good Friday.

No court has ever held that celebrating Thanksgiving and Christmas as religious holidays requires recognition of all other religious holidays.

The "Three Reindeer Rule" used by the courts requires a municipality to place a sufficient number of secular objects in close enough proximity to the Christmas item (such as a crèche) to render the overall display sufficiently secular. Although the overall display must not convey a message endorsing a particular religion's view, Christmas displays are not banned as some people believe. Simply put, the courts ask, "Is the municipality celebrating the holiday or promoting religion?"

The Alliance Defense Fund works year-round to preserve and protect our religious liberties, including the right to...

...sing Christmas carols at school
...pass out candy canes to classmates
...call it "Christmas vacation"
...sponsor a nativity scene on public property
...say "Merry Christmas"

ADF wants all Americans to know the Truth-that they have the freedom to celebrate Christmas publicly, joyfully, and without fear-for generations to come! We are launching our annual national Christmas Project(tm) to spread the message, "Merry Christmas. It's okay to say it."

Merry Christmas!

ADF

Can you say "Merry Christmas"?



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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I have yet to hear /anyone/ complain about Merry Christmas being used. Not a single agnostic, atheist, pagan, muslim, jew that I know. No one /cares/!

If there are businesses that are trying to, out of some over zealous attempt at non-offense, avoid offending people, that's a far cry from christians being pursecuted.

If anything, certain segments are using this as an excuse to 'fight back' and garner support and sympathy and are turning this into some big deal, when - it's simply NOT. Get over it.

And besides, Christmas has been at least in part, if not wholely secular for a long time now for most people.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by alternateheaven

boycotting Macy's, which has removed "Merry Christmas" signs from its department stores


Wow, are people so anal that a private organization can't make its own decisions if they dont mesh with the public? Jeeze, they should be able to put up or not put up whatever they want within reason, its not like the have to cater to one group or another, unless they really want their money.


People have the right to "vote with their wallets" for or against any private organization they like or don't like. It's part of a thing called freedom of choice. You and a lot of people keep forgetting that exercising your freedoms isn't guaranteed to be free. Sometimes there will be a cost. In this case, Macy's is free to display what they want, but they must understand that there might be the cost of lost (or gained and would you or anyone else complain then?) business because of it.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
People have the right to "vote with their wallets" for or against any private organization they like or don't like. It's part of a thing called freedom of choice. You and a lot of people keep forgetting that exercising your freedoms isn't guaranteed to be free. Sometimes there will be a cost. In this case, Macy's is free to display what they want, but they must understand that there might be the cost of lost (or gained and would you or anyone else complain then?) business because of it.



...or maybe they were listening to what the Pope has said?

It is about time Christmas is exposed for what it is and people begin to stop celebrating something, which in reality has little to do with Jesus and his birth and more to do with Roman festivles and consumerism.

It is a sad day when this is what Christianity is all about.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
screw the athiests and the other scrooges that want to ruin the meaning of christmas...

I'd like to have a game of christmas darts on their heads. Perhaps that will get the pc bug out of em... God, how pathetic...


ps: If everybody wants to participate in the FU game, i'd recommend going to the dollar store where they sell Merry Christmas banners for a dollar...
They have some other good ones too...

Just to send a nice message to all these bahumbug aholes that they will not ruin christmas because they have a pc bug stuck up their ass and have a beef with a man of whom they don't respect....

I say the respect starts at home... If you can't respect yourself how can you respect others?? Just something my mom taught me as a kid.





[edit on 8-12-2004 by TrueLies]


Hey, back up there a sec buddy. Look at what your saying. And you wonder why we have a problem with you people. And what's so friggin wrong with saying happy holidays instead? Does it really hurt you guy's that much to hear HAPPY HOLIDAYS?!

Happy Holidays which include all the holidays of all religion's n such between thanksgiving/new year's. How dare you attack non god believer's because store's and school's are saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS to EVERYONE and not just YOUR religion.

Get a damn life you people!



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Quest_es:


ADF wants all Americans to know the Truth-that they have the freedom to celebrate Christmas publicly, joyfully, and without fear-for generations to come! We are launching our annual national Christmas Project(tm) to spread the message, "Merry Christmas. It's okay to say it."


... Right, what's wrong tho is the way christian's acted toward's store's for saying happy holiday's to encompass a more broader scope of other holiday's between thanksgiving/new year's, including those of other religion's. No, instead of looking at the broader view of the harmless phrase "Happy Holidays", christians decided this was an attack against they're faith like little children. It look's like a me me me problem. HAS to be about christian's ONLY. Screw other holiday's/religion's.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by centurion1211
People have the right to "vote with their wallets" for or against any private organization they like or don't like. It's part of a thing called freedom of choice. You and a lot of people keep forgetting that exercising your freedoms isn't guaranteed to be free. Sometimes there will be a cost. In this case, Macy's is free to display what they want, but they must understand that there might be the cost of lost (or gained and would you or anyone else complain then?) business because of it.



...or maybe they were listening to what the Pope has said?

It is about time Christmas is exposed for what it is and people begin to stop celebrating something, which in reality has little to do with Jesus and his birth and more to do with Roman festivles and consumerism.

It is a sad day when this is what Christianity is all about.



Actually, I believe that goes back to Egyptian times and celebrating the Winter Solstis. Christ wasn't born until March, but your all bright people and I'm sure you have figured that out. I lack an understanding of what is going on in this Country as far as the Holidays go. When exactaly did everyone become so obsessed with what the person next to them is doing. Its quite pathetic if you ask me. Who cares if you celebrate Christmas, Hanukah, Kawanza or nothing at all? If I want to put a Santa in my front yard I should be albe to with fear of him being lynched in my tree. If I want to protest Christmas and have a bloody Santa in my front yard, then I should also be able to. This Country is not about everyone being the same. Our ancestors came here so we had the "freedom" to be different. If I want to celebrate Christmas purly for the commerical aspect, who are you to tell me otherwise. Christmas is about giving, sharing, kindness and that sense of nostalgia that one gets at this time of year. Personally I believe these are things that we should practice all year long. Santa Clause repersents Saint Nicholas, a man who was truly good and gave all that he had to the less fortunate. Christmas is about being a good person and doing for others.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by Quest_es
To Christians, Christ IS the Spirit of the season, the spirit of good will to all. That is what Christians embrace when they celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ.

It wasn’t like this until 2-3 years ago. Then none of this was a concern and everybody was happy until these intolerant anti-Christian factions started taking aim at the Christian holiday of Christmas. Slowly at first starting with nibbles and now whole mouthful bites. The whole putrid affair has started to eat itself into our traditional way of celebrating the birth of Christ, which represents the very foundation of Christianity. It is an outright unabashed bigoted demonstration of religious discrimination. And it needs to be stopped, killed dead in its tracks. And this can only be done of people speak out against this transgression and bring awareness to the hypocrisy and gravity of the problem least soon there will be no Christ in Christmas.

From the Washington Post:

“The December holiday season used to be simple — when Americans could call it Christmas without offending anyone. A 2000 Gallup poll found that 96 percent of Americans celebrate Christmas but that such festivities have become more problematic in recent years.
The "December dilemma" over how much religious meaning can be allowed in public acknowledgement of the holiday has turned into an all-out legal battle that pits baby Jesus against an army of elves, reindeer and singing Christmas trees.
Misconceptions about the "separation of church and state" complicate the issue, says a nonprofit legal organization that is fighting to keep the Christ in Christmas.”

Washington Post Article


[sarcasm]Yeah, darn those Godless, liberal Puritans![/sarcasm]

I for one am completely fed up with this nonsense.


There are real problems in this world, such as childhood poverty. According to the World Health Organization 640 million children do not have adequate shelter; 500 million children have no access to sanitation; 400 million children do not have access to safe water; 270 million children have no access to health care services; 140 million children have never been to school.

Or starvation: 852 million people across the world are hungry. Every day, more than 16,000 children die from hunger - one child every five seconds.

When one child dies every 5 seconds, complaining about what someone says to you while you are shopping in one of the wealthiest nations in the world is just absurd. When the world has real life and death problems, creating religious strife is shameful.

When people say "Happy Holidays" they are wishing you well regardless of what holiday you are celebrating. They aren't saying it to be "Politically Correct" but rather so they can include as many people as possible. I personally don't mind when someone wishes me "Merry Christmas" even though I am not Christian, because I know that they mean well. I don't understand why people can't look at "Happy Holidays" the same way.

Are we so spoiled and egocentric in this country that we can't take someone wishing us well without being offended?




posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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To Christians, Christ IS the Spirit of the season, the spirit of good will to all. That is what Christians embrace when they celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ.


See, that right there is the me me me complex again


What about non christian's? Athiest's use santa for xmas, not christ. Other religion's use w.e they use this time of year. This is why we were gunna use HAPPY HOLIDAYS! But no... you jackass's had to go and complain and say ME ME ME like a bunch of babies acting like everyone was attacking you! There is NOTHING wrong with happy holiday's!



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 09:29 PM
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I think this "banning Christmas" nonsense is mostly bunk.

To my ears, it's just more of the religious right falsely claiming they're "persecuted" because they are less able to use the machinery of government to force their beliefs on everyone else.

I can't drive around here without seeing Christmas decorations everywhere, public or private land alike. Not that I particularly object, but I simply don't see where all the hysteria is coming from.

As for me, I am agnostic. However I have no problem celebrating Christmas, it's a nice excuse to get together and do nice things for my friends and family. For me it's a secular holiday.

Not that I mind celebrating Jesus's birthday either (even though it probably wasn't really December 25th). Though I am not religious, he does seem to have been a person that said a number of sensible things about ethics and justice and simple human kindness and got brutally murdered for his troubles. And I suppose that's certainly worth being reminded of once a year.




[edit on 12/22/05 by xmotex]



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Odium

I guess it is better than them attacking Christians, burning down churchs and instigating a genocide on the people of the land. Glad those nice, lovely, Christians didn't do that for over 1000 years.


and you think pagans never did?.....the pagans were the opressors of many religions for many thousands of years, dont be so foolish to say pagans never opressed or destroyed other cultures or religions, they are just as guilty if not more than non-pagans.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by namehere]



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 10:12 PM
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Merry Christmas everybody!



God bless.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 04:01 PM
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quote: Originally posted by e-nonymous

See, that right there is the me me me complex again

What about non christian's? Athiest's use santa for xmas, not christ. Other religion's use w.e they use this time of year. This is why we were gunna use HAPPY HOLIDAYS! But no... you jackass's had to go and complain and say ME ME ME like a bunch of babies acting like everyone was attacking you!



Can you say: "CHRISTmas"

Don't know about your calendar but my calendar says Dec. 21 is the start of winter. Dec. 24 it says it's Christmas Eve. Dec. 25 it says it's Christmas Day. Dec. 26 is Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and Boxing Day. Dec. 31 is New Year's Eve. Dec. 25 is always Christmas Day. Columbus Day is always on Oct. 12. And wouldn’t you know, Valentine is always Feb. 14th. And what do we celebrate on CHRISTmas Day (do we need a clue)? That’s right, the birth of Christ. And that children is why it needs to remain CHRISTmas. Just so as that Lincoln’s birthday isn’t interchanged with Washington’s birthday or Martin Luther King’s.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 04:21 PM
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This is bull# Its not like I'm a huge christmas fan(in fact I'm jewish) but you can't go about changing merry christmas to happy holidays. If people want to have a banner saying merry christmas in there store or at a city festival or something then they should be able to do that. If you cant stand things like this then move to wherever your religion suicide bombs people and maybe things will be better maybe you'll get killed, I dont care! (sorry to all of the muslims I offended there) Also these people are forgeting that christianity has a fairly large majority over other religions in the US




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