Do we owe France an apology?

I'm not voting, you know why I'm not voting?

Because the moron who started the poll failed to put in an option that allowed us to vote for the truth, that France was, is and will always be WRONG.

Because I can not vote and maintain the fact that France was wrong, I shall not vote, this thread is disgusting.

Originally posted by FLNELKO
Your biggest problem TC! Sorry but "your" government uses the media. It's a wonderful tool. It's just too bad you can't see it! A toast to ignorance/apathy!

-sigh-

I'm getting tired of this whole spooky media thing.

If anything, after watching today's FCC fiasco, the media controls the government.


Don't confuse a savvy government manipulating what is released to the media as "media control". The "media" corporations are in existing to attempt to make profits, not control the masses.

And for Thomas... I think you've jump a little too far into "this is not the country that was founded" scenario, but at least you're jumping in the right direction.

People... why do you think public schools have slowly transition from teaching you how to learn to teaching you how to memorize. If you know how to learn, you might discover how you've been hoodwinked... if you only memorize the bite-size pabulum that is spoon fed to you, you'll be all the person they want you to be.

And the war... as many know, I was reluctantly in favor of military action. Now, with no WMD on the horizon (which is the lead story, or close to it, lately on network news each night... so much for media control), I'm ready for a call of "what did the President know and when did he know it."


[Edited on 3-6-2003 by William]

I resent the term hoodwinked, it's "detriments such as we who built this bloody empire!" (Good movie lol).

Either way, those who founded the country made it well, but now the citizens have been misled, and besige the same great foundation that built this country. It's the masses who are enslaving themselves with immorality, and ignorance.

Originally posted by TheWanderer
I resent the term hoodwinked

That's too bad... though it's true.

However, it is true that "we" have no one to blame but ourselves for the situation we find ourselves in.

No, William, I haven't jumped too far at all.

I see it from a constitutional issue as well as a conspiratorial one.

My position is one that can be easily explained through the law books and what is known of things such as Jeckyll Island. Facts are facts, even if they are ignored.

It was a moot point, totally. The other indication that it is a moot point is some brain surgeon telling me that the government uses the media as a tool. A well-learned fellow who hasn't figured out what wags what and totally missed the rest of my rant.

I haven't gone into the personal area of knowledge because I figured out months ago that the average reader is likely to believe that the president is an alien than the verifiable truth that is self-evident all over the place and right under your noses.

I'll shut up now. No use waking those who have no wish to be brought kicking and screaming into the light of day.

The light hurts the eyes Thomas... you should know that by now. What's the first reflex we have when hit with a bright cold light? Why... to close our eyes and turn away of course!

And here we have some of the root causes of my deep skepticisms... you and I know many of these "conspiracies" are mere distractions from the truth... which is... that... in reality... American Idol is a fair and honest talent show.

The president is and alien


William correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that the issue of WMD was used to preoccupy Saddam Iraq with that concern, so they would not have time to cover up any other?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

But I've always thought the WMD issue was being overblown. I never thought Iraq wasn't in possession of naughty nasty weapons, and had naughty nasty ideas on how to use them... but now... with no real weapons in sight... there is doubt.

And as the doubt increases... we wonder about Mr. Powell's performance at the U.N., especially as we hear he may have had doubts.

This won't end well.

But we still don't owe the Frenchies anything!

Well, to be succinct the administration of both countries are today presenting that the weapons they claimed will be found.

But a potential conclusion is that the US and UK used the media as a way to stop Saddam Hussein from covering up the fact of mass graves (which he could have the time to deal with had the focus not been so much on WMD).

To be honest I am just thinking out loud

Saddam Hussein bought the line and focussed upon what he thought what the coalition was intent upon addressing, while all along the fact of mass graves and the number missing was something he ignored (as a result of not having time to deal with it).


My impression is that as Blaire suggested we should be patient as in reality only 1/3 of the suggested sites have been addressed.

I personally would not apologize to the French if the paid me

I don't believe that the French are owed an apology.
They toed the line and did what they were told to do.
No apology, but it's senseless to keep on at them for basically following orders.


There are so many reasons why it was necessary to show a divided UN. You only have to look at the organisation today to see what the plan was.

The UN is now more important in the world psyche than ever before. People will be determined that it will not be defied again.

It's all part of a plan.
The next time the UN will be called upon, it will be regarding North Korea. A solid show of unity will be needed. By appearing to weaken the UN the US has made it more popular than ever.

Next time it will be listened to by the world. And woe betide anybody who goes up against it.

Hmmm, good reverse logic there Leveller.

Personally I'd have thought that ignoring the UN totally and going ahead with an almost unprecedented attack on a soverign nation would count as undermining the UN.

Certainly, keeping the UN out of reconstruction doesn't really lend any great backup to the idea that the UN is being strengthened through these actions.

In fact, don't you think the organisers of a good guy / bad guy routine would place the US in the role of good guy?

It's an interesting conspiracy theory, but I think there's a few holes in it.

At least we agree on the need for the US to stop using their institutions to bash the French.

Not reverse logic dude. Reverse psychology.

Quite a few things are at their most dangerous when they appear weakened. Corner a rat and it will attack with much more ferocity than if it had an avenue of escape.

The UN made itself look cornered. It forced the US to play it's hand and made itself look weakened. I say forced because of 1441. Not one country was unaware of what it was voting for. Like it or not, 1441 gave the US the green light. It set the US up for a fall by giving it the go ahead and then using every available measure to
disassociate itself with it's policeman's actions.

I know that US opinion on the UN varies greatly, however, in the rest of the world, the UN is seen as THE LAW. In everyones mind is the thought that it can never be disunited again. It has to speak with one voice next time or the general opinion is that it is finished. I don't believe that general opinion is true, but our media sure plays that premise up. Business goes on as usual at the UN today though, just as it always has.

It needed to strengthen it's hand. With the illusion of US failiure in Iraq it has literally made itself look like the voice of sanity. The next time that voice speaks everyone will have to listen.
That next time will be North Korea.

If the UN had sanctioned action in Iraq it would only have played into the hands of those who see the UN constantly bowing to the will of the US - looked upon as nothing more than a US (and West) puppet. By placing itself as the voice of reason, the UN is forcing China's hand too. They are going to have to cooperate with any action against North Korea. The US has already made itself look like the bad guy. If China flouts the UN on a second occasion, it's going to take a lot of critisism and look even worse.

As for the Iraq contracts? Well, even policemen need to draw a wage.

I wouldn't be suprised if there are WomD found in Iraq in the future.

And it wouldn't suprise me if it was a UN team of inspectors who claims their discovery and veracity rather than the US military.

Originally posted by Leveller
Like it or not, 1441 gave the US the green light.

How often do i have to read this ?

1441 reads : "The security council decides to remain seized of that question"

So 1441 is a red light for military action, if anything!!

Originally posted by Maxwell Smart

Originally posted by Leveller
1441 reads :
"The security council decides to remain seized of that question"

The line before yours reads:

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

www.un.int...


"Serious consequences"?
Vaguely worded I'll agree. But nonetheless they would have known when they agreed to it that this was a green light. And why so vaguely worded? Diplomats are sticklers for detail to an almost anal degree. If the UN were against military action it would have made damn well sure to have specified that fact. Yes, the US and UK wrote the resolution, but to say that the UN didn't know what it was voting for beggars belief. They could see the army massed on the border. They could hear the US and UK war rhetoric yet they did nothing. They decided to say that although they sanctioned force they hadn't made their mind up about it.
The last sentence (your quote) means nothing. Basically they washed their hands of the whole affair and dissasocciated themselves from the war, as I have stated previously.

I think a lot of people have badly underestimated the power of the UN. They have forgotten who created it and how it works. When North Korea raises it's head, we're all going to finds out just how much power it actually has.

Actually, the wording was carefully picked so that both sides could claim it backed them up. The US were demanding a green light, the opponents to war were demanding a red light, so they settled on an ambiguous light. That way both sides can claim legitimacy, while neither side really has any.

Passing resolutions which are interpreted differently by both sides is one more sign that the UN has been royally shafted recently.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
The same for the Paris suburbs areas. Cars rodeos, " tournantes " ( you know what's a " tournantes ", isn't it Nans ? ), cars or buildings destroyed or burned " just for the pleasure "....etc...etc... the list is endless....Paris is doomed and each days, is looking a little bit more as a new Gomorhe or a new Sodom.

It's like I said that all belgian are Charles DUTROUX, and you know who is Charles DUTROUX...

Altought, UP, Dont try to argue with me anymore. I think I'll turn on the ignore option once again, You have nothing to learn me. Your basic extrem-right speach, I've heard it many time, and in the mounth of people not so respectable.

[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]

[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Nans DESMICHELS]

It seems our intel groups are now saying the intel was good that was given, but the interpretation was where the wheels fell off the wagon. I know Iraq at least had WMD because I saw the dead women/children (Kurds) in '89. People don't die like that from gunshots. Whether sadaam stashed or destroyed WMD prior to the conflict still remains to be seen...if I were him, that would be good strategy.

It's like I said that all belgian are Charles DUTROUX, and you know who is Charles DUTROUX...

Altought, UP, Dont try to argue with me anymore. I think I'll turn on the ignore option once again, You have nothing to learn me. Your basic extrem-right speach, I've heard it many time, and in the mounth of people not so respectable.



Sorry Nans, I didn't try to offense you. Really. I just wrote what I saw when I was in Paris. Its not because you don't like it that you have to call me an extremist.

All the peoples that I know and who went in Paris ( even French peoples, not only Belgians ) have all the same opinion. And when I meet someone that I don't know, but who also went in Paris, he/she's telling me the same things as I wrote.

So you can still keeping your head in the sand if you want, but don't try to fool us. Reality is reality. It's not me who did it.

P.S : Yeah, Dutroux. What a shame. But I don't see what he's doing here ?

Nans UP, Europe is mostly the same, because of the vast amount of socialism.

You have empty buildings everywhere, if you come to a city in the US, I gaurentee you you'll NEVER find an empty building. I urge every American to go out and actually think when the last time they saw an Empty building was...and I mean one that was empty.

For like 8 years, like you have in Europe.

Here you have one empty for 8 months then it's suddenly a super mall or some sony or such. A macdonalds if nothing else lol.

Europe is a bit ran down because socialism kills incentives, which is why Communism fails so miserably.

Now I don't believe France is right on the issue of Iraq so NO they don't diserve an apology.

But it's not like we need to poo poo at them either.

They shouldn't have tried to impose their ideas and morals on us and we shouldn't try to on them. That simple.