TextAll posts are right about the democracy, and yes we are representative Republic.. But in all my travels, why are more countries moving towards are more democratic/republic i.e., free type of government v. "the others"



To be technical-parlimentary system v. representative republic

[Edited on 1-6-2003 by pokerbob]

I think that we owe appologies to France, Germany and the rest of the UN. We talk about getting rid of dictators, em well if i'm not mistaken, going to war without reason is kind of illegal! Lets see what the US and UK have done over the recent conflict...

1. Before the begining of the war the majority of people in the UK said no to war, it went ahead... Ok so that's not representing the majority and giving a big "F-You" to the British people.

2. Claiming the Iraq held WMD when they didn't, also revealed that Jack Straw and Colin P both agreed to themselves that thier little slide show was at best, 'clutching at straws'.

3. Consequently going to war illegally, including the bombing of cafe's in the centre of Baghdad, Residential areas etc... War Crimes anyone?

4. And oh yes, also giving the UN a big "F-You"

Now if we weren't the US/UK and tried to pull off a stunt like this you can bet it would have been a non-starter. But because the US is the super power people will not do anything about it in fear of being financially excluded from US trade/contracts etc...

I believe that the UK should join the EURO and side with Europe, because America will push too far in the future, and may end up starting a Euro American conflict, and i would much prefer being on Europe's side because the Americanisation of the world sucks! ( i hope someone doesn't point out the whole British Empire gig, and how we Britishfied the world, becuase i disagree with that too.)

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Vietnam because we were over there? What a shallow concept. Seems the education system is as bad as I thought it was

My Lai

Shallow, overly simplistic and vague, mush like trying to shape Jell-O.

Calley is a perfect example of how we take care of our own mistakes. The Lt. had a bad day and he was courts-martialed.

Let me ask you this, all these illegal aliens that have infiltrated our nation, do the nations from which they come owe us an apology for the crimes they have committed?

Sure, the incident at My Lai was unfortunate, but what do you know about it? I mean, what do you really know? Not some cut/paste job, not a bit of anti-American history lesson from some club, but from experience, something that could help you understand what was going on, from the Lt's perspective, the environment and the people, his chain of command, etc.

It's easy to throw rocks at other people and its easy to Monday morning quarterback, but if you really tried you could learn more about that scene to help you understand more about that day you have flippantly tossed up as an example.

TC - Are you trying to say that we should hold up Vietnam as some kind of positive lesson? I just don't see it I'm afraid.

I think the US should apologise for bombing the hell out of the country and killing 2-3 million people. It should also be paying to clean up some of the 77 million litres of chemicals dropped on the country.

I just don't see how Vietnam can be held up as anything other than a lesson in how not to do things...

Dom We owe Vietnam no apologies, we attepmted to intervene and prevent the spread of communism there. We bombed the hell out of them, so? The South Vietnamese didnt want to live under commies. Guess what, war happens, people die, # gets destroyed. What is it with Morons these days who rile up because people get killed in horrid ways? ITS BEEN HAPPENING SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HUMANITY.

And while were at it, Dom, why the hell dont the UK apaologize for the most horrid bombing of Dresden? Why dont you apologize for sentancing 400,000 people to a slow roasted death, destroying a non militay target of a city full of refugees fleeing the red army? It was more horrible than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And TOTALLY unnecesary.

Apoligies? Apologize to the US tropps who were sent to nam under false pretenses. Apologize to those vets whose lives have been broken, futures destroyed, and souls ripped from thier bodies. Apologize for sending them into a war that we knew they wouldnt win.

So we do not owe an apology to invading a country without provocation. North Vietnam did nothing to the US, they were less despotic and bloodthirsty than Dimh. So what if communism spread, it would have fallen in time anyway. Sorry if I have a bias against south vietnam, I am buddhist and I have seen the footage of the buddhist monk's "protest" and every time I see it I cry. "Monks barbeque" is what Dimh's wife called it.

XAOS

Ahhh bob, here we see another kneejerk reaction to being critisized. "Why are we wrong if everyone wants to come here".

You do not address the statement but attempt to deflect the argument off in another direction by appealing to the supposedly innate superiority of America as a justification for any wrongs it commits. This is the last tactic of people who really don't have an answer to the issues we are debating (I am not picking on you personally but you are a representation of many people)

The fact that people who are so eager to move to your country come from 3rd world countries seems to excape you.

Originally posted by pokerbob
I keep forgetting what a horrible country I live in! Text I have to wonder why are so many people wanting to come here to live?

FACT-the oldest democracy in the history of the world. A beacon of freedom for the world to see. The only reason tryanny has not prevailed. And why does most of the world want to live here

The French were right about Bush's plans for war - the reasons his administration gave were fabricated - and that is becoming ever more clear as time goes by. However, the French probably had other reasons for opposing the conflict, namely, protecting their oil contracts in Iraq.

Nobody was right in opposing or supporting this conflict. Bush and his warmongering administration put us all in a very awkward situation. They forced upon the world a moral question which did not have to be raised.

I think the Republican hawks owe the world an apology.

Since 9/11 Life has changed and it will never be the same again. We are witnessing the beginning of the NWO taking action against Islam. We can shout about the lies we have been fed till we are blue in the face it will make no difference what so ever. Blair, Bush, Powell, Rumsfelt, Straw They are all puppets for the Zionists. We have seen the pictures taken by Al jassera of Muslims killed when the US dropped a bomb right in the middle of them. They were not a military threat to any one but still the US bombed them while they were at prayer. Men, women, even children all innocent people murdered by the NWO coalition forces. When I saw images of a dead 8-year old boy it made me sad and very angry towards the US, it was as if the dead boy was my own 8-year-old son. We have no say in any of the judgements made by our governments they kill these people in our name the name of the Free West.

The Vietnam War, Iran Iraq war, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Afghanistan against the Russian invasion plus many more were all attempts or used by the CIA to (Kick Ass) fight against those who they hate Communism and Islam. And who hates the communists, Islam, Catholics, Buddhists and Hindus more then anything it's the Zionist's. As for the Congo and other African conflicts the UN (and lets admit it the US practically controls the UN) and the US have done nothing to help the millions that have been killed, displaced and lead to mass starvation and disease by power hungry dictators. Yes dictators like Saddam, like Hitler, like Malochovitch and like Stalin yet no US attempts there hey. The whole axis of evil and the 9/11 attacks and now with the war in the Middle East stinks of SH*T lies Death and Decay. The FOUR HORSEMEN of the APPOGOLIPSE ARE HERE!

1. WAR - (BUSH) as we have seen on our TV's and with the other wars in the pipeline.
2. DEATH - (BLAIR) All the innocent people that died in the 9/11 attacks and with the innocent Palestinians and Muslims.
3. PESTULANCE - (DONALD RUMSFELT) SARS virus HIV and AIDS.
4. FAMINE - (COLIN POWELL) Africa is facing another famine that will be bigger then the last Ethiopian famine of '81 NOT LONG TILL WE HAVE MASS FAMINE IN AFRICA.
If their is a god and I hope there is, then God bless us all because we are heading into deep SH*T..

Jesus. I've seen it all now.
Logic just seems to fly out of the window with some of you people doesn't it?

Look. The only reason most of you guys have a problem with the US is because you fear what you don't know about. So of you go trying to throw wild accusations around as if they are facts.
Anyone who posts anything halfways decent in the defence of the US is pounced on.
Yet not one of the people here come from nations that haven't committed worse atrocities than the US. What about the old saying that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?

You hate the US because you either don't understand what is going on in the world today, out of ignorance, or even worse - you blame it for the shortcomings in your own lives rather than blaming yourselves and your own governments.

Even your own argument can be turned against you.

Look at it logically. Even if the US is the worst country in the world - YOU put it in it's great position of power. I'll bet there isn't one of you here who doesn't buy American goods. You helped to make it the most powerful economy on Earth. You greedily swallow it's culture and feed it the money to commit these so called atrocities. Nobody forced you to though. It was your choice. You created your own bogeyman.

The Americans are only doing what YOU have paid them to do.

Jesus. I've seen it all now.
Logic just seems to fly out of the window with some of you people doesn't it?

What exactly has been illogical here? That those in Washington have lied, bribed, insulted and bullied those that did not see it their way?

Look. The only reason most of you guys have a problem with the US is because you fear what you don't know about. So of you go trying to throw wild accusations around as if they are facts.
Anyone who posts anything halfways decent in the defence of the US is pounced on.

No, actually the reason most of us guys have a problem with the U.S. is because we know all too well about our country and how it functions. America is not a democracy anymore, it's become an elitist monarchy. The financial elite buying their way into power to ensure the future of their brethren.

Just how are these accusations wild? That our government lies to the world? That our electoral process was hijacked by a dyslexic, rich-boy? That our politicians are the elite, corrupt, figureheads we believe them to be? Perhaps that maybe, just maybe, the people in our government don't give a sh!t about anything but their pocket books and their own twisted agendas.

Yet not one of the people here come from nations that haven't committed worse atrocities than the US. What about the old saying that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?

Maybe because America is supposed to be the benchmark of civilization is the reason why the U.S. receives so much flak for the outrageously stupid things it does.

You hate the US because you either don't understand what is going on in the world today, out of ignorance, or even worse - you blame it for the shortcomings in your own lives rather than blaming yourselves and your own governments. Even your own argument can be turned against you.

The world becomes very simplified when an American troop kills your family and blows your arms off with a bomb at the age of 12. I don't think you have the credibility to say who knows what in the world when you have yet to suffer as some people have at the expense of U.S. policy.

Look at it logically. Even if the US is the worst country in the world - YOU put it in it's great position of power. I'll bet there isn't one of you here who doesn't buy American goods. You helped to make it the most powerful economy on Earth. You greedily swallow it's culture and feed it the money to commit these so called atrocities. Nobody forced you to though. It was your choice. You created your own bogeyman.

The Americans are only doing what YOU have paid them to do.

Yes, we as the people brought America to power, but we didn't create the monster it is today.

What you expect us in the U.S. to do, go over seas every time we need a gallon of milk? Or maybe spend obscene amounts of money to buy everything we need from another country, perhaps that would make you happy.

Has it ever occured to you that a good many of us illogical American's are just trying to struggle through our lives working 2 to 3 jobs, raising kids just keeping our heads above water? Oh, but we should all buy our goods from another country huh?

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

What exactly has been illogical here? That those in Washington have lied, bribed, insulted and bullied those that did not see it their way?

You wanna know what exactly is illogical?
All of it.


Firstly you have no proof of most of what's been said here. Your whole theory is based on the fact that there are no WoMD.
Says who?
Prove to me that they don't exist. Prove to me that they won't ever be found.
And that's just for starters!!!!


Prove to me that none of what has happened recently hasn't been planned and executed as well as could be expected. Prove to me that these so called "restrictions on your freedom" actually do affect your life. Prove to me that Jews run the US. Prove to me that the US is just after oil. Prove to me that the US is just fighting Islam. Prove to me that their intentions toward their population are evil. Prove to me that the US bullied the UN. Prove to me that the US intends to invade Iran, Syria and NK. Prove to me that this is all some great big, evil conspiracy.

Proof. Where is your proof? I don't see one single thing that convinces me otherwise. Yet I see a hell of a lot out there that tells me that you are wrong.

Originally posted by xaos
So we do not owe an apology to invading a country without provocation. North Vietnam did nothing to the US, they were less despotic and bloodthirsty than Dimh. So what if communism spread, it would have fallen in time anyway. Sorry if I have a bias against south vietnam, I am buddhist and I have seen the footage of the buddhist monk's "protest" and every time I see it I cry. "Monks barbeque" is what Dimh's wife called it.

XAOS

Sorry, but the spread of communism would have continued until it destroyed many nations before it fell, just like a virus can destroy its host before dying. As it took more and more nations, it would have taken the wealth of those nations. It could have become much stronger, and wealthier (although in theory that wasn't supposed to be the case), and the end result could have been a more tragic ending for the world.

Communism was a religionless idea. Buddhism would have faired no better than any other religion had the Communists been victorious. "Useful Idiots", as the Communists called them, came in all shapes, sizes, and even religions.

The South Vietnamese government was a corrupt government, to be sure. We still had a defense treaty with them and were obligated to come to their aide, and that is that. But it does go a little deeper than just that, as well.

If you are interested, you can do some research and see how the U.N. tied into that particular conflict, why the U.S. did not and could not win, and how the Russians knew each and every move that the U.S. made throughout the conflict and why.

The sad thing about the whole deal was that Ho Chi Minh was a strong ally of the U.S. during WWII. After WWII, Vietnam still had their struggle for freedom against the French (You remember them, the ones who had regained their freedom at the cost of hundreds of thousands of American lives), and all that was requested of us was to not support the French and to say some kind words about the Vietnamese on the international scene. Instead, we backed a side that has always been ungrateful.

There is much more to it than this little bit, and more resding and learning than most here will bother to do, as is the case with the whole Cold War time. I expect to see the same old shallow and overly simplistic, not to mention incorrect blurbs over and over, just as I continue to see. How many times have I already bothered with the highlighting of the Vietnamese conflict?

To me, the scary thing is that there are fewer and fewer people who know more than garbage taught in anti-American blurb form taught in the American schools. In a few years the Orwellian scenario will be complete.

Originally posted by xaos
Technically we are not the oldest democracy in the history of the world. We are a republic, which IMO can be just as tyrannical as a dictatorship.

XAOS

Gee, again you're mixing up the facts. No problem, it is the thing to do, and it isn't your fault, I believe. I'm just happy to see that someone else understands the two words are not interchangeable!

WE are certainly not the oldest democracy. Without going into detail, let me mention one place: Sparta. They were a true democracy, including military rule.

Were the U.S. a true democracy, the folks out in the "Left Coast" could be just as abominably liberal as they wanted without dragging us in the SouthEast with them through the federal court system. Since we are no longer a Republic, that is not the case.

"Democracy" is not what it is cracked up to be, and thanks to the dumbing down of the public and manipulation of the language, it is used against the dumb public. We as a collective can be made to vote for exactly that which will destroy us and think we are doing the right thing.

BTW, as far as the question of freedom of speech being taken away, please give me some examples of that. Tell me something that was worse than what Clinton did when he was in office, and without any silly laws backing him up. I haven't noticed any doors being kicked in at my house and I'm not what one might call a vocal proponent for the government in the real world, its just that there are so many poorly educated and misguided people in the e-world that the discussions make me sound that way.

There is no doubt that what we in America now have is a long way from where we were supposed to be, but most have so little knowledge of it, there is no way to explain it to where it makes sense. If you are interested in learning, you'll have to pursue that on your own and at your own pace. Its too much to swallow at one time, it goes aginst your public and government-sanctioned private education training.
If you've stayed within the parameters of what you've been taught to accept, and most have here, other than Jag., the truth will cause you to choke in one sitting.

Think about this, though, what would you do if two years from now you realized that what you've been taught by respected teachers was a lie, if everything that you thought was real and just was a creation of those who want to own you; a legal creation, but a creation nevertheless?

Would you spread the word, sound the siren, try and wake everyone up? Do you think you'd be accepted, or figured to be a kook like me? And if you woke the majority up, do you think those in control would continue to play by the rules or do you think they'd do whatever it took to maintain control?

Anyway, how many do you think would want to be awakened? Living as a straw man has certain securities that most have come to cherish.

Thomas Crowne, I think your blood pressure just went through the roof

A good debate however i dont feel we owe them an apology but i dont think we should sit taunting them, lets just see what tony blair produces soon in the nature of evidence.
Anyway, Why apologise because you disagree with someone? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thomas.

And I must express my appreication of you takeing the time to tell it like it is.

Thanks, Advisor, but it'll do no good. I don't think there's anything to do to wake the U.S., let alone the world up to how it is supposed to be, much less get them to do anything about it.

You know what it seems like? It seems like those in wealthy nations feel they have too much to lose to get all worked up and those in the underdeveloped nations feel they have no chance to catch up.

While I haven't seen a group of protestors yet that had a clue about a clue, at least they protest.

The world can be spiritually colored as grey.

Your biggest problem TC! Sorry but "your" government uses the media. It's a wonderful tool. It's just too bad you can't see it! A toast to ignorance/apathy!

That UN resolution along with the 14 others that were violated by Iraq. Gave the "ok" so to speak to take action against the regime for said violations.

As for the NWO and/or US actions against Muslims-what about the 10,000 us troops sent to Bosnia and the US presence still there?

Friends still serving and in both Afghanistan and Iraq say to a man, the warm greeting they have been receiving. The US in not perfect, but there are very few nations in history that have gone to war and/or sent assistance at the level we have. That is both $$$ and hard goods.

If there is some conspiracy with Bush---why if Clinton not taking Bin Laden is "blown off" as a right wing conspiracy?

How about addressing the French, Russians, Germans, and UN and the oil for food program? As I always say follow the money--the aforementioned countries and a certain president of the UN and the UN made a few $$$ for each barrel of oil sold under the program.

War for OIL-Yes-the Iraqi people will actually get the money and other oil producers will experience a drop in prices as the 2nd largest reserves are tapped into.

p.s. I am new to this-I will get better-and your help and guidance is appreciated