I never swallowed their lies so I guess your whole post is irrelevant as far as trying to educate me goes.

Read through my previous posts. You'll find that I believe that WoMD were merely an excuse. A trigger so that we could start getting things done.
Read the news. Really read the news and you will see why.

Yeah. There is oil involved. But not in the way that you are thinking.

Look at the countries in the Middle East. Look at their industries. They have nothing. Oil is a finite resource. When it runs out - which won't be long at the rate that we're using it - what are these countries going to do to survive?
They haven't invested any of their oil money in their futures have they? No, it all goes to one or two people because they've never advanced from their tribal system. So what you've got is a few Arab families sucking up the wealth of their countries and giving nothing to their people in return. Even if you followed that the US will take all of their oil (which I totally do not believe), the Arab people would end up benefiting more than they do at the moment.
Even if we leave them with their oil, it will eventually run out. What will happen then? We in the West will survive. We are advanced enough to be able to look for other forms of energy. Yeah sure it will be hard. But we've got a head start on everybody.

But what will the Arabs do? They'll have nothing to sell. Nothing to live on. Nothing worth living for.

I suggest you look to Kuwait for an example of what the US has in store for the region. A country whose society was almost destroyed 12 years ago. A country which the US had a blank canvas to work with. A country that is gradually becoming better and better. Although oil is their major industry they haven't put all of their eggs in one basket. They have started to build a manufacturing base for other industries.

You can believe what you want. You can swallow any propoganda that you find. But I read a lot. I can see that either way, oil is not going to be the major issue in this world for long. Simply because there won't be any.

Originally posted by Leveller
Look at the countries in the Middle East. Look at their industries. They have nothing. Oil is a finite resource. When it runs out - which won't be long at the rate that we're using it - what are these countries going to do to survive?
They haven't invested any of their oil money in their futures have they? No, it all goes to one or two people because they've never advanced from their tribal system.

Your intent is noble, Leveller, but you dont know much about the social structures of these middle eastern countries. Syria, Iraq and Iran are precisely the nations in the middle east with a disctinct egalitarian social structure, as opposed to the US allies in the region which effectively are the clan violence ruled nightmares you pictured. If anything, the US involvement in the region seeks to destroy egalitarian or socialist/islamic regimes and turn them into violence-based monarchies or dictatorships (Saudi, Oman, UAE, Qatar, etc...)

It is Israel/the US who are actively thwarting the middle eastern countries attempts to get alternative energy sources (Iraq, Iran f.ex.), to secure their future. Read the news and you will find the contrary of what you think is true.

Just because France gave us the statue of Liberty and happens to have a replica of there own faceing ours dont mean squat these days! So what if they have differring ideas, they decided oil was more important than national relations!

Hmmmm, sounds AWFULLY familiar dont it?!
*cough* Bush *cough*

In my opinion SCREW OIL! since jesus christ its been the second most dangerious cause of war, not to mention a corruptor of governments!

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
If anything, the US involvement in the region seeks to destroy egalitarian or socialist/islamic regimes and turn them into violence-based monarchies or dictatorships (Saudi, Oman, UAE, Qatar, etc...)

These societies were formed like this to deal with the Cold War. To keep total control of oil out of Soviet hands.
They have served their purpose.

too early to say anything to the French really.

And NC, we swore at them, teased them, etc, all before this debacle.

what if the US finds wmd's - will there be a poll in France asking if they should apologize to the US? Doubt it. And, if France didn't think there were any weapons why did they push for inspections? What then would be the point. Why didn't they just state Iraq didn't have weapons and say they don't want war or inspections. And what about those French passports found in Iraq, or the French radar systems in Iraq? As much as I read about the war being about oil - with France as it seemed putting off the war because oil was there m.o. So, should they apologize for supporting a dictator? Another charge so frequently pointed towards the US.

Despite supposedly how well the Iraqi Liberation has went, the case for war was falsified, period. I don't care if we saved Jesus from being crusified while in Iraq, the fact is, is that the Bu#es have lied to the world, and the lies just keep coming.

The Lynch lie, the looting lie, the WMD lie, the Saddam (Berlin) Statue Toppling that is highly suspect of being orchestrated.

Bush friends and contributors getting sexy, no bid contracts. Facilities suspected to be housing nuclear and/or biological materials looted while our "Special--Ed Inspectors" are busy looking under couch cushions.

Iraq is in utter chaos, but we liberated them! American soldiers continue to die because of the chaos, but we sure have that pesky Oil Ministry under control! Iraqi civilians continue to become a statistic, but we found a possible roach coach that may have produced possible biological agents! (raise terror level alert) We have allowed cholera to rear it's ugly head, but we renamed our french toast and french fries--teach those pesky french a lesson!

We stood defiantly beside our lies and removed a terrible dictator, dead or alive, but...he's more alive then dead, and we don't know where he is......But we should all beat our chests!!!

Is the sh!t getting thick enough for you?

The world is not a safer place because Saddam is now in a pleasant exile. The world is not a safer place because we allowed god knows who to loot unknown materials from factories and warehouses that we left uninspected for weeks. The world is not a safer place because we went after the wrong people for the wrong reason at the wrong time.

The world is slowly drifting to a Cold Warlike chaos once again because fanatical right wingers are intent on starting a new arms race with economical versions of nuclear weapons that we may just start using for the hell of it on battle fields. Monkey see monkey do...

But we are ready to take on Iran next. Then after we take out Syria and maybe a few other small nations that have marginally effective air forces, we can build a gentlemen's club on the graves of peasants in Israel and Saudi Arabia that we have been dying to have.

Hey, we liberated Iraq and made the world a safer place.......where exactly is it safer unless you're already dead?




[Edited on 1-6-2003 by Thorfinn Skullsplitter]

No way we owe those bastards an apology, they basicly want power and prestige without earning it. Ha, in this world you have to pick sides. If they start bitching, let them bitch, we have more of an advantage now.

Do we owe France an apology?

For what? Looking after their own interests?

I dont care WTF they said, they did it to the be the martyr because they knew this war wasnt supported by many, its kinda like taking the moral high ground in a flood of lies...except your already up to your ankles

Good little rant Thorefin, I like it

When the war debate started I was very pro war, I can easily show this through the posts I made at the time.

I believed that Saddam was a threat to world peace, that he posessed WMD and that he had the potential to use and distribute them at will. Dammit I TRUSTED bush and co.

What have I found in the last few weeks?

I have been lied to by a govt that is meant to represent the Free world. That they twisted facts, and created evidence, then had the guts to stand up and lie - Rumsfield and Bush - to the world. Now they comes out with "Oh I'm sorry we were wrong" after stating definitly and solidly that the weapons were there. Now they are looking for the scapegoats to carry the blame for the lies they created.

He has made us all look like gullible fools for trusting him. I would have been better off beliving in B.r.i.a.n than believing that Bush and Rumsfeld had the interests of freedom at heart.

Now that the Iraqis have been freed, yeah you can point to that as a winner, but what about the Congo, Nth Korea, Zimbabwe etc? Suddenly Iraq is no more important than those countries.

The farce hasn't ended with the so called free iraq falling into disorder and chaos through the incompetent handling of the rebuilding. They are thinking of replacing the 2nd leadership in Iraq now as they too are not handling the task.

I am sorry but by faith in the present govt to handle its affairs in an ethical, upright, and honest manner is dead. What amases me is the absence of anger from people who sent their sons to die in that country hoodwinked by lies that they were helping to save the free world. It just like it doesn't matter that your president, and Rumsfeld sood in front of you and LIED to your face.

Sure France has its own agenda and may have not supported America because of their own national interests, but these pale as crimes or sins against what Bush and co have done. In the end they were right, despite their motives.



[Edited on 1-6-2003 by Netchicken]

It's obvious we should apologize to a host of countries; I do not believe we OWE France a thing.

My brother is getting is close to getting his doctorate in chemistry and this is his opinion on the WMD ' the US will never find what they are loking for if Saddam is as smart as people think he was, he knew america would win so he escaped, but before he did he would of ordered the WMD disasembled. Here at the university we have biochemical agents whitch if put into a bomb would be considered a WMD but since it isnt put together it is just chemicals. People dont realise that all they need to do is find the barrel whitch use to house the chemicals, nothing more nothing less. Unfortunitly for the US everyone wants proof of the WMD and when they say proof they want the misslies and the chemicals.'
I think my brother has a point, chemical weapons are easily disassembled and reassembled. hell if you want your proof of the WMD's the mobile chem labs are about as close as your gona get.

Originally posted by Leveller
Look at the countries in the Middle East. Look at their industries. They have nothing. Oil is a finite resource. When it runs out - which won't be long at the rate that we're using it - what are these countries going to do to survive?
They haven't invested any of their oil money in their futures have they? No, it all goes to one or two people because they've never advanced from their tribal system.

You so right.

If you take the volume exports, without their petrol, of Iran, Irak,Lybia, Syria, Egypt, Arabia,Jordania, Kuwait and the rest of these nations, you'll have the same exports volume as Finland has.

Without their oil, they are NOTHING. Only a few nation, as Kuwait , Abu Dhabi or Oman are doing something for their post-oil future.

The problem for them is they have lived , and most of them are still living, under a dictatorship who keep all the money for some greedy peoples who don't care for their citizens. And they use the faith and the religion as a control tool against their citizens. As their citizens are extremely poors and uneducated, they can do what they want, it works. Obsucrity and darkness are ruling these nations. Setting up a real democracy in that region will help the peoples of that region.

I keep forgetting what a horrible country I live in! Text I have to wonder why are so many people wanting to come here to live?

FACT-the oldest democracy in the history of the world. A beacon of freedom for the world to see. The only reason tryanny has not prevailed. And why does most of the world want to live here

Technically we are not the oldest democracy in the history of the world. We are a republic, which IMO can be just as tyrannical as a dictatorship.

XAOS

Could you just enlighten me about how the US is the earliest democracy, when we've had a house of commons with authority over the monarchy since 1689?

I love the way Americans rewrite history. "Feb. 2003 : And then God came down and said to Dubya, 'Go forth, and conquer Iraq, for you are just, you are the bringer of all light'." The Book of FOX, Chapter 7, paragraph 23

As for oweing France an apology. I'd just prefer if the US would tone down the general anti-France thing. Seems unfair to totally destroy a countries reputation on the basis that it stood up to US power and actually decided not to allow George Bush to tell it what to do. So what, France makes it's own mind up about things, big deal, there's no need to demonise them for it. Particuarly when the US argument was based on shaky facts, half-truths, and in some cases lies (45 minutes to deploy chem/bio weapons remember).

You are right, a republic....But tyrannical?????
How can we even have this discussion if that was the case????

The US has no records of democracy. The oldest democracy in the history of the world would brobably have been a tribal system in whoch every member has their say, but since they had no form of records at the time we do not know if it really existed. So we have to go with greece and rome for the record.

XAOS