What about Tacitus? Historical 'Christus' reference

a reply to: windword

''You can say the same thing about Hercules, and have a better case. There are statues and many, many more writings about Hercules than Jesus.

But, we don't have any statues of Jesus, no faces of Jesus on coins.''

Ancient pagan nations from Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc were polytheistic. Jews, a monotheistic nation for the most part of their history obeyed & held firm to the command of the prohibition of idolatry of any sort which set them as unique from all the rest of the nations of the world when it came to commemorating someone's image or caption on anything such as coins, statues, drawings etc.

Why would any likeness of Jesus be commemorated by any statues or coins? Jerusalem was never a world government. They were in ancient times a theocracy.

Also, Greco-Rome (super world governmental powers) both had panthoens of gods that were mostly the same with different names. These were national characters adopted by Rome from Greece for literary & art works; canon on Jesus are not literary works & that is why you won't find any statutes of him in ancient times.

a reply to: Agartha

''

There are too many discrepancies and too many contradictions between the 4 disciples which cannot make them trustworthy historians. Besides the different accounts regarding his genealogy and the nativity story, there are more important contradictions between them regarding what he did when he supposedly walked with them ...they can't even agree on what happened during his crucifixion and resurrection... which version are we supposed to believe?

I have yet to find any.

If scholars / historians would think the gospels were reliable eyewitness accounts they would use the NT as a historical record, and they do not.

As ''intellectual & knowledgeable'' as these are today (including some historians), they are no different than those of the past. Although the same book that claims to be full of falsified stories told us that the earth was oval shaped. Later ''intellectuals'' of the times thought just the opposite until further research, space exploration & pictures finally proved the Bible as accurate. The Bible also mentioned burying human waste under the ground & away from human contact to rid of disease. Abstaining from sex with multiple partners for various reasons such as unwanted pregnancies, disease etc. Refraining from eating foods that still contained blood in it by under cooking which can cause blood borne illnesses. It also spoke of drinking a little wine for stomach ailments too.

Today we know that what the ancient Bible writers recorded were of truth & beneficial for humans as proven by astronomy, science & the medical field. Still some ''intellects'' such as certain Biblical critics & historians wish to make the Bible a book of fiction & anything or anybody that will support it.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
A question, for Jesus, why do the Jews, not believe you at all?

Could it be, that not a one of THEM noticed you were a God-Man ???

Or is this just another Conspiracy placed on them............

Jews For Jesus...Just saying...

On a side note, ALL of Christ's original followers were Jews... Thanks for playing...

a reply to: windword

What does it take for you to call a person a scholar? Like I said earlier, if you or anyone here are able to prove any of the Tacitus manuscripts that have survived until the present— are forgeries, the owners of these manuscripts would probably be more than interested in hearing you out.

The Jesus that was a messiah son of God who died for our sins never existed, but the carpenter's (or mason, since they built houses from stones) son who struggled against those kinds of expectations and delusions— and ended up being crucified because of it— most likely did.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Like I said earlier, if you or anyone here are able to prove any of the Tacitus manuscripts that have survived until the present— are forgeries, the owners of these manuscripts would probably be more than interested in hearing you out

Get out of town! There aren't any extant original Tacitus Manuscripts that have survived until the present!
SOURCE
SOURCE

It seems their could be more doubt about jesus even from within the ranks of "biblical scholars" (ie. apologists pretending to be historians) than proponents would like to acknowledge when they throw out their "no mainstream scholar doubts jesus existed" appeal to authority fallacy. It is a proposition (that he might not have existed) that is becoming more common and will continue to do so, for obvious reasons.

Here is an otherwise well respected and published scholar (and clergyman) showing a bit of intellectual integrity. Caused him a lot of problems though.

Brodie endorsed the Christ myth theory and expressed that Jesus of Nazareth was not a historical figure, a belief he reports he has held since the 1970s.

The following makes the whole discipline resemble the "quasi intellectual" wing of a religious cult, rather than an academic discipline. Apparently to hold an opinion that veers from the consensus of these apologists masquerading as historians is "imprudent and dangerous" lol. Cult censorship at it's finest. Should be thankful they can no longer torture dissidents.

It's not as though the belief amongst such "scholars" is based repeatable experimentation or anything, it's simply faith.

Following on these deliberations the committee advised that they judged Beyond the Quest to be ‘imprudent and dangerous’ (a phrase from the Order’s own legislation). Accepting this assessment, the Provincial continued the sanctions on Tom Brodie – that he withdraw fully from ministry and from all forms of teaching, writing, or making public statements.

en.wikipedia.org...

Another Emeritus Professor of biblical studies who feels the historical existence/non existence of jesus is an open question.

...surely the rather fragile historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth should be tested to see what weight it can bear...Such a normal exercise should hardly generate controversy in most fields of ancient history, but of course New Testament studies is not...that the whole idea of raising this question needs to be attacked, ad hominem, as something outrageous. This is precisely the tactic anti-minimalists tried twenty years ago: their targets were ‘amateurs’, ‘incompetent’, and could be ignored. The ‘amateurs’ are now all retired professors, while virtually everyone else in the field has become minimalist (if in most cases grudgingly and tacitly). So, as the saying goes, déjà vu all over again.

a recognition that his existence is not entirely certain would nudge Jesus scholarship towards academic respectability...The persistence of Christianity owes most, in fact, to Constantine, who opted for it as the imperial cult, and endowed it, creeds and fancy dress included, with imperial trappings.

www.bibleinterp.com...

Another Professor of biblical studies who thinks this whole field of (quasi) academia should be scrapped and start again.

In 2007 Avalos published The End of Biblical Studies (2007) where he argued that academic biblical scholarship was primarily an apologetic religionist enterprise

en.wikipedia.org...

There are plenty more and these opinions are not uncommon. Indicating that even within biblical scholarship, there is nowhere near the certainty that religious people like to portray.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

The Jesus that was a messiah son of God who died for our sins never existed, but the carpenter's (or mason, since they built houses from stones) son who struggled against those kinds of expectations and delusions— and ended up being crucified because of it— most likely did.

...and also according to your theory, most likely "fed the multitudes" with blue whale from the Mediterranean and 50kg loaves of bread, because he was a practical joker lol. Have you run this by biblical scholars for opinion..?

It's quite simple. The specific and relevant Tacitus passage didn't exist in this form (if at all) until the middle ages. This has been well explained, that you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't make it otherwise.

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

The Jesus that was a messiah son of God who died for our sins never existed, but the carpenter's (or mason, since they built houses from stones) son who struggled against those kinds of expectations and delusions— and ended up being crucified because of it— most likely did.

...and also according to your theory, most likely "fed the multitudes" with blue whale from the Mediterranean and 50kg loaves of bread, because he was a practical joker lol. Have you run this by biblical scholars for opinion..?

No, I asked a baker and a cook and they liked the idea and said it is completely doable. The text says the breads cost the equivalent of 200 days' salaries. They were huge, but still fairly simple to bake. Many of his disciples were fishermen, they would have no problem pulling up a couple big tunas.

It's quite simple. The specific and relevant Tacitus passage didn't exist in this form (if at all) until the middle ages. This has been well explained, that you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't make it otherwise.

First you say these manuscripts don't exist, then you claim to being able to prove these things were added by printers. It's pointless to claim Tacitus is a forgery. Only valid statement I've heard about this and which is not entirely and thoroughly debunked, is that his references to «Christ» and «Christians» are too vague and too general to be used as proof Jesus existed, even though the context also seems to confirm the crucifixion narrative of the Gospel. It's fallacy to claim Jesus never lived. Nonsense.

May be a little off topic, not addressing Tacitus (I have Tacitus' writings in my library) , but there are two events that shape the world and most of all culture. First is the flood of Noah, since almost every culture has a story similar in nature, and Halloween-All Saints Day-Dia De Los Muertos and other celebrations correspond to Cheshvan 17 in the bible (17th day of the second month-Genesis 7:11).

The other is Jesus. We use a calendar of BC/AD. Before Christ/Anno Domini (Year of our Lord).

In a court of law, people are convicted of crimes based on circumstantial evidence. Now the evidence above may be circumstantial to some, but it most certainly shows that something DID happen in human history by the continuance of customs.

originally posted by: TheChrome
First is the flood of Noah, since almost every culture has a story similar in nature, and Halloween-All Saints Day-Dia De Los Muertos and other celebrations correspond to Cheshvan 17 in the bible (17th day of the second month-Genesis 7:11).

The biblical flood didn't happen. Not sure what you're getting at with Halloween/the Bible.

We use a calendar of BC/AD. Before Christ/Anno Domini (Year of our Lord).

The BCE/CE is now far more common. The latin references to one particular mythology (out of countless such myths) are a bit antiquated, relics. You realise we owe the archaic version to a 6 th century Christian fanatic/monk?

Only for circumstance and the eventual fall of the empire, we might be using "AUC" (ab urbe condita) and debating the historicity of Romulus.

something DID happen in human history by the continuance of customs.

This is what happened re continuance of customs. Only for this Christianity would probably be some long forgotten and obscure ancient belief, like many others. Under different circumstances, we might be debating the historicity of any number of other mythological religious figures. If they were forced on people under threat of torture for a thousand years or so.

The persistence of Christianity owes most, in fact, to Constantine, who opted for it as the imperial cult, and endowed it, creeds and fancy dress included, with imperial trappings.

Emeritus Prof. Phillip Davies

John Frum was probably based on a historical person. He went from being a normal person who advised and helped the oppressed locals (running foul of authorities), to also being a (claimed) magical deity, in less than a century. Isn't it ironic that christian missionaries were largely the oppressors.

Jesus was exactly the opposite. He went from originally being a completely magical deity who appeared in visions, to also being a (claimed) historical person in about one century. An attempt at prophecy fulfillment from the mythology of the times, amongst great oppression. This is why there are no genuine historical references, despite it being one of the better catalogued times and places in ancient history.

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum
...and also according to your theory, most likely "fed the multitudes" with [...] 50kg loaves of bread

==> Revelation 6:6 gives us a measure of what one could expect to pay for wheat in what is often interpreted as during a famine. One measure or Gr. χοῖνιξ «Koenix» of wheat (a litre or a «quart») for a penny or Gr. δηνάριον «Denarion» (a day's wages).

==> And in Mark 6:37 story goes Jesus had his disciples buy five [units of] breads for 200 denarii worth; his disciples ask, «should we buy bread for 200 denarii?» upon which Jesus asks: «How much do you get?» and the disciples answer, five meals, understood they would be able to feed the multitude five meals. Enough for the few days they were there. We are talking 200 litres of fine wheat bought at famine black market prices.

==> How much bread can you bake with 200 litres of wheat? Or how many breads could you get for 200 denarii? And could you feed 5000 people with it, if you also had a couple of tunas his fisherman buddies had caught. Miracles don't exist, ignorance does though. Read everything the text says.

==> According to sites.google.com... you'd get one bread for 1/2 sestertius, and according to en.wikipedia.org... 1 sestertius was 1/4 denar, so, eight breads for one denarion. Multiplied by 200 ==> 1600 normal breads.

Only magic here is people's ignorance as to what the texts actually say. People expect Jesus to be pulling hundreds of rabbits up from his hat. It's a bias that doesn't only include Christians, atheists are the most doctrinal of them all. It's all bollocks! Nothing to see here— Keep calm and Carry on....

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I'd love to see anyone refute my latest post here. If you get 5 breads out of flour worth 200 denarii, those breads are pretty damn huge..... Anyone, time to reherse the old unfinished symphony again. How much did a bread cost during Jesus's time again?