It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
The syriac and arabic translations, do not have those alterations, yet still mention Jesus, and his execution by order of Pilate.
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: TzarChasm
Obama being an alien is silly and can be easily proven not to be true. Bad comparison.
I don't see what is dubious about the existence of Jesus. That's not a silly notion whatsoever.
originally posted by: TzarChasm
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: TzarChasm
Obama being an alien is silly and can be easily proven not to be true. Bad comparison.
I don't see what is dubious about the existence of Jesus. That's not a silly notion whatsoever.
i can make just as many arguments for obama being an extraterretrial as you can make for jesus existing. or god for that matter.
originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
originally posted by: Tangerine
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
Now, I am no biblical scholar, but it is my understanding that there is plenty of evidence that is accepted by historians that a man named Jesus did exist, and was crucified by the Romans.
Extra-biblical writers such as Tacitus and Jospehus validated some of the things written in the NT, and I believe the Egyptians even wrote about Jesus.
Now whether or not he was the son of god is irrellevant.
You are mistaken. There is zero contemporaneous documentation (and that's the only kind that counts). Tacitus and Josephus were not even alive when Jesus allegedly lived and could not have witnessed him living. Tacitus simply repeated stories and Josephus never wrote about Jesus. In 400 AD, the church inserted a forgery into his works that mentions Jesus. It was so poorly written that almost no one takes it seriously. It even included language not in use at the time Josephus lived.
SO...who was alive and wrote about personally seeing this building "inserting" said forgery into Josephus' works? You can't have it both ways...Or, are you just using the inclusion of how it was written as your evidence? And, that...Well, that's just ridiculous.
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
You can make any argument you want, but there is more evidence to suggest Jesus existed than there is to suggest Obama is an alien. Hell, you can't even prove aliens exist, let alone that Obama is one of them.
originally posted by: Tangerine
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
You can make any argument you want, but there is more evidence to suggest Jesus existed than there is to suggest Obama is an alien. Hell, you can't even prove aliens exist, let alone that Obama is one of them.
Zero is not more than zero.
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DeadSeraph
Thus, even though Josephus may not have referred to Jesus, that does not necessarily imply that there was no historical Jesus. While a reference to Jesus would help substantiate the historicity of Jesus, it, by the same token, wouldn't necessarily settle the question outright, especially when the supposed reference is the subject of such severe textual difficulties. While the appeal to the text of Josephus is often made in the attempt to secure the place of Jesus as a figure in history, the text of Josephus itself is far too insecure to carry the burden assigned to it.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...
Most scholars agree that the, so called, testimony of Josephus can NOT prove, one way or the other, the existence of an historical Jesus. When there is proof of forgery, I guess its up to individual to choose to continue to accept fragments of said forgery, of one's choosing, here and there, to be true. I, on the other hand, choose to throw out all of it, based on the fact it's not at all trustworthy testimony.
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
originally posted by: TzarChasm
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: TzarChasm
Obama being an alien is silly and can be easily proven not to be true. Bad comparison.
I don't see what is dubious about the existence of Jesus. That's not a silly notion whatsoever.
i can make just as many arguments for obama being an extraterretrial as you can make for jesus existing. or god for that matter.
You can make any argument you want, but there is more evidence to suggest Jesus existed than there is to suggest Obama is an alien. Hell, you can't even prove aliens exist, let alone that Obama is one of them.
God existing is a whole other matter and is irrelevant to the discussion.
originally posted by: TzarChasm
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
originally posted by: TzarChasm
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: TzarChasm
Obama being an alien is silly and can be easily proven not to be true. Bad comparison.
I don't see what is dubious about the existence of Jesus. That's not a silly notion whatsoever.
i can make just as many arguments for obama being an extraterretrial as you can make for jesus existing. or god for that matter.
You can make any argument you want, but there is more evidence to suggest Jesus existed than there is to suggest Obama is an alien. Hell, you can't even prove aliens exist, let alone that Obama is one of them.
God existing is a whole other matter and is irrelevant to the discussion.
Oh? I thought jesus was god?
originally posted by: DeadSeraph
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DeadSeraph
Thus, even though Josephus may not have referred to Jesus, that does not necessarily imply that there was no historical Jesus. While a reference to Jesus would help substantiate the historicity of Jesus, it, by the same token, wouldn't necessarily settle the question outright, especially when the supposed reference is the subject of such severe textual difficulties. While the appeal to the text of Josephus is often made in the attempt to secure the place of Jesus as a figure in history, the text of Josephus itself is far too insecure to carry the burden assigned to it.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...
Most scholars agree that the, so called, testimony of Josephus can NOT prove, one way or the other, the existence of an historical Jesus. When there is proof of forgery, I guess its up to individual to choose to continue to accept fragments of said forgery, of one's choosing, here and there, to be true. I, on the other hand, choose to throw out all of it, based on the fact it's not at all trustworthy testimony.
The historicity of Jesus is not predicated on Josephus writings alone, but on the entire body of evidence (which includes Josephus writings).
The sheer volume of new testament manuscripts,
The earliest writings of Paul (which contained historically accurate information that was vindicated almost 2000 years later via archaeological finds), Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the younger and his correspondence with Emperor Trajan, The Talmud, and even Celsus (one of Christianity's greatest roman critics who not once levels the accusation that Jesus never existed), as well as other archaeological finds.
You yourself are legendary around here for not only shifting goal posts on the subject, but even your position. I've seen you argue against a historical Jesus, and then claim that he likely existed, but not the way the new testament portrayed him, and now, that he was a fictional characterture of a number of different real individuals.
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
originally posted by: Tangerine
originally posted by: sheepslayer247
You can make any argument you want, but there is more evidence to suggest Jesus existed than there is to suggest Obama is an alien. Hell, you can't even prove aliens exist, let alone that Obama is one of them.
Zero is not more than zero.
There is much evidence to suggest he existed. Please do some research. There are writings, other than Josephus and Tacitus, that is available.
And your point of contemporaneous documentation has already been addressed and is incorrect. If we only held certain things to be true if there was first hand information, much of history would be considered false or made-up.
originally posted by: DeadSeraph
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DeadSeraph
Thus, even though Josephus may not have referred to Jesus, that does not necessarily imply that there was no historical Jesus. While a reference to Jesus would help substantiate the historicity of Jesus, it, by the same token, wouldn't necessarily settle the question outright, especially when the supposed reference is the subject of such severe textual difficulties. While the appeal to the text of Josephus is often made in the attempt to secure the place of Jesus as a figure in history, the text of Josephus itself is far too insecure to carry the burden assigned to it.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...
Most scholars agree that the, so called, testimony of Josephus can NOT prove, one way or the other, the existence of an historical Jesus. When there is proof of forgery, I guess its up to individual to choose to continue to accept fragments of said forgery, of one's choosing, here and there, to be true. I, on the other hand, choose to throw out all of it, based on the fact it's not at all trustworthy testimony.
The historicity of Jesus is not predicated on Josephus writings alone, but on the entire body of evidence (which includes Josephus writings).
The sheer volume of new testament manuscripts, The earliest writings of Paul (which contained historically accurate information that was vindicated almost 2000 years later via archaeological finds), Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the younger and his correspondence with Emperor Trajan, The Talmud, and even Celsus (one of Christianity's greatest roman critics who not once levels the accusation that Jesus never existed), as well as other archaeological finds.