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This Country Just Abolished College Tuiton Fees

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posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 01:25 PM
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originally posted by: onequestion


Not understanding your intrinsic roll in the community is stupid period.


well i live in the real world, not a hippie commune with free love and where everyone shares all they have with the other members of the commune.

here in my real world community, i understand my role very well.

my role is to be a productive member of society....by that i mean working and taking care of my family. paying my bills while not expecting others to take the burden or bitching when i cant get it done.
my role is to take care my family, not yours.

maybe, just maybe if more people took on that same kind of role instead of complaining about making crap money and not being able to do anything about it we would actually be closer to that fantasy utopia you think you live in.

maybe, just maybe if every able bodies adult joined the work force(or got educated) instead of working for minimum wage and collecting assistance we would all be better off.

i know there are people that really do need help. medical disabilities..this or that. lots of reasons and i am not saying we should deny them.
fact is a LOT of people can work they just dont. a lot of people Can do better but they wont. i suppose there are loads of reasons.
i think laziness is very high on the list.

its not like i did anything special. my brother didnt do anything special. nor did my father before me or my grandfather before him. nor did the millions and millions of other adults....
we(they) just did what we had to do.

i think if more people actually took responsibility for themselves(and the people that depend on them) then we(society/the community) would be better off.

edit*

^^^the above is the real truth...imo


edit on 7-10-2014 by CardiffGiant because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 01:47 PM
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THis is the way to go. In the US, too. I am quite libertarian in my thinking, and am perfectly fine with each on their own. However, in a world where nations compete against each other financially, the smart thing for any government to do is empower its people to enrich itself (and its corporations). We don't do this in America, unfortunately.

My views on education tend to scare some folks, as they come across as strictly regimented and reminding you of a dystopian nightmare. But the bottom line is that we fail, on grand scales, to put our "aces in their places". People who are not suited in the least for the work they do, hating every minute of it, causing inefficiency and drain on more than overall productivity, but also support infrastructure (medical bills incurred by absent minded, loathsome employees, for example).

My sons both stood at the doorstep of manhood uncertain what they wanted to do, and how they were going to get there. I was the same way. It is a result of compounded ignorance: you just don't know whats available and can't decide to do something that you don't know is available).

We should at least reduce costs for education for those entering education for fields relating to fields they have aptitudes in. Folks who will make outstanding welders end up with free schooling on welding. Folks who should actually be doctors end up doing that. So on and so forth. Not a forced system, but a system that encourages you to be the best at what you can be, and allows you to choose to chase after dreams instead....if you are willing to work for it and pay for it. A sysstem that invests in itself and the people that comprise it.

Instead, we get a system where our children practice rote memorization for standardized testing, making our brightest learn to be as dim as our dimmest.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 02:43 PM
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originally posted by: CardiffGiant

originally posted by: haviahabia

You cannot grow or maintain society by cutting the wages of the majority of people who spend the money in the first place, that is contrary to the math.

So it is our concern that the best approach to help the health of our nation is to advocate better wages which ultimately translates to positive outcomes as these outcomes are classified by economists and sociologists.


i think the first step to the 'health of the nation' is for people to start pulling their own weight and do the best they can for themselves and their family.
better wages would be fantastic. better wages across the board....
i never advocated against better wages. not once


edit*
am i supposed to advocate for or feel bad for the able bodies people out there that do nothing to better their financial situation? i dont...i can tell you that right now.
the 30 something husband and father of 2 that slings hash at burger king for 8 bucks an hour and bitching about it...what is he doing to better his situation? what jobs has he applied for?
probably none because those jobs that i am talking about do not let you hang out on facebook all day while you toss fries and talk to your co workers.
i dont feel bad for them even a little bit.
i know not every person is in that situation but those are the people that i am talking about.



It seems like you have animosity towards the "30 something burger king employee". There are many many people who do work very hard, have several jobs and still struggle to survive, while going to school.

The problem with your perspective is that it reenforces the slide this country is experiencing. It used to be that a days labor could maintain several people in a family, as it is now, a days labor cannot support one person which is a drastic change that seems to pace the decline of America. It has been proven in study after study that Americans work longer hours and get paid less, this is the component that you do not examine based upon the "30 something burger king employee" scenario. You are quick to blame the character impoverished, but you don't seem to examine that wages and their decline are not set by employees and their lack of character, this is but one of many outlying circumstances that can examine.

The more pressing problem is that America is becoming a service nation and that these kinds of jobs are systematically replacing the jobs of days past. There are in fact, many locales where the Burger King type job is the only job available because the market is changing, globally. At this rate of decline, it could probably be surmised that many people will not be able to support themselves regardless of their work ethic simply because many will have to take service jobs as they will be the only option.

I believe that the health of America and the quality of life that we all experience can be shaped and fostered in one way or the other.

If it you step back, it should be clear to you that your perspective does not recognize that you will not prosper if your neighbors are all failing in mass. You wallet can only be replenished by the money from someone else's wallet and if they do not have money, you will systematically have less and less.

I wish you did not advocate for no one and nothing but the bleakest that reality has to offer where we are all monkey pressing the button because everyone else is doing it. When the other monkeys cease to have enough, they will turn on you, that is even more base than the base outlook you choose to apply to life. The only way we can fight this decline is by turning our backs on our less than simian inclinations.


edit on 7-10-2014 by haviahabia because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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But Germany doesn't have Oil and Gas, how can they afford these things.?? It's Also 80p for 90cl bottle of good Red Wine from Aldi...How come when we in the UK with all our Oil and Gas Reserves cant by a Bottle of Antifreeze for 80p.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 02:51 PM
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originally posted by: CardiffGiant

originally posted by: onequestion


Not understanding your intrinsic roll in the community is stupid period.


well i live in the real world, not a hippie commune with free love and where everyone shares all they have with the other members of the commune.

here in my real world community, i understand my role very well.

my role is to be a productive member of society....by that i mean working and taking care of my family. paying my bills while not expecting others to take the burden or bitching when i cant get it done.
my role is to take care my family, not yours.

maybe, just maybe if more people took on that same kind of role instead of complaining about making crap money and not being able to do anything about it we would actually be closer to that fantasy utopia you think you live in.

maybe, just maybe if every able bodies adult joined the work force(or got educated) instead of working for minimum wage and collecting assistance we would all be better off.

i know there are people that really do need help. medical disabilities..this or that. lots of reasons and i am not saying we should deny them.
fact is a LOT of people can work they just dont. a lot of people Can do better but they wont. i suppose there are loads of reasons.
i think laziness is very high on the list.

its not like i did anything special. my brother didnt do anything special. nor did my father before me or my grandfather before him. nor did the millions and millions of other adults....
we(they) just did what we had to do.

i think if more people actually took responsibility for themselves(and the people that depend on them) then we(society/the community) would be better off.

edit*

^^^the above is the real truth...imo



Ever thought that a better world is impeded specifically by people like you who actively work against improving things for all?

The people who set the bar low, keep the bar low, the problem is you are asleep while the elites keep lowering the bar.

The fact is, you could not use the computer you are using to post here on ATS without the work and dedication of thousands of people you do not know and will never know. It is easy to bring a 1800s perspective into modernity, but it wont make you the wiser.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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It's as simple as that Germany knows that without educated folks there cannot be a thriving economy. (So yes, this would also apply to immigrants since an educated immigrant will have better chances to get a real job as opposed to leeching off welfare due to being unemployed. This is also the reason that Germany needs/wants every immigrant to learn German. An immigrant who cannot even speak German, has no education etc. ...how should they ever get a job?

So yes, we have free education, but ULTIMATELY this is something which saves everyone's money. Because more people unemployed, uneducated, not being able to get a real job...will COST a society. Every unemployed or person on welfare will cost the taxpayer of course. Simple kindergarten math.

Fortunately money was never an issue in regards to education in Germany. Education should be a base RIGHT for everyone. Absolutely.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: onequestion

I am in industrial sales and the manufacturing base is far from dead.




Sheeeessshhh, one of the common cliche thrown about is that there is no manufacturing in the USA



Needless to say that isn't true while some types of manufacturing have shrunk others have grown.
edit on 7/10/14 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: Hanslune

Didn't the George W Bush administration make McDonald jobs manufacturing?



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 03:42 PM
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I believe it's planting a seed for a future growth !
When you can't go out and buy food you grow your own !
Forward thinking if you have the balls and tighten your belt until you can pick the fruits of your labour !
Really why have people taking out the pot when you should be paid to train !
Just makes economic sense ! Pffft!



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 04:07 PM
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originally posted by: LDragonFire
Didn't the George W Bush administration make McDonald jobs manufacturing?


No, that is an urban legend.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: Hanslune

It is easier for the Unions to scapegoat China than to admit that they have allowed them and their members to become bloated, underproducers when compared to the more hungry (and more motivated) third world worker.

So manufacturing jobs where the union held the industry by the throat have suffered, while those manufacturing jobs where unions are less prevalent (and demanding) have seen offshoring reduced.



posted on Oct, 7 2014 @ 11:03 PM
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I just took a look at CNC programming salaries after this thread, I'm kind of surprised really given how simple it is to do. Then again that job still doesn't even put you into the top 50% though it is borderline.

Anyways I think there's some truth to the concept that everyone in the US is fascinated with being the manager. No one wants to be the producer anymore instead they want to tell the person who is making things happen what to do. That mentality has come about due to the rising income inequality, management simply makes way more than what those below them make so there's no appeal in holding the lower position.

If the pay scale were a bit more level people would be more incentivized to hold the jobs that produce provided they could find one in the first place.



posted on Oct, 8 2014 @ 07:10 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
Then again that job still doesn't even put you into the top 50% though it is borderline.


Why would someone who is just starting a new trade expect to be in the top 50% of wage earners?



posted on Oct, 8 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
I just took a look at CNC programming salaries after this thread, I'm kind of surprised really given how simple it is to do. Then again that job still doesn't even put you into the top 50% though it is borderline.

.


now take a look at cmm.
i wouldnt say cnc programming is easy but its not the hardest thing. writing a program is one thing but writing an efficient program is something else.
when youre in a job shop its all about production and time.
there is more to it than just writing a program and then letting your operator run it.
you need/should be able to do things on the fly....

now since it is fairly easy and you can get into that relatively easy with little or no experience, why dont people jump all over it? my city and the surrounding area has cnc operator/programming jobs open all the time...
wouldnt you rather get into a job where you can make some decent cash?

youre not going to walk onto a programming job with no experience. youre going to have to start in the shop operating a machine. a press or something...even that is going to pay more than fast food. before you know it, if you show up and are not a moron you will be operating the cnc....they need people to do it.
from there if you want to program you are going to have to take some of it on yourself....

when i first started running the cnc i knew nothing about it...went to a few classes and when i got back to the shop and started running it i just paid attention...
when i called up a program i would watch it run through each line of code instead of watching my part turn(after i made sure it wouldnt crash out)...
i copied the programs we had written onto a memory stick and downloaded a simulator on my home laptop. i would run them through it(its like running graphics on the cnc)..then i started editing the existing programs at home and once i ran them through my laptop i brought them to work and ran it through graphics, then i used my program to turn parts. i shaved a little bit of time off.

my point is that it is possible...

haviababla said this

It seems like you have animosity towards the "30 something burger king employee". There are many many people who do work very hard, have several jobs and still struggle to survive, while going to school.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

no animosity at all. i said fast food work is hard. so hard in fact i would rather be in a shop. food service will wear you out.
also, i know there are people who are working fast food and going to school and yadda yadda. i have said several times i am not talking about them.
i was giving more specific examples. the people that work ONE part time fast food job and complain about being broke while taking assistance even though they are perfectly able to work.
i said that about 3 times....

as far as people only wanting to be management....i saw a lot of that at the foundry. i always wanted to climb the ladder a bit but never had any thoughts of being 'upper management'.
i probably could have been the lab supervisor if i stayed in there and that would have been cool.
i ran the inspection department off and on for various internal reasons and that was ok...there were only 11 of us though
i never wanted all that responsibility to be honest.......being the boss of 20/50/100 people didnt really interest me.

im more of a grease monkey..i always felt more comfortable in the shop, getting dirty.
when i filled in and ran inspection i had to go to the quality meetings and the gemba walk with all the higher ups and i was not comfortable.

just like someone said somewhere along the way people started wanting to be management i think somewhere along the way people stopped doing for themselves and started wanting others to do it for them.

just my opinions. simply put i have seen plenty of evidence and situations that show it is very possible to get into a decent job making decent money with little or no experience or education. you just have to get after it.



posted on Oct, 8 2014 @ 08:11 AM
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originally posted by: haviahabia

, as it is now, a days labor cannot support one person


There are in fact, many locales where the Burger King type job is the only job available


I wish you did not advocate for no one and nothing but the bleakest that reality has to offer where we are all monkey pressing the button because everyone else is doing it.



a days labor can support one person. a days labor can support your family. jut not a days labor in a fast food joint.

i could see in certain places burger king being the only job available...i said that in an earlier post....im sure there are places like that but i am not talking about that. i said that as well. i am talking about all the zillioins of places where there are other jobs to be had.

by monkeys pressing buttons do you mean factory workers?
i dont get that. it is hard, respectable work that allows people to do well and support their family. there is nothing wrong with that.
i dont know what world you and others live in...some of you seem to have this fantasy idea of how things should be..the reality of the situation is that is not the way things are.

aaah, well. nothing more to add i suppose.
all i really wanted to do was make a point about manufacturing still being an option



posted on Oct, 8 2014 @ 12:29 PM
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originally posted by: CardiffGiant
now take a look at cmm.
i wouldnt say cnc programming is easy but its not the hardest thing. writing a program is one thing but writing an efficient program is something else.
when youre in a job shop its all about production and time.
there is more to it than just writing a program and then letting your operator run it.
you need/should be able to do things on the fly....

now since it is fairly easy and you can get into that relatively easy with little or no experience, why dont people jump all over it? my city and the surrounding area has cnc operator/programming jobs open all the time...
wouldnt you rather get into a job where you can make some decent cash?


I can't really comment on the difficulty other than it seems easy for me. I've never done it just did some reading up on it real fast and it's well within my skillset. It's not what I would want to do for a job but it still surprised me as I don't really associate myself with workshop type skills. I have a lot of experience with similar tasks using certain techniques in 3d modeling, more so with AutoCad than Maya.

Why I don't do it? I'm in school so that I can one day do my dream job and can't really commit to a full time job. If I needed a job it's something I could look for, there's even a few positions in my area apparently. It's not what I want to do though. I get my manufacturing kick these days from selling objects on shapeways as a way to retain my modeling skills (I've always planned on 3d printing/rapid prototyping as one of my backup careers).


youre not going to walk onto a programming job with no experience. youre going to have to start in the shop operating a machine. a press or something...even that is going to pay more than fast food. before you know it, if you show up and are not a moron you will be operating the cnc....they need people to do it.
from there if you want to program you are going to have to take some of it on yourself....


It has been my experience that jobs these days want ridiculous requirements. Using myself for example I work as an intern at an engineering company. The requirements for the internship are already having a degree, working on another degree, and it's minimum wage. My stepsister graduated from Berkley in 2008 with a Bachelors then in 2010 from Oxford with a Masters both 4.0. For the past 4 years she has been working an unpaid internship for a company with the promise that after 5 years she can have an entry level position.

The hoops people have to jump through these days for a job are absolutely absurd. Making jobs like a McDonalds worker have a more competitive salary will help reduce this underclass.


as far as people only wanting to be management....i saw a lot of that at the foundry. i always wanted to climb the ladder a bit but never had any thoughts of being 'upper management'.
i probably could have been the lab supervisor if i stayed in there and that would have been cool.
i ran the inspection department off and on for various internal reasons and that was ok...there were only 11 of us though
i never wanted all that responsibility to be honest.......being the boss of 20/50/100 people didnt really interest me.


I would be lying if I said I didn't want to be management, but I want to be management only so much as I need to be in order to run my own company. I would much prefer to be producing things. Being a computer person I guess I see myself as wanting to be closer to Steve Wozniak than Steve Jobs or gaming (my field) being John Carmack instead of Sid Meier.


just like someone said somewhere along the way people started wanting to be management i think somewhere along the way people stopped doing for themselves and started wanting others to do it for them.


I wrote that before, and I really think it has to do with who we reward in society. Take a shop business, most of the reward for building something goes to the owner who is typically management than to the guy who actually put the item together. People follow the money and in my opinion we over value intellecual property and contributions these days (not to say these aren't important... I just think the physical item has more value)


just my opinions. simply put i have seen plenty of evidence and situations that show it is very possible to get into a decent job making decent money with little or no experience or education. you just have to get after it.


A lot of this really depends on the area. I for example am tied to my current school for another two years (it's high quality and inexpensive, which makes it a good choice) but the area it's in is quite poor. Our median wage is 12k/year which isn't even full time minimum wage.


originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Aazadan
Then again that job still doesn't even put you into the top 50% though it is borderline.


Why would someone who is just starting a new trade expect to be in the top 50% of wage earners?


I was using glassdoor average salaries. Which is primarily made up of people who are established, not beginners.
edit on 8-10-2014 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

your post made me think of another job within the industry that pays well...

pattern making.
if you can get into a pattern shop making patterns/molds then you'll be getting paid.

another thing about the cnc/cmm/material science/six sigma...

these are all jobs(or qualifications that help to land the job) in a manufacturing industry that are not really associated with 'hard labor'.
obviously it is labor but nothing like the chipping and grinding or working in the pits.

azadan, it might be real easy for you...sounds like you already have skills..i just meant once youre in the shop and on the clock youre doing more than just writing a program and kicking your feet up. changes to the machine off the fly. writing a program from a blue print or specs....
thats the part most people struggle with....taking it from the paper to the code.

i just use my experience and area as example....these manufacturing jobs and entry level machine operator jobs are there to be had with little to no experience. if youre dependable and do not have any felonies then those jobs are out there.

link to a local pattern shop

www.cascadepattern.com...

long money in pattern making...



posted on Oct, 9 2014 @ 08:16 AM
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originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
When those graduates have lousy educations obtained at universities that can send kids into the world with degrees in unemployment, I have a problem with paying for that. This has nothing to do with their pay after completing school, only what they have to offer the world after getting a free education.
Quite often, the best thing that post-secondary educations provides is an ability to think. Some political parties don't encourage an intelligent, educated, electorate. Go figure.



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