My very simplistic take on the "Roswell Incident"...

I don't know what happened that day or since after years of reading all the research and speculation, but I do know that the U.S. Army Air Corps recovered what was referred to as a Flying Disk when Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer, stated the disk was recovered on a ranch in the Roswell vicinity. Absolutely no way that Man released that report to the News wire without the one exception - It was true lol. The only nuclear force in the world and he is the intelligence officer at the time haha, no way he is telling that story unless it was absolutely true. What happened next and whether there was bodies and the tech was shared amongst defense contractors I don't know. However, a career Man would not at that time, release that press unless he was sure of it. And after all my years of reading all the information and speculation, I am sure that I will never know anymore about it because of the retraction.

Seems legit

originally posted by: vance
I don't know what happened that day or since after years of reading all the research and speculation, but I do know that the U.S. Army Air Corps recovered what was referred to as a Flying Disk when Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer, stated the disk was recovered on a ranch in the Roswell vicinity. Absolutely no way that Man released that report to the News wire without the one exception - It was true lol. The only nuclear force in the world and he is the intelligence officer at the time haha, no way he is telling that story unless it was absolutely true. What happened next and whether there was bodies and the tech was shared amongst defense contractors I don't know. However, a career Man would not at that time, release that press unless he was sure of it. And after all my years of reading all the information and speculation, I am sure that I will never know anymore about it because of the retraction.

No matter how much research and speculation you put yourself through regarding the Roswell event, you have to stay away from popular modern sources especially ALL of the books by popular authors 'cause they rely on believers to keep them going.

The bottom line is that no UFO crashed near Roswell nor anywhere else on earth. Stick to the ORIGINAL reports, ignoring the original newspaper news, and dig into the temper of the times and secret spying programs on the Russians.

Your best bet on getting the truth can be found in the book "Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe" by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus Books. If your mind is opened by the book's contents you'll be on your way to being a better thinker and be ready to catch flak from the untold numbers of conditioned believers who, as with religion, will kill you for being a heretic. Look into it and if you do, welcome to the light.

a reply to: vance

The only nuclear force in the world and he is the intelligence officer at the time haha, no way he is telling that story unless it was absolutely true.

Agreed. Not only the nuclear force but he was experienced with every airborne craft or weapon known. Lots of items captured from the Nazis, too.

And he would know of any operation Mogul and not have released a UFO story instead. Telling the world press "we have a UFO" would bring every photographer and spy the world over trying to sneak in to get a look at it.

The stuff going on at that place was secret. He would never purposely draw attention to it.

Jesse Marcel and his son both told the same story.....from their respective viewpoints.....
No way is it bull#.......I believe them 100%
What fell out of the sky, well, who can say?
But it wasn't ours....

Open Letter to the History Channel

History Channel
235 East 45th St.
New York, NY l0017
USA

December 21, 1999

Dear History Channel

As the nuclear physicist who began the civilian investigation of the Roswell Incident back in the 1970s, who has co-authored a book "Crash at Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident" and numerous papers about Roswell, and, of course, was the first to talk to many of the key witnesses (almost all of whom you somehow missed), I naturally viewed the subject program with great interest, especially since I was in Roswell on December 13... I must congratulate you on providing a Masterpiece of Misrepresentation. A splendid example of propaganda, excellent for teaching purposes . You demonstrated the primary rules such as selective choice of data, false reasoning, positive and negative name calling. You also demonstrated the 4 basic rules of UFO debunkery:

l. What the public doesn't know, we are not going to tell them

2. Don't bother us with the facts, our minds are made up.

3. If we can't attack the data, we will attack the people; it is much easier.

4. Do one's research by proclamation, rather than investigation. It is much easier and most people won't know the difference.

I have discussed the 2 Air Force reports in my enclosed papers "The Roswell Incident, the USAF, and the NY Times" (28 pages) and my Review of "The Roswell Report: Case Closed." You seem to have blindly accepted any comment from a noisy negativist and didn't bother with the work of professionals such as myself. Let me give some specific examples, although I found that I can't get a copy of the show for 4-6 weeks to give precise quotes.

A. How do you dare to show a small heap of wreckage? In my first conversation with Major Jesse Marcel, the Intelligence Officer for the 509th Composite Bomb Group, in 1978, he described wreckage strewn out over an area 3/4 of a mile long. The Roswell Daily Record cover-up article of July 9, 1947, stated the wreckage covered an area 200 yards in diameter. Your depiction was at most a few yards across. If that is all there had been, rancher Mack Brazel would have taken it all in his truck to the Sheriff' soffice and there would have been no reason for Major Marcel and Captain Cavitt to have followed him on the long rough journey back to the Foster Ranch operated by Mack.. You have blindly accepted a fairly recent statement by Cavitt to Colonel Weaver about him recalling it was just a balloon covering an area only 20' square and easily fitting in one vehicle. Apparently Cavitt wasn't told it was supposed to be a MOGUL balloon which included 23 standard helium filled neoprene balloons (at 20' intervals) and a whole bunch of radar reflectors, sonobuoys, ballast tanks, etc all strung together. Some small pile. Of course Cavitt hadn't remembered that simple fact when asked many times by many people for the previous 15 years, even denying that he had been on the base at the time.

B. Dr. C.B. Moore, whom I have met, himself strongly claimed that neoprene out in the sun for weeks would be totally degraded. Did he forget that little detail?. A June 4 or June 14 launching could not possibly have survived so well until early July. You also neglected to mention that many of the July 8 newspaper articles claimed the wreckage was found "last week". But Rancher Brazel had been in the area just a few days earlier and could never have left that mountain of garbage where the sheep could ingest it. Mack had of course previously found 2 balloons. The newspaper of July 9 quotes him saying he was sure what he found wasn't any weather balloon. Colonel Weaver left this quote out of his recital of the article.

C. Too bad you couldn't mention that the 509th was the most elite military group in the world with hand picked officers and men, and high security. They had dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the two tested in the Pacific in July, 1946, in Operation Crossroads. You noted the July 9, 1947, press release and then stated nobody knows why it was issued. Why didn't you bother to ask Walter Haut who issued it? He still lives in Roswell and has been interviewed hundreds of times. His story hasn't changed since I first spoke to him more than 20 years ago. Incidentally he also had been a bombardier on 30 raids over Japan and dropped the instrument package over one of the Crossroads tests.. He issued the press release because he was ordered to do so by Colonel William Blanchard, Commander of the 509th and of Roswell Army Air Field. Before suggesting he must have been incompetent, as have some who haven't done their homework, I should add he was a member of the West Point All Star class of 1938, became a 4 star general by the time he was 48 and was Vice Chief of Staff of the USAF when he died of a massive heart attack at the Pentagon in 1966. There was, of course, a lengthy obituary in the NY times. Doesn't sound much like he was thought to be incompetent, does it?

It was stated that Blanchard retracted the press release 4 hours later. This is nonsense. Blanchard's boss, General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth, Texas, (Blanchard was in Roswell) issued a new story after being informed by his Chief of Staff, Colonel Thomas J. DuBose that Ramey's boss, General Clements McMullen, had given orders to cover up the story. I heard that first hand from retired General DuBose whose testimony is available on film. He was a West Pointer as well and had 18,000 hours as a pilot and set up the USAF Search and Rescue command. No slouch at all.

D. Why do you show only the Roswell Daily Record? After all there were front page headline stories in the Chicago Daily News, the Sacramento Bee, the Los Angeles Herald Express, the Spokane Chronicle, etc all evening papers for July 8. The West coast papers in general had done a lot of checking before publishing detailed articles. Too bad you did none.

E. Where did the comment come from about bodies cold to touch?

F. The notion that Pilot Kittinger was the red haired officer is more absurdity. After all he wasn't at the Roswell hospital until 1959. I was the first to hear 2 independent stories about a nasty red haired officer and a black seargeant.. Both events taking place in 1947. Has the air force invented time travel? There is no other way to get crash test dummies, all of whom were the height and weight of pilots, back to 1947 from 1953 at the earliest or to get Kittinger to the Roswell hospital in 1947. This is flat out fiction.

G. Why did you not talk to others still alive who had first hand involvement such as Jesse A. Marcel Jr. , a medical doctor, who handled wreckage, has served on military aircraft accident investigative teams and was a pilot? Or Loretta Proctor, neighbor of Mack Brazel, who handled wreckage? or Mack Brazel's son Bill who found strange (thin strong memory material) wreckage out in the pasture? How about the sheriff's two daughters? All this testimony has been readily available for many years.

H. One of the first things Major Jesse Marcel told me is that there was nothing conventional to be found on the debris field.. No wires, no vacuum tubes, no rivets. He was very familiar with aircraft and aircraft wreckage and balloons and radar reflectors and rockets. The notion that he wouldn't have recognized balloon wreckage or radar reflectors is frankly absurd.. You are also implying that Blanchard, who had also served in the Pacific, would have ordered the press release and the B-29 flight with the wreckage brought back from the ranch and Marcel to Fort Worth is equally absurd, if all there was was totally conventional stuff. You know of any materials such as the I-beam like pieces with strange symbols that couldn't be cut, burned, or broken? Or memory metals that were like foil but couldn't be cut and, when folded over and over, would unfold on their own? Why couldn't the USAF find any of that toymaker tape in the pictures taken in Ramey's office?

I. Brazel didn't make his discovery on July 5. It was earlier. He did go to the store-pool hall in Corona on the 5 th which is when, not having electricity or a phone or a radio, he first heard about all the saucer sightings and a reward and was told he ought to go to the Sherif in Roswell which he did on the 6th NOT on the 7th as you claimed.. You made it sound as though Sherif Wilcox looked in the phone book to find a nearby Air Base. There was a standing arrangement that anything that might effect the military would be reported to Roswell Army Air Field. There was no other base in the area.

J. I have met with Dr. Schirmer, Dr. Moore, Mr. Gildenberg. They haven't investigated the case. They have made proclamation after proclamation about 2nd and third hand testimony. Why use the term "conspiracy theorist" so many times without ever justifying it? Who are these theorists? I began the investigation and have always provided evidence for the claims that I make which is more than can be said for your trio. They have actually created a conspiracy theory namely that a bunch of stupid UFO researchers and lying witnesses have created a fantastic story for fun and profit. This, of course, ignores the fact that loads of testimony was obtained by us serious researchers long before the cameras started rolling. My phone bills used to run several hundred dollars a month.

By the way, I do know something about security having worked as a nuclear physicist on a wide variety of highly classified advanced nuclear and space system programs for such companies as General Electric, General Motors, Westinghouse, TRW Systems, McDonnell Douglas, and Aerojet General Nucleonics.. I have also been to 19 different government document archives.

Just how much experience with security has Dr. Schirmer had?

K. What was this nonsense about a 1956 plane crash somehow confusing Glenn Dennis about bodies at the base in 1947? A few years ago I went with Glenn to the Ballard funeral home. We reviewed records with full permission of the operator there who obviously respected Glenn. There were a number of military plane crashes for which he handled the bodies even after bad fires. That was his job. No possible way such a crash could have confused him. Yet another false conspiracy theory from your trio.

L. At one point early on in the program the word UFO was used. Sorry. It was not used until after 1951. Several times when showing balloons and talking about Mogul you showed tear drop shaped polyethylene balloons. Round standard Neoprene balloons were used for all MOGUL launches before July ... The same kind that Mack had retrieved. And that rapidly diisintegrate in the sun.

In summary then, the History Channel has presented myth and propaganda in the guise of truth.

You have supplied misrepresentation instead of investigative journalism. You should be ashamed and should apologize to your audience. It seems to me you have also violated FCC rules with regard to fairness, honesty, and accuracy in so doing. My colleagues and I would be happy to debate your trio of amateurs any time. I would suggest that they do their homework first.

Cordially,

Stanton T. Friedman

That was an open letter by Stanton Friedman addressed to the History Channel after they aired a joke of a documentary about the subject, he has fully researched the Roswell incident.

I believe him more so than any other person.

I think it was a piece of Nazi Technology that we were testing personally.

whoa, vance from cocoa city, florida? long-time member?

i'd love to hear your thoughts on this thread:

The Gulf Breeze Saga

originally posted by: vance
However, a career Man would not at that time, release that press unless he was sure of it.

Or unless he was ordered to for some reason.

The tech was terrestrial in nature and classified about as high as it goes. It crashed. It was apparently decided to initiate a social engineering stress test. Primary objective to keep snoops away from military projects and looking to space and make their adversaries think they may have something more than they claim. Enter the UFO meme, Richard Dotty disinfo agent, Paul Bennowictz and the Aviary.

The response to reports it was alien in nature provided enough social engineering data for geeks to disseminate for decades to come.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Exactly. One can even deduce the nature of the technology based on the type of military base it was and the strategic and technological priorities of the day. Why does no "investigator" ever seem to ask themselves: "What was classified so secret in those days that the government would rather the public believe that little green men from outer space crashed on a farm than know the truth?"

Hint: it has nothing to do with Nikola Tesla and everything to do with the vast size of the Soviet Union.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

My problem with what you've laid out there is the fact that it wasn't a big deal until it resurfaced in the late 70s/early 80s. Doty and company didn't come along until much later and in response to Paul Bennewitz. We can see the immediate effects of their disinformation/propaganda campaign on him as well as on ufology and ultimately the culture at large. Again, to my knowledge, Roswell didn't really catch on as a story until decades later. Some of that (the MJ-12 docs) may have Doty's fingerprints on it.

If Roswell was a social engineering scheme in the 40s, it failed for about 35 years.

a reply to: Vrill

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head.

The U.S. military got far more than a few chemical rockets out of Operation Paperclip.

a reply to: Jeremy_Vaeni

If Roswell was a social engineering scheme in the 40s, it failed for about 35 years.

No, the Roswell incident was a genuine accident which an officer tried to cover up with a poor choice of explanations. The experiment began thirty years later.

originally posted by: Jeremy_Vaeni
a reply to: Rosinitiate

My problem with what you've laid out there is the fact that it wasn't a big deal until it resurfaced in the late 70s/early 80s. Doty and company didn't come along until much later and in response to Paul Bennewitz. We can see the immediate effects of their disinformation/propaganda campaign on him as well as on ufology and ultimately the culture at large. Again, to my knowledge, Roswell didn't really catch on as a story until decades later. Some of that (the MJ-12 docs) may have Doty's fingerprints on it.

If Roswell was a social engineering scheme in the 40s, it failed for about 35 years.

Hence my point of disseminating data for decades. I see the Roswell Mass Hysteria as unintended opportunity, maybe not really realized at the time or didn't know what to do with such data. Some 30 years later you begin to see the reemergence of aliens and UFO's alla Dulce, Alien Grey and Cattle Mutilations, Aviary, etc. All of which ties directly into the US military industrial apparatus. You can get a glimpse of this line of thinking in regards to psychological warfare via some of Mike Aquino's own posts here on ATS or his book Mind War. Take special note to his role in the 80's while enlisted and things such as the Oprah Winfrey show with Mike Aquino (more social engineering).

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Jeremy_Vaeni

If Roswell was a social engineering scheme in the 40s, it failed for about 35 years.

No, the Roswell incident was a genuine accident which an officer tried to cover up with a poor choice of explanations. The experiment began thirty years later.

Oh, well, see that, I can believe.

In fact, need we look much further than Mac Brazel's interview here?

www.roswellfiles.com...

Reading it with no prejudice in mind except knowing the natural faults of people, I read this as follows:

Mac finds debris. Probably not the type of weather balloon he's used to, having found 2 on his ranch before--but a balloon nonetheless. Because he didn't recognize it he told people he thought it might be one of those flying disks he'd been hearing about. And this is where I pause to realize something I hadn't before... he never associated "flying disks" with "spaceships." That definition came later.

Finding a "flying disk" for him has no more urgency about it than finding a "weather balloon," which is why he ignored it for nearly a month. He would not have ignored a crashed spaceship for weeks!

He eventually reports it and the military press release goes out, which is essentially parroting what he said: that he may have found a flying disk. They use his shorthand because it doesn't mean "aliens." It doesn't mean ANYTHING. They're just repeating what he said until the record scratches and the world goes, "Say what?"

Then there's a media frenzy until the military folks role out the weather balloon photo op telling the world it was a misunderstanding. It was, but they're still lying because the weather balloon they're showing isn't the type of secret balloon that crashed. Why is that so hard to believe?

There it rests as no big deal until the ufological cottage industry--scouring history for anything that looks like the now-defined "aliens"--gets its greedy hands on the story again decades later.

a reply to: Jeremy_Vaeni

Exactly! But try not to get any more specific as it is still a genuine national security issue!

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Jeremy_Vaeni

Exactly! But try not to get any more specific as it is still a genuine national security issue!

See? We could have saved Stan Friedman that whole "ask me anything" thread. Or career.

But to your point here... let's get specific for a sec and then I promise I'll call it a night. What if they were covering up 2 things: a top secret balloon, which wouldn't be worth covering up today, AND flying disks?

What do we know about them? Well, we know they don't exist. We know this because "disk" is short for "saucer" and "flying saucer" was a truncated version of Kenneth Arnold's description of how the not-saucer-things he saw maneuvered. We have a clever reporter to thank for that.

What if what Arnold saw IS still worth covering up today? And the reason could be as terrestrial as it was experimental technology created by Nazi scientists smuggled into the U.S.?

What if that lazy mistake of parroting Mac Brazel in the military press release was a huge OOPS moments not just because something secret crashed, but because it accidentally validated "flying saucers," which drew attention back to a Nazi/U.S. collaboration?

The thing is it would have been really very easy to have covered up a crash of something "secret". The press only got wind of something because of the subsequent press release. No press release nothing to see here.

It is also inconceivable that something that "secret" did crash and that the Roswell Army Airfield were unaware of it themselves or had not been contacted by the instigators.

I mean whoever launched this "secret" experiment you assume would have wanted to track it, and you assume that they then lost track, and then you have to assume that they just gave up on it. Ok SNAFU and all that but they had plenty of time to follow up before it was found and the subsequent press release. If it was that "secret" bases in the relevant area would have been informed so it could be retrieved.

So either the military -

a. didn't know what it was, at least initially, and tried to gain some time to identify it by calling it a flying disk
b. knew what it was and issued a press release calling it a flying disk to cover something else up
c. thought it was a flying disk and issued a press release to that effect
d. were laughably incompetent

The Commander of RAAF would have been aware of the interest the press release would generate and is not going to order a release like that simply based on Brazel's say so, especially when the AF were in possession of some of the wreckage themselves at that point.

Therefore the strange thing is that c seems to make the most sense.

Doesn't help to identify what it actually was mind.