"Why call me Lord, Lord, but don't do as I say?" (Luke 6:46) - Your Actions are important.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

that would be a good Christian answer...

but not my own...

IF Jesus wouldn't even consider himself to be good, who among us isn't a little wicked?

a reply to: Akragon

That's the point of my question about being lukewarm. Jesus layed down his life for us but then lets say a wicked friend gets you and him in jeopardy. Is okay to lay down your life for him?

You cannot turn back to look at Sodom and Gomorrah so I suspect you shouldn't hold your friends hand until the end, trying to drag him from Gomorrah, if he's not righteous at the time of his end. (Same with the sword causing division, dusting your feet, fleeing from the roof, and the field to the mountains, Noah building the boat, etc)

Somewhere in all the verses we've quoted there is a line of what's okay and what's not, but it's not clear to me.

a reply to: Bleeeeep
The idea of being "lukewarm" is about belief...

there is a point where one finds "belief" is no longer necessary...

Said person knows

Everything is written within the heart of man...

One might follow some to the gates of "hell"... others will not...

The question is... where is YOUR line

And when do you cross it

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Akragon

Ah thanks.... and one more question with the same tone:

Revelation 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

So let's suppose a coin has three sides: heads, tails, and the edge. And the sides are hot and cold, and the edge is lukewarm. So then, lets say one side is righteous, one side is wicked, and the edge is "lukewarm".

Now, if you love everyone, even the wicked, does that make you lukewarm or does that make you right for loving even the wicked people? What if Jesus and Satan were having a fight, and you chose not to hit anyone? Does that make you wrong, right, or lukewarm?

You see my point? It is the unconditional love thing.

You cannot be on the edge of the coin because any side that is not the right side is the wrong side.

What is the extent of love? And would the full extent make you right, wrong, or lukewarm?

Even if you cannot love the action of a person or the current awareness of that being, you can love the potential of the soul and what it will be. The things you are upset about in the other person can be a phase that said person will grow out of.

Namaste (I bow to the divine in you)

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: TheProphetMark

Is love then only situational? Only occuring when someone could be judged, but is not?

Can you define it by what it is, and not by what it's not?

I'd like an easy answer if you got one -- preferably something that's not metaphorical -- something that can be applied to any situation.

Thanks.

And I do not mean to sound sarcastic or rude. I am genuinely asking: Can anyone explain the kind of love Jesus and them were talking about? I'm being serious. Anyone?

Divine Love is a difficult subject to conceptualize due to it's non-material experiential factors (e.g emotions) but if one is willing to open their mind enough to "imagine" or "visualize" the non-material experience whilst simultaneously absorbing the conceptualization (i.e reason/logic of or pertaining to) one may then necessarily comprehend what it is and therefore what it isn't.

Just to make it clear I say Divine Love because it is beyond the love that the human body consciously experiences.

Now before I explain my interpretation of the love Jesus spoke of I'd like to make it clear that my knowledge is based on over a decade of religious and spiritual studies as well as disciplined conduct in accordance with (spiritual and material) universal laws (e.g the ten commandments, the 8-fold path, cause and effect, law of attraction and repulsion, etc). Based on personal experiences and consciously aware interactions I have had and continue to have with the "Universal Benefactor" I have come to the following, for lack of a better term, "conclusions."

Firstly to understand what Jesus meant one must comprehend what Jesus was. He was a man just like you and I born in a period of conflict and poverty. As we are told in the Gospels Jesus spent his adolescence acquiring as much wisdom as possible as to better understand the human condition of his era. Much of his experiences were not recorded, or at the least haven't been discovered yet, but, from what is known he studied most if not all of the major religions and mysteries that were knowable in that time period. After many years passed Jesus returned to his people displaying miraculous abilities, prophecy, and wisdom. Then for 3 years he spread his words until his prophetic death.

Now, we must never be so foolish as to judge someone elses wisdom based on our own level of conscious awareness because undoubtedly the one judging has not experienced the wisdom first hand and therefore may misinterpret the communication. Also, it would be catastrophic to ones own understanding if the very fact that Jesus did not write the Gospels himself slips our mind, but left the recording in the hands of his apostles. The implications of this matter must be taken into consideration.

But, undoubtedly there is a key to understanding Jesus...and that key has been overlooked by billions of people since he walked this Earth. The key is not obvious, it is hidden in the same way a magician uses peoples own eyes to distract them from the truth of their magic, which if people knew the trick they wouldn't be baffled.Which is why the key to understanding resides in his actions, not his words. His words were merely an external reflection of what he had become internally. It will come to make sense to someone who understands the human mind, their own mind, and that is the very purpose of speaking in parables. Those who are too caught up in the body (sensual pleasure, desires, selfishness, etc) are controlled by the most animalistic desires of the human experience and as a result are incapable of grasping intellectual/spiritual/non-sense related wisdom. You can't comprehend higher knowledge when your mind is enslaved to fulfilling the desires of your body just as you can't comprehend loving someone who shows no loyalty nor concern for you.

Now what do I mean by the key is in his actions? I mean it as it is said. Jesus' story was not recorded to be some story to make people be nicer to one another, but it can easily be taken that way when it is read without consideration of the implications. Jesus himself stated he did not come to make peace on Earth but to turn son against father, mother against daughter, etc. Why would he say that? Because he was aware that people would ignorantly take his words for face value instead of comprehending the intrinsic meaning behind it all and therefore concluded that his teachings would be the cause of unrest amongst humanity. Interestingly if taken at face value it seems that Jesus contradicted the love of the lord by spreading unrest, but again that's only true if one fails to comprehend the implications.

This is why I will tell you right now that the only way to comprehend Jesus and the Divine Love of God is to become like-Jesus. How can someone become like Jesus? His teachings surely don't give instructions on how to achieve the state of awareness that he achieved, that we know for sure. So what the heck Jesus? Did you merely play on human gullibility or did you see something within all of us that would, when we are spiritually ready, blossom into enlightenment? The answer is he did leave us perfectly comprehensible instructions on how to achieve Son/Daughter of God Awareness and those instructions are his very life story.

When one comes to comprehend the implications of this truth and begins to follow in Jesus' footsteps that person will transform from the inside out and trust me, that person experiences things that cannot even be communicated with words. These experiences cause the individual to go through stages of mental breakdowns followed by a complete restructuring of ones experience within the body and the external world that it's apart of. The goal is to break your minds habitual existence and to literally be reborn (not physically but consciously/mentally) into the true state of awareness, which is God Awareness.

Contemplate this if you wish to attempt to understand Divine Love:

You have a creative mind and one day one of your friends tells you they found the most beautiful painting in the world so you go to see it, it is awe inspiring and you simply are astonished that someone was capable of making such a perfect, beautiful painting. This is symbolic of the human being viewing the world from a basic awareness, consciousness filtered by ignorance.

Now what if you suddenly experienced that you were the one who painted that picture, and that everyone and everything that has ever existed was just a clone (not in looks but in purpose) of you that assisted in creating that beautiful piece of art? Just how much of that awe would turn into a warm blissful feeling if not all of it? This is symbolic of the human being viewing the world from a higher awareness, consciousness unaffected by desires of the body and mind.

Now what if you experienced that you, yourself, not as a body but as the awareness that knows you are in a body on a planet was all that has ever truly existed? Your awareness is who you are, it is aware when you go from being sad to mad to happy to hungry, etc, yet it is never colored by the experiences, the mind is but that is merely just another sense in which this awareness experiences but is not changed by it. When you come to experience this as truth, not just to intellectualize it, you will experience God as well as Divine Love.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
Now, if you love everyone, even the wicked, does that make you lukewarm or does that make you right for loving even the wicked people? What if Jesus and Satan were having a fight, and you chose not to hit anyone? Does that make you wrong, right, or lukewarm?

You see my point? It is the unconditional love thing.

You cannot be on the edge of the coin because any side that is not the right side is the wrong side.

What is the extent of love? And would the full extent make you right, wrong, or lukewarm?

If you are kind to the unthankful and evil, then you are being merciful as God is merciful:

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." - Luke 6:35-36

This answers whether or not we are supposed to be "hitting" anyone:

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew 5:39

Many people are lukewarm to this teaching because they are so used to fighting back instead of breaking out of that cycle in order to forgive, let things go, and continue loving.

a reply to: arpgme

I think that Jesus is trying to tell us not give into temptation -- that if we allow negativity to make us react negatively, then we suffer the sin.

I think that when he says be merciful like Father or that Father sends the rain and sun to the just and unjust alike, he is saying to stay diligent, and remain just - to not become wicked, or to not let wickedness corrupt you.

So, in effect, Jesus wasn't preaching to spare the wicked, but for us to not become wicked ourselves.

The good side of the coin then, is to not allow evil to corrupt you - no matter what. And that is how I feel emotionally. I am not even mad at Satan. I understand what pride does - I can sense it almost as if it were a solid object that, though inside me, it's separate from me - and so I sort of pitty him because of the pride he must have.

But to feel like that, to have sympathy for the devil, it almost feels like blasphemy. And it gives me mixed emotions, because for whatever reason, it seems like I should be angry or ready to go beast mode on somebody like him - but I'm not and it feels like I might be on the wrong side of the coin...

But then again:
Deuteronomy 1:17
Deuteronomy 10:17
Deuteronomy 16:19
2 Samuel 14:14
Job 34:19
Matthew 22:16
Mark 12:14
Galatians 2:6

...God doesn't seem to care about the person either, not with respect to who they are - it is their justness that he worries about.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

"Satan" means "adversary" and an adversary is just an opponent, an enemy.

The adversary/enemy wants someone to fight against - that is the point of being an adversary/enemy. If we fight back, then we are giving the enemy/adversary what they want.


Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but when Jesus says to "love your enemy", he obviously doesn't mean 'worship' or 'obey'. It just means not to give into war/fighting which was the whole point of saying "resist not evil, turn the other cheek".

Using war to get rid of war doesn't work. You need to stay as a peacemaker regardless of what the enemy is doing in order to keep the influence of Love and Peace going (just like the adversary is doing his best to keep hatred and destruction happening):

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

a reply to: arpgme

Yeah, but what I was trying to say is that, while he gives his Word to all of us, God only gives the spirit of his Word to the followers of his Word.

And without the spirit of his Word, how would we know his agape, even if we receive it? So, maybe agape, the love from/of his Spirit, is received by all, but not given understanding of by all?

Why? Because agape is not the love of wickedness. And as for wickedness, I think his love would prefer to get rid of it, if it will not follow his Word/The Way - the proper way to use/translate our spirits/The Spirit in order to make fruit worthy of God/heaven.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
Why? Because agape is not the love of wickedness.

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
." - Luke 6:35

a reply to: arpgme

Luke 6:27 (KJV)

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

For whose benefit did he preach that day? Who is he talking to?

Read Matthew 13

I think the way you guys understand Jesus is that he came preaching peace and love for all, but the way I understand him is that he came with a warning for his followers - that they must be justified in the spirit. I think the way you guys understand Jesus is counter-intuitive to God, and I think Jesus simply did not come preaching peace and love for all. Further, and speaking in general terms for reproof only: Didn't Jesus make the people, that he gave peace to, prove themselves justified in the spirit, before he would help them?

Now, again, with that understanding: What is love?

I think we should be able to rule out love for all, and love for the persons, but definitely leave love (charity) for worthy souls - souls who do not know better, or souls who are trying and repentant. But to the wicked, which is not to be confused with evil because we're all evil (destructive), I think there is a limit to agape, or rather, a limit to receiving/giving it.

What the limit is, honestly, I don't know, but I feel like there is more to it than loving everybody, all the time, no matter what. And maybe you do not know either, but maybe someone else could shed some light on the subject?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Think about when he said, "what you did to the least of these, you've done to me"

It is not our job to judge who is worthy of our love... We are to give it freely...

To love our neighbour as ourselves, but again as I've pointed out previously...

It helps to know who your neighbour is

a reply to: Bleeeeep

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
...I think the way you guys understand Jesus is that he came preaching peace and love for all, but the way I understand him is that he came with a warning for his followers - that they must be justified in the spirit. I think the way you guys understand Jesus is counter-intuitive to God, and I think Jesus simply did not come preaching peace and love for all...
...I think we should be able to rule out love for all, and love for the persons, but definitely leave love (charity) for worthy souls...

Jesus did preach Love for all. Jesus said not just to love your neighbor but to also love your enemies (Matthew 5:43-44), so yes, everyone is included and Jesus did preach Love for all.