Jon Stewart - "Nobody says, hey, men should not drink..."

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Tangerine
I don't believe the OP is saying that all rapes are always the woman's fault.

So, some rapes are the woman's fault?

What you described (a woman getting drunk and not remembering giving consent or is simply ashamed) is NOT rape. If she "cries" rape, when it really wasn't, that's NOT rape.

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Because it is not a woman's responsibility to prevent rape. She shouldn't have to.

If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.

This... a million times

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Tangerine
I don't believe the OP is saying that all rapes are always the woman's fault. The main issue of discussion was with the issue of going out and getting so plastered that all of inhibitions are lowered. The morning after she can't remember agreeing to sex or out of shame, cries rape. This type of encounter diminishes the real crimes of rape. In such a scenario, personal responsibility of choices, needs to be applied.

I advocate educating women so they are prepared. No one should have to be a victim, but know exactly what to do. My daughter was raped a few years back, she immediately went to the hospital first. The hospital called the police in. So many rapists get away with rape, because of the victimized mentality of society. They are told what to do in all events of emergencies, yet so many are clueless about rape. Is that because sex is so taboo a subject? rape is an traumatic emergency, go immediately to ER!

I am just saying a man should be responsible for his choices to get sh*t faced, but I women should not, is rediculous and totally bias. I had 3 daughters and now, 3 grandsons. I am more fearful for my grandsons in such a victimized society. I have heard many stories about men waking up after a night on the town, freaked out seeing who they went to bed with! They don't cry rape, they realize that they made some really bad choices and learned a lesson not to get so sh*t faced drunk! Women should accept that same responsibilty, is all I am saying. This type of scenario is not rape. If either one thinks that they were drugged? They should go get a blood test done immediately. That would be rape and intent to harm! Save the prisons for the real criminals or else, the prisons and courts will be so overloaded that the real criminals will not be processed duly.

Exactly. Thank you.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: sn0rch

Your sarcasm is obvious, but part of the problem. I don't see where the OP is suggesting any such thing! She is pointing out that when we do make certain choices, male or female, we can put ourselves in unpleasant situations. Being aware of this fact, instead of denying, will be more helpful in avoiding being a victim. When a woman dresses sexy, she should be more alert and aware. Telling women it doesn't matter what choices they make only creates more victims! Certainly, women in burqas have been raped too. Rape is not just about horny guys! Being personally responsible for your choices is not a get out of jail free card for rapists, it is a means to reduce the possibility of being a statistical victim.

This. So many times. This.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
Exactly. In the OP's original post, she pointed out that this discussion was not about real rape victims but the issue she had with Jon Stewart's idea that a man should be responsible for his actions while intoxicated yet women aren't. She had been focused on the whole bar scenario and not a woman being attacked or forced, but the idea that an woman cannot consent to sex because she was too inebriated to do so. To say this is rape is wrong and denigrates real victims! The whole thread seems to have gotten off topic. Everyone should reread the initial post.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic
I hate this idea that women are always the victims.

Let me give you a chance here. If a woman is going grocery shopping when she gets off work and she is raped on the short walk home, is she a victim?

If a woman goes to a bar and has one drink and dances with a few guys and on her way to her car, she is raped, is she a victim?

yes and yes. She is still a victim. She's still a victim of rape in both situations. She was raped, there's no other word for the outcome and what that makes her. Most likely if a woman is walking alone, and she has her hands full, it makes her look easy to overpower, and that's what a predator looks for. They don't want to go after someone who could cause a scene.
I'm not advocating that it's ever the persons fault, because it's not ever the persons fault. As other people who get what I mean have stated (in obviously clearer terms) we can do things that might prevent us from looking overpowerable and weak, or like a potential 'victim.' Not everyone can be saved from it, but some could. Do you really think a guy is still going to climb on top of you if you have a knife pointed at his sack? Probably not. Will a guy go after a women who is in a group? Probably not.

I don't get why everyone is trying to say I'm trying to advocate that rapists not be put away. That's not at all what I'm saying. It's just become very obvious in recent events that people who run colleges, sports teams, and the like couldn't give a single care about the wellbeing of a woman so we should just take it upon ourselves.

You add that with the man hating feminists that horde on the internet and you've got even more predators preying on women because they preach this "Women are weak" "I was drunk and took nudes of myself and sent them to every person in my phone. I'm the victim!"

originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: Lyxdeslic

Because it is not a woman's responsibility to prevent rape. She shouldn't have to.

If a woman got black-out drunk, dressed scantily, and danced provocatively every single night for her entire life and she even once got raped, it would not be her fault. Rape is the fault of the rapist, no matter what.

This thinking right here is why nobody in this world will ever accept responsibility for their own actions.

I completely agree with the op. I read a comment someone posted on an article related to this sort of topic on another site months ago. It was written by someone in CA who teaches women's self defense classes.

He pretty much stated that even though all the stuff women claim is correct, they should be allowed to dress/act in any way they want without risk of harm. But, that's not the world we live in. No matter what you say or do, there are people who don't care. The rapist doesn't care about any of what women believe the world should be. There's only one thing on their mind.

So just because women should be allowed to live how they want, we live in a world where women need to be aware of what type of attention they bring on themselves. An example he used is that people should be allowed to carry large quantities of cash on them without fear of it being stolen. But if you're walking around a shady neighborhood counting all of your cash, you might want to expect it to be stolen. The one who steals it doesn't care that you SHOULD be able to carry it around.

So if many could agree that it's stupid to count large sums of money at night in public, why can't people agree that maybe it's stupid for a women to get black out drunk as well?? Or to wear very scantily clad clothing around a bunch of drunk, horny men?? I mean, yes, they should be allowed, and the vast majority of men are good enough to allow that.

But the ones who rape don't care.

Rape is rape, drunk or sober.

originally posted by: Fylgje
Rape is rape, drunk or sober.

Nobody said it wasn't.

I am curious. If a man and woman meet up at a bar. The man gets inebriated and the sober girl offers to drive him home. If she enters into his home and begins making advances on him. He may perhaps say no, he has a girlfriend, yet she is persistent. Eventually they do have sex. Is he a victim of rape? why or why not?

Forgive me OP, I do not mean to derail your thread topic but to attempt to apply it in the opposite assumed role for more clarification.

originally posted by: CynConcepts


I am curious. If a man and woman meet up at a bar. The man gets inebriated and the sober girl offers to drive him home. If she enters into his home and begins making advances on him. He may perhaps say no, he has a girlfriend, yet she is persistent. Eventually they do have sex. Is he a victim of rape? why or why not?

Forgive me OP, I do not mean to derail your thread topic but to attempt to apply it in the opposite assumed role for more clarification.

Oh no, you're fine. This thread has gone to hell at this point anyway.
My opinion is that he was raped. But the public would shrug it off because he was drunk, and drunk or not, it's unheard of to the public that maybe a man doesn't want sex from every woman he meets.

EDIT:
In my mind, three nos and a yes, still means no.


Another edit:
So women are prudes and men are sluts. At least that's the way that society see's it when it comes to woman on male rape.

a reply to: charles1952

So if a black guy walked into a southern country style bar and started talking # about white people they'd beat him senseless or kill him? That would be justified and expected?

Last I checked the fault would be on the people who committed the violent crime. If I provoke someone they should have the self control and human decency to not resort to violence as a first option.

If I insult your mom every chance I get and you kill me you're a murderer and anyone who defends your murderous actions is a close minded fool. You could get a restraining order which is the proper course of action for harassment.

The victim of a violent crime is never at fault unless they came at you in violence. The irony of using Ferguson for your analogy is that the whole problem with Ferguson is that pushing a guy and stealing a $2 item doesn't deserve getting shot. Arrested hell yeah, shot no.

The victim of a rape is never at fault. If I was a hot chick and I spent all day showing you my fits and teasing you the fault is entirely on you for raping me. Have some human decency and don't act like an animal. Go watch some porn and masturbate. Rape is NEVER anyone's fault but the rapist period. Theft is never the fault of the one who got robbed. Murder is never the fault of the deceased.

Your entire premise revolves around putting blame on the victim. You're correct. It would be stupid to go into a black bar and spout racist KKK sentiments. That still shouldn't excuse the criminals from prosecution.

Once again you're also ignoring my point about the military. Those girls are not "whores asking for it" by any definition but you ignore the point entirely cause you know I'm right.

Just like Jon Stewart said the conversation is always about what women should do and never about holding men accountable.

You're utterly wrong. Disagree all you want but some ideas are inherently true. Murder is wrong. Slavery is wrong. Rape is wrong. Taking about what the victim can do to avoid it is fine but that conversation is pointless.

Women have known for literally all of human history to be wary of men. This is just as true now as in the roman empire or the jungles of Africa or modern america. Women totally get this. Its TOTALLY understood. It has been forever. So repeating the same tips and strategies is not adding to the conversation. It's known already.

Repeating the same thing women have already known for all of human history does not do anything but deflect the real issue. The real issue is how often rapists are protected from prosecution.

So again thanks for your tips and strategies (which don't apply to female soldiers). Let's not repeat them more while ignoring the true problem. The defensiveness and lack of self control or decency exhibited on a daily basis by many men. Until every rapist is prosecuted there is a problem and that problem has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the victim or their actions or lack of actions.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic
What if the inebriated guy doesn't say no but just goes with the flow of the moment? Would he still be considered a rape victim?

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic
Exactly. In the OP's original post, she pointed out that this discussion was not about real rape victims but the issue she had with Jon Stewart's idea that a man should be responsible for his actions while intoxicated yet women aren't.

A man SHOULD be responsible for his actions while drunk. Women should, too. But if a man rapes while drunk, it's NOT the woman's responsibility or fault, no matter how drunk she is. A drunk woman is responsible for falling off the table, passing out in the car, and so on. But she's NOT responsible for getting raped.

Consensual sex while drunk has NOTHING to do with rape, which was repeated MANY times in the OP. Are we talking about rape or consensual sex? They are two different things and need to be discussed as such. The problem with the OP is that she mixed them together as if they are the same thing.

She had been focused on the whole bar scenario and not a woman being attacked or forced, but the idea that an woman cannot consent to sex because she was too inebriated to do so.

The thread is titled with Jon Stewart's quote. Here's what that discussion was about:

Referencing the recent scandal surrounding NFL player Ray Rice, Gillibrand explained that institutions — like the NFL, universities and the military — protect their “star[s]” and “favorite son[s]” and simultaneously blame female victims of sexual and nonsexual violence.

“What it’s really about in my opinion is how do we value women in society,” Gillibrand expanded, “and there’s this devaluation and it’s across every barrier, whether we’re talking about sexual assault and not believing the survivor or whether we’re talking about equal pay for equal work.”

Interestingly enough, Stewart did a lot of the talking about how men need to be held accountable for their actions, pointing directly to the issue of rape on college campuses.

“Nobody says, hey, maybe men should not drink because that might make them … it’s mind boggling,” Stewart said. “It’s all about women must dress differently, women must walk differently, women must drink differently. Why are we not able to hold men to account for this behavior?”

Source

It was about how the organizations protect their boys and they are not held accountable. Instead, they blame the women for their own sexual assault, saying they should have behaved differently. The OP has a problem with Jon's quote.

Given in context, what are we to assume?

Look, I've been carrying pepper spray for YEARS, I walk fast, with my head up and I look around, noticing everything. I still got raped. Women ARE taught how to be careful of their surroundings and I firmly believe in that, but to ever say that women should be held responsible for being in the situation that got them raped is just wrong, IMO, because if a woman goes out, scantily clad, and gets drunk every night of her life, she is NEVER responsible for being raped. Not even a little bit.

If she has consensual sex, she is as responsible as the guy. But let's not talk about these two situations as though they're the same thing. I think that's what's caused the bulk of disagreement in this thread. If it's not rape, don't call it rape.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic

It really is too bad this is one of 'those' topics. There is little you could say that wouldn't lead to reactions like you see in the thread.

It is good that you refuse the victim mentality OP.

I think there is just too large of a disconnect between how people think things should be and reality. I never realized how deep this disconnect actually is until I saw some previous threads here on ATS. Personal responsibility is becoming taboo, but its happening on so many fronts it is hard to pinpoint. Ironically, it tends to be a card that is called into play against someone else, alongside blame. This quickly devolves what could be a discussion into a blame game. But if no one takes responsibility because 'they' should do it, then nothing will ever change because 'they' is everyone else to everybody. Leaving nobody to bear the burden of the work.

We should, of course, work towards an ideal and 'be the change we wish to see,' but we ignore reality at our own peril. I encourage every woman (and man) I know to get a CCW. The world should be a better place, and we can all work to create it one day at a time, but we aren't there yet. Ignoring that reality is dangerous on every topic concerned.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
a reply to: Lyxdeslic
What if the inebriated guy doesn't say no but just goes with the flow of the moment? Would he still be considered a rape victim?

Between strangers? Yes. For casual sex, consent is an excited yes. If the person look weary of the situation, distant, or possibly even regretful in the moment it's a no-go.

Between friends? I would still say yes. Again consent is a big excited yes.

Between lovers? This muddys water a little bit because between those in a relationship, sometimes it's not a clear conversation of "Do you want to have sex?" It's a go with the flow thing. Society would say that if it was the man sober and the woman drunk, it's rape. But would shrug it off if it was the other way around.

If they are both drunk and nothing is said but they go with the flow and have sex... I don't think it's rape. It's just a morning of being ashamed and a walk of shame home.

My equalist side says that if we classify it as rape for a woman it should be classified as rape for a man.

You guys keep bringing up how women take advantage of men. This is far far less common than the reverse.

To the guy who mentioned his grandsons I hope they're terrified. It's about time men start waking on eggshells like women have done for THOUSANDS of years. Maybe you should teach your grandsons to respect women and treat sex as a fun activity between consenting people rather than as a conquest or game to win.

Male culture has for most of human history been about being the winner. When you get laid your buddies act the same way as when you win a race or an arm wrestling match.

The major problem with rape is male culture. I'm very sorry that you guys are having a tough time adjusting to the fact that women are equal to men.

Maybe you should teach your sons and grandsons to be real HUMAN BEINGS not real MEN. There is nothing about the dominant male culture of history that is necessary today. Most rape is about a man seeking validation and power in the only way they know how, violence/coercion. Teach them to value service to others not service to oneself. Getting laid should not be congratulated as a victory even if achieved through normal means. That's the root of the problem. Sex and women are viewed as objects to be won much like houses and cars.

Women are people too. Give them the respect you didn't give them for ALL of history.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Bravo sir/madam. Bravo

Nobody has said women shouldn't be respected. No one said that women aren't equal to men. At this point it feels like you're talking out of your ass because everyone who's been in agreement has said in numerous different ways exactly what we mean and you're going back to what you think we mean.

Maybe if society stopped making it look like men are different than women things would be different. Maybe if boobs weren't used to sell everything from a cheeseburger to soap things would be different. Maybe if every song on modern radio stations weren't about partying, sex, and drugs things would be different. But those things probably aren't going to change.

a reply to: Lyxdeslic
Thank you for responding to my off topic questions. You stated your reasoning succinctly. This is a topic that can be quite emotional as many of the posts have shown. Someone earlier was categorizing crimes...rape, murder, robbery, etc. All crimes have varying degrees depending on the intention and evolved situation. A shoplifting crime is definitely punishable differently than armed robbery. Just as you had shown up above in listing the variety of directions a drunken encounter could entail.