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"It's easy to demonise Putin," – and he's not a Hitler

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posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 01:17 AM
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originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

To return to topic, the OP is taken out of context. In his book, Kissinger describes the European "Westphalian system," in which nation states do not interfere with each others' internal affairs. He explains how Russia never really bought in to the system fully, and as the USSR it would alternately flout the system by professing to lead world revolution, then withdrawing behind the system when criticized for human rights violations. Putin continues this schizophrenic attitude by accusing NGOs of attempting to subvert Russia, while meddling in the affairs of nearby states himself.

As for comparisons to Hitler, no one is accusing Putin of implementing genocidal programs. The comparisons are with Hitler's use of pseudo-diplomacy and force to expand his national boundaries... in violation of the Westphalian system. I'm pretty sure Kissinger would agree to that characterization.


What Westphalian system?? The Western states have repeatedly violated national boundaries. The glowing examples of Iraq, Libya, and Syria and dozens of other countries subject to overt and covert military action are facts.

Russia and USSR cannot be compared. Any comparison between USSR and Russia is superfluous. USSR can only be seen as an amalgam of all SSRs of which Russia was only a part.

Hitler and Putin are two very different individuals. Putin is a nationalist whereas Hilter was a supremacist. Hitler wanted his race to rule the world. I have not seen any such propaganda from Putin so far.

An adversarial Ukraine will definitely face military action from Russia. This is a given. Nobody can take a direct challenge to its security lying down.




posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 01:53 AM
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a reply to: Ridhya

I always keep that in the back of my mind as a possibility, but going down a certain road as the writer does, you will keep holding on to it.

I`m always questioning that theses, but it could be true.

And with EU now already calling for easing sanctions, Henry being all affectionate and Obama now renewing love for Russia it`s possible.



Russia is a great country with incredible talent and incredible traditions, US President Barack Obama says

Source
edit on 29-9-2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 01:56 AM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
They asked for protection to uphold peace.

Actually no they didnt.

Feel free to link me to your source that says otherwise.



originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
And we are to believe Ukrainian television and an institute which has Putin critics in it who just estimated things ?

Sure why not... We do the same for RT reporting.

/end sarcasm.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 02:08 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

You missed the point with Obama's comments. You do the same in these threads as well.

There is a difference between the Russian people and the Russian government. I can't fault the Russian people for Putin's actions. Even more so since they are restricted to State media all the time.

Here is the other side -
Russia's Lavrov says ties with Washington need 'reset 2.0'

They still blame everyone but themselves for the issues they created in Ukraine. in this case though the purpose behind the Russian position is based solely on economics and nothing more. The sanctions are adversely affecting the Russian economy, which is something the Russian government tries to downplay.

What we are seeing here is the same that occurred just prior to the collapse of the USSR. Western leaders discussed several options for the USSR near the end. The one area that was suggested but ruled out was financial assistance. While the tone from Moscow changed considerably, the concern was if they provided financial assistance, they could very well be propping the USSR up -

Or in other words it would be like a person being held at gunpoint and walking up to the suspect and handing him bullets.

Russia is not going to stop what its doing so there is really no reason to try a reset 2.0. All they want is the sanctions to be removed and nothing more. They will try and use this to achieve that goal. Its the same with the pro russian rebels and hamas - they start something and when they get their asses kicked, they demand a cease fire. They use that time to rearm and resupply at which point they attack again.

If Putin were serious about the Peace plan he is claiming credit for, then he would make sure its being enforced. However, even though the plan calls for the borders to be secured by Ukraine, the rebels are refusing to comply. Putin refuses to deal with the rebels in that area.

I wonder why.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 02:42 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

The new prime-minister did, the one who took over because they knew what was coming for them...as what has been proved later on in the East.



In Crimea, the new pro-Russian prime minister — who came to power after the gunmen swept into parliament on Thursday — claimed control of the military and police and asked Putin for help in keeping peace.

Source



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 02:45 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I know enough from politics to know Obama now all of suden can`t go praise Putin again right now. So he instead uses just "Russia," that`s just all politics.
edit on 29-9-2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 04:03 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien
The thing with the EU though is they are a lot closer to Russia (I dont mean physically) than the US/Canada, and so a lot of people here dont understand it at all. German politician recently said they view Russia much less suspiciously and of course they rely much more heavily on their economy. The gas/oil being the main thing obviously.

The EU (Germany) was much more reluctant to sanction and happy to lift them, particularly as WINTER IS COMING (GoT reference
) and they need to survive it.

Europeans think their place is cold. They should come up north!

You are completely right that Obama cant suddenly 180 and praise Putin, even though Fox News praised him as a jab to Obama's leadership. He wants to test the waters. Americans are waiting for Russia to fulfill bible prophecy and whatnot so they'd probably accept an alliance. lol



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 04:18 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

You missed the point with Obama's comments. You do the same in these threads as well.

There is a difference between the Russian people and the Russian government. I can't fault the Russian people for Putin's actions. Even more so since they are restricted to State media all the time.

Here is the other side -
Russia's Lavrov says ties with Washington need 'reset 2.0'

They still blame everyone but themselves for the issues they created in Ukraine



So here is me thinking that the actual western influenced Coup d'état was the

start of all this...........


Riouz



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 04:53 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The flaw in your argument is the fact the Prime Minister, Sergey Aksyonov, is a Russian citizen - NOT Ukrainian. He was not elected and had no authority.

You have a self appointed Russian citizen seize control of Crimea and then asked for Russian troops. He did not ask for Russian troops to keep the peace. That was nothing more than a lie in order to create a false justification for Russian troops to invade Ukraine.

Sergey Aksyonov

Do you guys do any research or do you just blindly follow Putin?

Russia pulled the same stunt in Georgia as well as Afghanistan.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 04:54 AM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: Xcathdra

I know enough from politics to know Obama now all of suden can`t go praise Putin again right now. So he instead uses just "Russia," that`s just all politics.


Its not politics.

The issue is with Putin, not the Russian people.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 04:58 AM
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a reply to: Riouz

Except for the fact Russia caused it.

Take the time to research the main players on the Pro Russian side going back to the start of this. The key Pro Russian players are in fact Russia citizens, not Ukrainian.

Its difficult to accuse the west of being responsible when its Russian citizens reporting to the Kremlin that were present from the start and who are still present today. Just recently the top 2 leaders of the illegal DPR were Russian citizens. They fled back to Russia when Ukraine advanced close to their areas.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:29 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

If they can take the power unlawful in the Ukraine they can do the same in Crimea, so what`s the problem ?

Oh wait, Crimea wasn`t approved by The West...sorry, forgot about your moral The West can only dictate what is right in this world.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:36 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien


The West can only dictate what is right in this world.


Humanitarian convoy to Donbass is an invasion, bombing Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan is just spreading democracy.




posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:38 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
What about the snipers, who were neither Berkuta nor Ukrainian protesters? Shooting both sides. Who were they? Because they are the real instigators who escalated the situation.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:47 AM
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a reply to: GargIndia


What Westphalian system?? The Western states have repeatedly violated national boundaries. The glowing examples of Iraq, Libya, and Syria and dozens of other countries subject to overt and covert military action are facts.


As I have repeatedly explained, the invasion of Iraq was a violation of Westphalian principles, and should be considered a crime. In Libya and Syria, there were already native rebellions. The rebels appealed to the world for help, and some Western nations provided intelligence, arms and even military support. In effect, they were recognizing the rebels as the de jure, legitimate government. This is in keeping with Westphalian principles.


Russia and USSR cannot be compared. Any comparison between USSR and Russia is superfluous. USSR can only be seen as an amalgam of all SSRs of which Russia was only a part.


Russia itself is an amalgam of disparate regions with different climates, cultures, language and religion. Your rejection of the comparison is spurious.


Hitler and Putin are two very different individuals. Putin is a nationalist whereas Hilter was a supremacist. Hitler wanted his race to rule the world. I have not seen any such propaganda from Putin so far.


I agree; Hitler and Putin have very different characters. As I have repeatedly stress, it is their tactics that are similar. Similar tactics will lead, however inadvertently, to similar ends.


An adversarial Ukraine will definitely face military action from Russia. This is a given. Nobody can take a direct challenge to its security lying down.


Which is why the Kyiv government was forced to take military action against an adversarial Russia!



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:49 AM
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originally posted by: maghun
a reply to: BornAgainAlien


The West can only dictate what is right in this world.


Humanitarian convoy to Donbass is an invasion, bombing Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan is just spreading democracy.



And Putin killed more Muslim women in Chechniya than both combined.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:53 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




They fled back to Russia when Ukraine advanced close to their areas.


It seems one of them has been pretty active as of late...


Russian separatist leader Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin has claimed responsibility for targeting two Ukrainian ships in the Sea of Azov off the coast of Mariupol.

In his social media VKontakte account, the Russian equivalent to Facebook, Strelkov said that "the militia have dealt the enemy their first naval defeat".


www.ibtimes.co.uk...

Looks as though he couldn't stay away from Ukraine.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 05:57 AM
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a reply to: maghun




Humanitarian convoy to Donbass is an invasion,


No, but sending military equipment and troops into Ukraine is.



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 06:08 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

You forgot about the Ukrainian rebels asking for help, oh no they were maiden protestors, oh no they were maiden security forces, oh no they were neo-nazi`s, oh no they were Donbass volunteers, damn this is getting confusing, couldn`t they just stick to one name for them all.
edit on 29-9-2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2014 @ 06:09 AM
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a reply to: Ridhya


Shooting both sides. Who were they?


We will never know, as ukRUINe is now a "western" democracy with "western" values. One of the shooters was later captured and freed as OSCE observer (covert NATO mercenary), John Christensen, senior Sgt.



www.abovetopsecret.com...



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