A number of American conservatives hate the world

Expanding Ownership of Retirement Assets: The tax relief legislation signed into law by the President provided almost $50 billion dollars of tax relief over the next ten years to strengthen retirement security. This landmark legislation raised the contribution limits for IRA and 401(k) accounts, allowed for additional �catch up� contributions for workers aged 50 and over, and speeded up the vesting process for employer contributions to 401(k) accounts. The President has also proposed to create, for the first time, the right for every worker to own assets within the Social Security system through personal accounts.

Sounds good to me... Unless you hate Bush and are determined to see him fail.

Ensuring Freedom of Choice: The President�s proposal would ensure that workers who have participated in 401(k) plans for three years are given the freedom to choose where to invest their retirement savings. The President has also proposed that choice be a feature of Social Security itself, allowing individuals to voluntarily invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in personal retirement accounts.

This is the one that scares libs... They might have to think for a change... Oh and the government doesn't have control over it!!!

you can read the rest of the plan here with no spin and make your own mind up on the issue... Unlike some people around here that can't think for themselves..............
www.whitehouse.gov...

hey kid... I wasn't the one who started the childish name calling... reread the thread and see who used the word shmuck and bushie...etc, etc, etc.

Originally posted by LostSailor

This is the one that scares libs... They might have to think for a change... Oh and the government doesn't have control over it!!!

What? The only thing that scares us about the current administration is the complete lack of disregard for our constitution

The plan doesntcover SS, only 401K accounts, which everybody knows is nothing more than a gloryfied savings account that you can borrow agianst. Try agian.

hey kid... I wasn't the one who started the childish name calling... reread the thread and see who used the word shmuck and bushie...etc, etc, etc.

I think you should go back and reread. I never called YOU a schmuck. I called Bush a schmuck. I DID call you a bushie, and if that offends you, I apologize.

Oh, by the way, you really dont think www.whitehouse.gov isnt biased for the presidents plans? I guess Fox news gives a neutral account of everything as well. OF COURSE the website promoting the government that Bush runs is going to be biased towards Bush.
It would seem you cant even deny your own spin.



[edit on 12/15/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Oh, by the way, you really dont think www.whitehouse.gov isnt biased for the presidents plans? I guess Fox news gives a neutral account of everything as well. OF COURSE the website promoting the government that Bush runs is going to be biased towards Bush.

Dude... It's the actual S.S. plan... there are no feelings or reporters thoughts on the subject injected in to it. It's all about what the president is going to do. There is no frickin' spin on it... Do you know what spin is?????

Originally posted by Kidfinger

I think you should go back and reread. I never called YOU a schmuck. I called Bush a schmuck. I DID call you a bushie, and if that offends you, I apologize.

Calling my president a shmuck does offend me... its funny how in a previous post in this thread you talk about how conservatives always resort to name calling.

You can keep your insincere apology...

Look at how each paragraph is titled. It is titled to make it appeare much better than it actually is. Misrepresentation is spin. Here is yours,

Creating a Society of Stakeholders
Providing for Equal Treatment of Senior Executives and Rank and File Employees
Strengthening Women�s Retirement Security

Thats just 3 of the misleading titles. There is your spin you so defiantly refuse to deny.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Look at how each paragraph is titled. It is titled to make it appeare much better than it actually is. Misrepresentation is spin. Here is yours,

Creating a Society of Stakeholders
Providing for Equal Treatment of Senior Executives and Rank and File Employees
Strengthening Women�s Retirement Security

Thats just 3 of the misleading titles. There is your spin you so defiantly refuse to deny.

Dude!!! Thats not freakin spin!!! Thats what the plan is intended to do!!! How the hell should the plan be written up then so it has np spin? You are making absolutley no freakin' sense now....

I only hope more people can see how your just arguing for arguments sake.....

Really... tell me how the plan should be written so it contains no spin your enlightened mind...

Come on Kidfinger! You know better than that! Whatever Lost Sailor and his fellow travelers don't like is SPIN!

Hey Lost Sailor, I betcha you called Klinton all kinda bad names! (just like I did) So, please don't get all bent out of shape and sniffly when someone does the same with your idol, G Dubya.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by LostSailor

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Look at how each paragraph is titled. It is titled to make it appeare much better than it actually is. Misrepresentation is spin. Here is yours,

Creating a Society of Stakeholders
Providing for Equal Treatment of Senior Executives and Rank and File Employees
Strengthening Women�s Retirement Security

Thats just 3 of the misleading titles. There is your spin you so defiantly refuse to deny.

Dude!!! Thats not freakin spin!!! Thats what the plan is intended to do!!! How the hell should the plan be written up then so it has np spin? You are making absolutley no freakin' sense now....

I only hope more people can see how your just arguing for arguments sake.....

Really... tell me how the plan should be written so it contains no spin your enlightened mind...

Im off to school for the evening, so Ill make this brief.

A society of stockholders: Only if you have a 401K. Over HALF of America DOES NOT.

Providing for Equal Treatment of Senior Executives and Rank and File: Yeah, this is like saying we will erradicate racism with a law. It wont work. There is a pecking order, and this will change nothing. Im not tying the pecking order to racism. I am tying it to the equal treatment of everyone in a company. A racist is scum.

Strengthening Women�s Retirement Security: This is a ploy to sway the majority of women voters who were overwhelmingly AGIANST Bush. Wouldnt it be unequal treatment anyway? Isnt that what your administration is trying to do? A hypocritical title if I ever heard one.

So there is your spin on just those three titles. You wont gain anything by saying Im arguing just to argue. Thats an infantile way out. Typical. Your following suit very well

One question for you. Are you a participent in Plan Daisy? I think you just might be.

[edit on 12/15/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Im not tying the pecking order to racism. I am tying it to the equal treatment of everyone in a company. A racist is scum.

I say the same thing about communists

Good thing your going to school... Finally figuring out how capitalism works I see...... Glad to see you may finally be joining the system instead of fighting it.

Originally posted by TrueLies
How do you get real with mentally unstable leaders??

You don't worry about them; unless they threaten your country in some real way.

Making excuses for sadam doesn't negate what he did to his OWN people.

No one's made any excuses for Saddam. And about him gassing his own people... That line is so beyond tired.. He wouldn't have been able to gas his own people etc.. had we not supplied him with the stuff. And by the way, our grand moral kings heir Rummy et al knew full-well what their man Saddam was doing and didn't give a ratsazz at the time. One word for ya: HYPOCRISY.

Sadam Hussein isn't the perfect poster boy for this?

People who understand the real threats facing this nation aren't and weren't the least bit concerned with that tin-pot diktator. He was perfectly contained before the invasion. The only real threat he posed was publishing some gooey, ridiculous novel for the world to see.

Hussein is a boogyman?? Suicde attackers are boogymen? Terrorist cells are boogymen?? North Korean's dictator is a boogyman?

bigTime. The boogyman is whomever they tell you he is. They tell you. You cower. You buy it. Just like green, little Army recruits. Folks shouldn't be so naive, psychologically. And that's not to say there are no threats. Of course there are. hell, the world's biggest threat currently resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. and the Pentagon.

He he... Proving the point Libs hate America.... WTG kid!!!!

Keep bashing everything America stands for... Keep bashing America.... Keep bashing Americas President... Keep bashing the war and spitting in your American brethrens face....... Keep bashing.................................. Oh and keep hating while your at it... your good at that!!!

[edit on 15-12-2004 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by LostSailor
He he... Proving the point Libs hate America.... WTG kid!!!!

Keep bashing everything America stands for... Keep bashing America.... Keep bashing Americas President... Keep bashing the war and spitting in your American brethrens face....... Keep bashing.................................. Oh and keep hating while your at it... your good at that!!!

[edit on 15-12-2004 by LostSailor]

sailor, whilst i do not agree with many things you have said, i must respect you persistancy in standing up for what you obviously believe quite strongly in

However the above tirade and many of the threats and insults posted by you, undermine you. conservatives who resort to such tactics are the reason why there is little love for them.

I'm not trying to dis you, i'm trying to calm things down a little so you can see that NOT resorting to threats, and NOT resorting to insults will leave things open for constructive debate. IMO, debates where one side resorts to screaming hate at the other to drown them out, take the glossy finish off the right to free speech

now i must critisize you.

You think commies are scum? i hope you make that judgement after at least making a half @$$ed atempt at trying to understand communism. if you do not then i suggest it is something you might look into. i am not trying to convert you to Marxism or anything, but in my experience a vast majority of communists are good natured people, who are generally concerned with fairness for everyone. people like Stalin and Pol Pot are the reasons America hates communism

jsobecky

i dont think Kofi Annan hates america - he just will not be a tool of the Neo-con movement

fair play to him

I wish my Prime minister B'liar followed that principle

peace

Oh, I understand communism. I�ve read enough into it to understand why I would never want to live under a communist government. Why you are probably asking? I don�t believe all workers should be treated equally because not all workers are equal. Some people work harder, more efficiently, and they should be rewarded for that. Communism breeds sloth and laziness in the work force because you aren�t rewarded for doing extra or better work then someone else. Capitalism rewards its hard working determined citizens yet still allow the less determined to make a living. I don�t think anyone knows what�s better for me then me. I don�t ever want to have to depend on someone else let alone my government. I want control over my life.

Communism is great in theory� If you are willing to hand your life over to someone else, and let them make your decisions for you, then it�s a great system. If you are a person that can make decisions for yourself, and can accept failure and hard times on occasion, then Capitalism is the way to go.

We have a threat in our country plotting against Americas Capitalists as I write this thread. A Union, that has admitted to its founders as being communists, and calls itself civil. If you can figure out what I�m talking about take a long look at what they are trying to do to this country. Russia lost the cold war but they�re still fighting us now from within our own borders. It�s obvious if you look at it closely.

Originally posted by LostSailor
I don�t believe all workers should be treated equally because not all workers are equal. Some people work harder, more efficiently, and they should be rewarded for that.

HEHEHE I knew I would catch you in a conservative slip up sooner or later It seems to me, that just a mere few hours ago, you were pushing an investment program put forth by your fearless leader, that just so happen to have a section in it that said something about ALL employees, from the top to the bottom, recieving equal treatment.

God I LOVE IT when that happens

By the way, the above tirade where you degenerated into a child agian was really unbecoming of someone in the elite ruling party

Ladies and gentelmen, another conservative view shown to be hypicritical in nature. No, no, hold your applause

Thanks for trying to calm things down with Lostsailor....now please get to work on Kidfinger!

As far as communism goes, once again, people identify the philosophy with the implementers, who have generally been failures. IMO, communism is a nice intellectual exercise, but cannot work for the simple fact that it goes against human nature. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Somebody has to make the decision as to what needs are valid, eh? That's where the conflicts begin.

I have to laugh at this one:

The policeman pulls you over for speeding. Instead of asking you how fast you were going, he wants to know your income. In order to be fair to lower-income drivers, fines are now based on income, not on how much over the limit you were going. In fact, all prices will soon be income-adjusted, to make sure no one has an unfair advantage.

Fairy tale or fact?

Actually, it's a fact. In Finland, traffic fines are based on the offender's income, not his offense, this according to a recent Wall Street Journal article written by Steven Landsburg, professor of economics at the University of Rochester. The story goes like this: a senior vice president at Nokia, who had recently cashed in a whole lot of stock options, was fined $103,600 for running his motorbike down a Helsinki street at 47 miles per hour in a 30 mph zone. Had his gardener been driving, the fine would have been $50. A government minister explains that progressive punishment is just like progressive taxation�The more you earn, the more you pay.

pages.prodigy.net...

I wouldn't want to live under such a system.

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by LostSailor
I don�t believe all workers should be treated equally because not all workers are equal. Some people work harder, more efficiently, and they should be rewarded for that.

HEHEHE I knew I would catch you in a conservative slip up sooner or later

It seems to me, that just a mere few hours ago, you were pushing an investment program put forth by your fearless leader, that just so happen to have a section in it that said something about ALL employees, from the top to the bottom, recieving equal treatment.

Yawn... I was talking about equall pay ya Jar He*d, not equal treatment. Go reread what I said.

By the way, the above tirade where you degenerated into a child agian was really unbecoming of someone in the elite ruling party

You have the elitist thing flipped backwards man... The Republican Party is now more for the middle and lower class then the Democrats (actually they always have been, people are just now starting to see what the democrats truley are.)... The Libs are the intillectual elitists... I've never once claimed to be anything more than average intelligence here at ATS... You libs are the ones that seem to be infatuauted with yourselves.

Ladies and gentelmen, another conservative view shown to be hypicritical in nature. No, no, hold your applause

Nothing hypocrytical there... Ladies and Gentelmen, Kidfinger once again showing his true bitter self... No No hold your applause.....

Originally posted by LostSailor

Originally posted by LostSailor
I don�t believe all workers should be treated equally because not all workers are equal. Some people work harder, more efficiently, and they should be rewarded for that.

Yawn... I was talking about equall pay ya Jar He*d, not equal treatment. Go reread what I said.

First off, Im NOT a JARHEAD! I am an ex NAVY Damage Controle Officer with a rank of E-5 when I got out.
Ok, you were talking about equalpay NOT being acceptable? well lets see what your wonderful plan to advance personal investment has to say.

The President�s pension reform proposals would provide for equality of opportunity between senior executives and wage owners,

Basically, everyone from the top to the bottom will have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Can you not grasp that this is what you have denied being for previously, and even befor that, you were saying how you approved of this? There in lies you hypocracy.

Nothing hypocrytical there... Ladies and Gentelmen, Kidfinger once again showing his true bitter self... No No hold your applause.....

And you cant even be originalTypical, a conservative would have to take a Liberal idea and try to improve upon it, only making it WORSE

The thing I dont get about you is you start out saying Bush's SS plan was a good thing. I countered that and proved it NOT to be. Then you switch the subject to a 401k retirment bill that has NOTHING to do with social security. After all, wasnt this argument about Social Security? Why are you constantly skirting the fact that Bush is a meglomaniac who could come up with a good SS, Health Care, (insert agenda here) plan that actuall works and benifits EVERYONE? Your view of Liberals and Conservative is highly skewed, and Im starting to think you might be a confused closet Liberal just crying out for someone to show you the err of the Conservative ways. Ive debunked your SS plan. Ive debunked your 401K plan. Hell, Ive even debunked your views towards the Conservative agenda. Dont worry, when you come around, we will accept you regardless of your previous party affilliation.

And just to show you how much you really know about Liberals, I was offering a true, honest apology for calling you a bushie.

The fact is, and I have said this on MANY replies to this thread: This thread was to tell Conservatives to quit saying Liberals hate this country. The Conservatives that have replied are OBVIOUSLY trying to change the original intent of this thread through argumentitave tactics about presidential plans instead of confronting the real issue at hand. We dont hate this country, we love it. The Conservatives just cant handle that fact. Agian, typical


Yawn, you bore me.

[edit on 12/16/04 by Kidfinger]

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by LostSailor

Yawn... I was talking about equall pay ya Jar He*d, not equal treatment. Go reread what I said.

First off, Im NOT a JARHEAD! I am an ex NAVY Damage Controle Officer with a rank of E-5 when I got out.

I didn't call you a JARHEAD... Hey cool a Navy Officer... I went the opposite direction and started working in the Engine room as a Merchant Marine... We do half as much work as you guys and get paid 10 times more....... I'm now working on my officer license for 3rd Engineer.

Ok, you were talking about equalpay NOT being acceptable? well lets see what your wonderful plan to advance personal investment has to say.

The President�s pension reform proposals would provide for equality of opportunity between senior executives and wage owners,

Basically, everyone from the top to the bottom will have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Can you not grasp that this is what you have denied being for previously, and even befor that, you were saying how you approved of this? There in lies you hypocracy.

Yeah, its always been that way, everyone has the opportunity to succeed IF THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. I still see no connection here between equal pay between employees and the revamped S.S. system. Now your just sounding *lost*

The thing I dont get about you is you start out saying Bush's SS plan was a good thing. I countered that and proved it NOT to be.

You did nothing of the sort.... You didn't prove anything!!! All you proved was you could find reporter that hates Bush... That's tough to do

Nah... I ain't no in the closet liberal... I'm not intelligent enough to be accepted into your elitist party... I'm just an average joe...

Maybe you're the in the closet Conservative...

Kidflinger, You keep making these outrageous claims that you won the debate... You didn't win anything unless winning is refusing to lose. In that case, look what you did to jsobecky, she knows more about this crap then me and she scares you. She got one jab in on you and you could only counter with a "you don't know what your talking about."

Your hatred of Bush is blinding you......

Originally posted by LostSailor
In that case, look what you did to jsobecky, she knows more about this crap then me and she scares you. She got one jab in on you and you could only counter with a "you don't know what your talking about."

Your hatred of Bush is blinding you......

HAHAHAHAHAH Thats rich! I countered everything she had to offer Easy to do when you present opinion and not evidence. She obvouisly DID NOT know what she was talking about as she insinuated that there was only one plan under the Liberals that allowed for a fix of SS. There are 7 or 8 at last count. So I think that was settled and is why there was no rebuttle.

Agian, you are not denying ignorance, but rather, embracing it through your refusal to even acknowledge what this thread was originally intended to be about.Agian, typical, and yet agian..........

You bore me.

just had to add this.

Yeah, its always been that way, everyone has the opportunity to succeed IF THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. I still see no connection here between equal pay between employees and the revamped S.S. system. Now your just sounding *lost*

Your quote, agian, proving you are skirting the real issue. Of course there is no connection to SS, because the plan doesnt cover it. It covers 401k's. You are the one who brought this plan up in order to rebuke my statements about the SS plan that Bush wants to pass. You are the one that tried to make it sound like the 401k plan was tied to the SS plan. I was simply showing you the err of BOTH plans.

Oh, I guess through all the Conservative propaganda, you fail to realize that the Democratic party was created for the people, and not the gov, as the republican party. And we will accept new members whos IQ are not above 120. so there will alaways be a place for you on the peoples side if you should so choose to cross the line of acceptance. Right now, your in the party of tolerance.


[edit on 12/16/04 by Kidfinger]

Hey... you're one of those guys that always has to have the last word aren't you? We may have a problem here...

I guess you fell for the propoganda that the dems are a party for the people....