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BREAKING: Video Finally Released of Cops Shooting Man with a Toy Gun in Wal-Mart

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posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:33 PM
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originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Answer

Attachment to a victim doesn't affect rational thought.



Attachment to LEOs doesn't automatically make them innocent either.



I don't have an attachment to LEOs. I have an attachment to rational thought instead of "burn em at the stake!" herd mentality that's so common here.




there is a difference between thinking you have rational thought and actually having rational thought....this was clear cut murder...no if buts or maybe's


Right, which is exactly why the cops have been cleared of all wrongdoing. Please...

Here's the biggest issue I have with this: many people on this site have decided that the police are NEVER JUSTIFIED for anything they do. You've decided that every case of self-defense is now a case of police brutality. What you're doing is muddying the issue so much that we can't even talk about real cases of police brutality because nobody knows the difference anymore. If someone gets shot, the cops were in the wrong PERIOD and there's no discussion that can be had.




posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:33 PM
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The police were clearly in the wrong. My fellow ATS members have proved it.

As for the jury, judge, review boards, fellow officers, family members, buddies, possible lodge members, boyfriends....nope. He's free and clear!

So if you aspire to become a Ted Bundy you don't have to stalk sorority girls you just become a police officer! Protection, fraternal brothership, endless targets. Plus you get a gun. How could you lose?



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:34 PM
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originally posted by: Answer

Life doesn't work like the movies.



Oh I think we know who may have seen too many movies that day....



When the muzzle of your weapon moves EVEN A TINY BIT like you're going to point it at someone, you will be shot. Police don't wait around to see what's going to happen, they stop the threat.


They had taken up hidden positions behind the edge of the store shelves and had a perfect line of fire.


They yelled at him, the muzzle started to come up, he got shot. The cops didn't know if he was carelessly swinging it around like a baton



From their hidden position behind the shelving they could have observed him first then decided what to do next or yell.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:38 PM
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I think ATS should have a forum for police issues (if we don't already) call it the Police Review Board. Post police harassment, brutality, corruption, etc. Hopefully without insults.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

This thread is in that very section.

posse comitatus



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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America, land of the free,
Free to the power of the people in uniform!!!



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Answer
What you see is Mr. Crawford standing in the aisle with A RIFLE OF SOME TYPE that looks exactly like a standard military-style rifle. The police had no way to know it's an air rifle


Try something like

THIS IS THE POLICE, DROP YOUR WEAPON!




?

Then when he complied they would have found out that the RIFLE OF SOME TYPE that looks exactly like a standard military-style rifle was sold at the very store they were at.

No?



Life doesn't work like the movies.

When the muzzle of your weapon moves EVEN A TINY BIT like you're going to point it at someone, you will be shot. Police don't wait around to see what's going to happen, they stop the threat.

They yelled at him, the muzzle started to come up, he got shot. The cops didn't know if he was carelessly swinging it around like a baton or if he was about to bring it up and start firing. That's what the video shows and that's why the cops were cleared of any wrongdoing.


So its a crime punishable by death to attempt to turn in the direction of someone that is yelling at you?

Wow.


When you have a RIFLE IN YOUR HAND, yes!


Even if it's a BB rifle?

I mean the guy wasn't even given a chance to tell them that it was a BB gun.


Again, you live in the real world.

If you're holding a rifle by its grip and the muzzle raises, any rational person will assume you plan to fire. There are MANY ways to hold a weapon that are non-threatening. Hand on the grip is a firing position.

If a person sees another person holding a black rifle by its grip, they don't think "oh, I'm sure that's just a BB gun and he's not planning to do anything bad." The first thought through any rational person's head would be "that guy has a rifle and he's ready to fire it."

Here are ALL the reasons the police had to assume he was going to fire:
1) Full-size rifle
2) Hand on grip
3) Rifle not in package (as it would be if he was just shopping)
4) Strangely loitering in a secluded corner of the store

Here are the reasons they had to assume he wouldn't fire:
1)...

Again, you're all looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. The cops on scene didn't have that luxury. They DO NOT wait around to decide if a gun is an air rifle or not. If they see a full-size black rifle in someone's hand, they treat it as an immediate threat. If your hand is on the grip of that rifle, they treat it as an even more immediate threat. If you do anything but drop that rifle immediately after they yell at you, you're going to get shot because it takes literally FRACTIONS of a second for someone to fire a rifle if their hand is already on the grip. When they yelled, the muzzle climbed and they were not going to wait to find out what happened next.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:41 PM
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a reply to: FraggleRock

I must be drunk. Thanks for pointing that out FraggleRock!



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:45 PM
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The dead guy does not have the benefit of hindsight, to him it was a toy and he was probably treating it as such.

I believe I would respond differently to "HEY" (I'd turn and look) versus "POLICE, DROP THE WEAPON!" (I'd probably drop my toy).



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:45 PM
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originally posted by: Yeahkeepwatchingme
The police were clearly in the wrong. My fellow ATS members have proved it.

As for the jury, judge, review boards, fellow officers, family members, buddies, possible lodge members, boyfriends....nope. He's free and clear!

So if you aspire to become a Ted Bundy you don't have to stalk sorority girls you just become a police officer! Protection, fraternal brothership, endless targets. Plus you get a gun. How could you lose?


Yeah, you should base your decisions off of the opinion of ATS members instead of people who actually have all the facts... brilliant. Good luck going through life with that mentality.

In response to your earlier statement about the video, you apparently watched a different video... there were 2 shots fired. You claimed he was shot multiple times as he moved around. You need to A) watch with sound and B) look more closely at what's happening. You have completely misinterpreted the video.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:49 PM
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originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Answer

Life doesn't work like the movies.



Oh I think we know who may have seen too many movies that day....



When the muzzle of your weapon moves EVEN A TINY BIT like you're going to point it at someone, you will be shot. Police don't wait around to see what's going to happen, they stop the threat.


They had taken up hidden positions behind the edge of the store shelves and had a perfect line of fire.


They yelled at him, the muzzle started to come up, he got shot. The cops didn't know if he was carelessly swinging it around like a baton



From their hidden position behind the shelving they could have observed him first then decided what to do next or yell.


Well if only you had been there, the situation would have been handled properly right?

Their positions behind the shelves left them open to fire. Police know this, you apparently don't.

If it were so clean cut, the officers involved would not have been cleared so quickly. You can cry foul all you want but it doesn't make it true.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:50 PM
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a reply to: Answer




When you have a RIFLE IN YOUR HAND, yes!


I'm just gonna say this. He wasn't holding anyone hostage, he wasn't acting in a threatening manner, he was standing in the the isle of a Wal-Mart attending to his own business with a piece of merchandise SOLD inside of the store. It is the responsibility of a responding officer to approach the situation with common sense and reason. Neither of those things were achieved, nothing was done to avert this.

He was startled by the military approach and if the gun moved it was out of most likely sheer terror because this shouldn't of happened in the first place. Those cops are murderers, the piece of garbage that called 911 is a murderer and they need to be brought to justice by any means necessary.

Best case scenario is that the DoJ brings them up on charges of violating his civil rights. As much as I despise Eric Holder and the Obama administration, maybe they can do some good here because those cops need to go to prison.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Answer
What you see is Mr. Crawford standing in the aisle with A RIFLE OF SOME TYPE that looks exactly like a standard military-style rifle. The police had no way to know it's an air rifle


Try something like

THIS IS THE POLICE, DROP YOUR WEAPON!




?

Then when he complied they would have found out that the RIFLE OF SOME TYPE that looks exactly like a standard military-style rifle was sold at the very store they were at.

No?



Life doesn't work like the movies.

When the muzzle of your weapon moves EVEN A TINY BIT like you're going to point it at someone, you will be shot. Police don't wait around to see what's going to happen, they stop the threat.

They yelled at him, the muzzle started to come up, he got shot. The cops didn't know if he was carelessly swinging it around like a baton or if he was about to bring it up and start firing. That's what the video shows and that's why the cops were cleared of any wrongdoing.


So its a crime punishable by death to attempt to turn in the direction of someone that is yelling at you?

Wow.


When you have a RIFLE IN YOUR HAND, yes!


Even if it's a BB rifle?

I mean the guy wasn't even given a chance to tell them that it was a BB gun.


Again, you live in the real world.

If you're holding a rifle by its grip and the muzzle raises, any rational person will assume you plan to fire. There are MANY ways to hold a weapon that are non-threatening. Hand on the grip is a firing position.

If a person sees another person holding a black rifle by its grip, they don't think "oh, I'm sure that's just a BB gun and he's not planning to do anything bad." The first thought through any rational person's head would be "that guy has a rifle and he's ready to fire it."

Here are ALL the reasons the police had to assume he was going to fire:
1) Full-size rifle
2) Hand on grip
3) Rifle not in package (as it would be if he was just shopping)
4) Strangely loitering in a secluded corner of the store

Here are the reasons they had to assume he wouldn't fire:
1)...

Again, you're all looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. The cops on scene didn't have that luxury. They DO NOT wait around to decide if a gun is an air rifle or not. If they see a full-size black rifle in someone's hand, they treat it as an immediate threat. If your hand is on the grip of that rifle, they treat it as an even more immediate threat. If you do anything but drop that rifle immediately after they yell at you, you're going to get shot because it takes literally FRACTIONS of a second for someone to fire a rifle if their hand is already on the grip. When they yelled, the muzzle climbed and they were not going to wait to find out what happened next.


I just watched the video again.

Before the cops announced their presence the guy with the rifle appeared to be swinging it back and forth next to his right leg. No one was being threatened or being held hostage, and by the movement of the rifle he sure as hell wasn't pointing it at anyone.

The Cops appeared to be hiding behind another shelf, that appeared to be some 10-15 feet away.

If you can't see how the Police Department could have handled this in a different manner, then I don't know.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you're just playing devil's advocate, and not actually trying to justify the actions of the Police.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:53 PM
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a reply to: Answer

Why give commands if you do not plan to give the person a chance to follow them?


Additionally, preliminary autopsy findings show that Crawford was shot in the back of his left arm and in his left side, which supports the claim that he was never even facing the officers that shot him, as shown in the video. These facts support a narrative that officers never made verbal contact with Crawford, but instead simply gunned him down on sight.


The gun was in his left hand. So if the muzzle is climbing in the direction of the officers, who are approaching from his left side, before the shots are fired, how does Mr. Crawford get shot in the back of the very arm the gun is in?



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: Answer

Think about this: The cops enter a high stress situation. How does that affect a normal human being's reactions? If you don't know ... they fall back on the way they've been trained. One could very safely assume these cops were trained to kill anything they perceived as a threat. That's you, that's me, that's everyone not wearing a cop's uniform. Are you really comfortable with that?

First they came ...



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:55 PM
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originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: Yeahkeepwatchingme
a reply to: Answer

It's a murder. Plain and simple. Committed by murderers. No one cares about their confusion or lack of facts. We as citizens care about their utter lack of safety and human rights.


Stop talking out of your butt.

You have already admitted you don't have all the facts so you have NO justification for your claims. Stop crucifying people when you don't even know what happened.


Maybe YOU should stop talking, period? Are you somehow closely and intimately associated with the case? Do you live in the area? Do you have other information that the rest of us do not?

Didn't think so. This has been in the news where I live, on a daily, then weekly, and now daily basis again. See my other response on the reporting skills of the local media and why I'm NOT surprised the cops were not indicted. Had they sent the case to Columbus or Cincinnati for a grand jury, I bet it would have been different...however they picked Xenia, Ohio. I don't have to link the sites to tell you the demographic in Xenia. It's 82% white. Combine THAT with the biased reporting that went on after this incident and OF COURSE there was no indictment by the grand jury in Xenia!

Had that been a white young adult male in the store playing with a pellet gun? The manager may have been called...not the police.

Btw, I watched the video and NEVER saw him threaten or wave the gun around, nor did I see him point it at ANYONE. So, before you come back with one more of your troll-like responses, just know that I have watched the video, followed the story since it occurred, and yes, I do feel the police straight up executed a man in the Beavercreek, Ohio Wally World. Jesus, what a TERRIBLE way to die.

Btw, he wasn't the ONLY one who died that night in the Walmart...

I can only pray that this Justice Department actually investigates this incident and execution the way it should be investigated.

Honestly, how many times have you been in the store looking at something totally oblivious to what's going on around you? Couple that with being on the phone and not realizing that you're doing anything "execution worthy" by playing with a TOY gun...

Oh, here's a link just for you Answer man: Internet Troll Study
edit on 24-9-2014 by lovebeck because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:56 PM
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a reply to: Answer


Here are ALL the reasons the police had to assume he was going to fire:
1) Full-size rifle
2) Hand on grip
3) Rifle not in package (as it would be if he was just shopping)
4) Strangely loitering in a secluded corner of the store

It appears he was talking on a cell phone, not "strangely loitering". There is no reason the police had to shoot so quickly, as suggested by other members here, they could have kept themselves hidden behind the shelves or they could have even used the loudspeaker. The way they handled the situation gave the suspect absolutely no chance for survival. Obviously he was going to turn towards someone yelling at him, especially if they don't identify themselves as police. If their response is to shoot before he has even turned enough to see who is yelling at him, then how could he possibly get out alive? If you think this type of tactic can be justified, you're basically saying that killing innocent people is ok even though there are more rational ways to handle the situation without anybody having to be killed.
edit on 24/9/2014 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:58 PM
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originally posted by: Helious


I don't have an attachment to LEOs. I have an attachment to rational thought instead of "burn em at the stake!" herd mentality that's so common here.


Rational thought would tell you that instead of pissing in your pants like an 8 year old girl at the sight of a BB gun and killing innocent people on the word of somebody you don't know who called 911 with unknown intentions, you instead may do some actual police work.

Or, in the place of rational thought, you can just kill people indiscriminately and then hide behind a badge like the coward that your are.


I think the police were in the wrong here, but that BB gun is not a toy and it doesn't look like one. I really freaking hope everyone here would call the cops if they saw someone inside a store dicking around with what looks like a real gun.

It also shouldn't matter what a 911 caller says. The police have to deal with tons of ridiculous calls. "There's an alien shooting people with a ray gun!", "My neighbor just proved he was a reptillian Jew, I saw him blink both eyes!". Stop talking about the 911 caller. The police should have known better, because 911 callers are idiots half the time. I'm AGREEING the cops were in the wrong, but so many people don't seem to get WHY.

Those two talking points aren't important.

They screwed up royally.

That's on the police, not on the caller, not on the gun, it's just on the officer(s) who shot first and gave no time for a surrender.

I want to agree with people but you guys aren't acting like the police in question aren't 100% culpable. THEY ARE. This isn't about the freaking gun or it's realism (and I would shoot someone that pointed a neon green gun at me), it's not about the caller (who should have no influence over police procedure). It's about the responding officer(s) that screwed up royally.

Pissing in your pants at the sight of a BB gun my ass. They were obviously wrong, but if that thing was pointed at me I would shoot too. It doesn't look like "just a BB gun". The other day when I was at a gunshop there was a pretty pink revolver.

Quit arguing stupid points. I agree the cop(s) were in the wrong, but so many people are just making idiotic statements. Are you really going to say that if I paint the tip of my guns orange the police should treat them like toys? LOL, just joking, AR-15 flash suppressor is orange so it's not real.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:02 PM
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originally posted by: Answer

Well if only you had been there, the situation would have been handled properly right?


Yeah like I havent heard that before here at ATS>



Their positions behind the shelves left them open to fire. Police know this, you apparently don't.



It's a defensive position. They knew exactly what to do to protect themselves.

You said earlier in one of you previous and NOTE now edited reply.


Watch closely and you see the muzzle coming up as he turns toward the police.


Then you post


I did not say "he points the rifle at the officers." I said "the muzzle starts to come up." That's all it takes because if you wait for the rifle to be fully pointed, it's too late.


I can see why they questioned you.


The cops didn't know if he was carelessly swinging it around like a baton or if he was about to bring it up and start firing. That's what the video shows and that's why the cops were cleared of any wrongdoing.


He was swinging it back and forth in a non threatening manner. I'm sorry, I was on the fence when I first read about the story and gave the cops the benefit of the doubt, My nephew is a cop, but having watched the video it's pretty obvious the cops could have handled it much better.






If it were so clean cut, the officers involved would not have been cleared so quickly. You can cry foul all you want but it doesn't make it true.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: muse7

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Answer
What you see is Mr. Crawford standing in the aisle with A RIFLE OF SOME TYPE that looks exactly like a standard military-style rifle. The police had no way to know it's an air rifle


Try something like

THIS IS THE POLICE, DROP YOUR WEAPON!




?

Then when he complied they would have found out that the RIFLE OF SOME TYPE that looks exactly like a standard military-style rifle was sold at the very store they were at.

No?



Life doesn't work like the movies.

When the muzzle of your weapon moves EVEN A TINY BIT like you're going to point it at someone, you will be shot. Police don't wait around to see what's going to happen, they stop the threat.

They yelled at him, the muzzle started to come up, he got shot. The cops didn't know if he was carelessly swinging it around like a baton or if he was about to bring it up and start firing. That's what the video shows and that's why the cops were cleared of any wrongdoing.


So its a crime punishable by death to attempt to turn in the direction of someone that is yelling at you?

Wow.


When you have a RIFLE IN YOUR HAND, yes!


Even if it's a BB rifle?

I mean the guy wasn't even given a chance to tell them that it was a BB gun.


Again, you live in the real world.

If you're holding a rifle by its grip and the muzzle raises, any rational person will assume you plan to fire. There are MANY ways to hold a weapon that are non-threatening. Hand on the grip is a firing position.

If a person sees another person holding a black rifle by its grip, they don't think "oh, I'm sure that's just a BB gun and he's not planning to do anything bad." The first thought through any rational person's head would be "that guy has a rifle and he's ready to fire it."

Here are ALL the reasons the police had to assume he was going to fire:
1) Full-size rifle
2) Hand on grip
3) Rifle not in package (as it would be if he was just shopping)
4) Strangely loitering in a secluded corner of the store

Here are the reasons they had to assume he wouldn't fire:
1)...

Again, you're all looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. The cops on scene didn't have that luxury. They DO NOT wait around to decide if a gun is an air rifle or not. If they see a full-size black rifle in someone's hand, they treat it as an immediate threat. If your hand is on the grip of that rifle, they treat it as an even more immediate threat. If you do anything but drop that rifle immediately after they yell at you, you're going to get shot because it takes literally FRACTIONS of a second for someone to fire a rifle if their hand is already on the grip. When they yelled, the muzzle climbed and they were not going to wait to find out what happened next.


I just watched the video again.

Before the cops announced their presence the guy with the rifle appeared to be swinging it back and forth next to his right leg. No one was being threatened or being held hostage, and by the movement of the rifle he sure as hell wasn't pointing it at anyone.

The Cops appeared to be hiding behind another shelf, that appeared to be some 10-15 feet away.

If you can't see how the Police Department could have handled this in a different manner, then I don't know.

I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that you're just playing devil's advocate, and not actually trying to justify the actions of the Police.




I'm absolutely justifying the actions of the police.

They were told by dispatch he "has a rifle and is pointing it at people, children walking by" and "he was seen loading the rifle."

They round the corner and see him standing there with the rifle. They yell, the muzzle starts to come up, they assume he's going to fire so they shoot him. Police have no requirement to wait until they're fired upon.

Those are the facts. You can't base the shooting on anything more than that because those are the facts the police had at the time. You can say "it was an air rifle" and "it was sold in the store" and "he was 'harmlessly' waving it around" but that doesn't change ANYTHING because the police were not aware of any of that at the time of the shooting.

His behavior was incredibly bizarre because he should have known that a very realistic rifle being waved around by its grip would not be taken as harmless by any rational person. Part of me wonders if this was suicide by cop but that's my own opinion and has no real bearing on the discussion.
edit on 9/24/2014 by Answer because: (no reason given)



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