It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

BREAKING: Video Finally Released of Cops Shooting Man with a Toy Gun in Wal-Mart

page: 15
82
<< 12  13  14    16  17  18 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:55 PM
link   
a reply to: Shredder36

pathetic trigger-happy goons seem to be the cop norm in america




posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:19 AM
link   
a reply to: Answer

Do you even realize that one of the "facts" you claim everyone else is ignoring contradicts everything else you've been saying?



4. Walmart managers were aware of Crawford walking around and were trying to formulate how to approach him as the police were arriving because they thought he could be mistaken for a shooter.


Let's look more closely at that fact of yours:
The Walmart managers were aware he was walking around and wanted to approach him before he COULD BE MISTAKEN for a shooter.

Walmart security and management knew it was not a real gun and the guy was not a threat. If ANYONE had bothered to contact the store they would also have known. It seems pretty logical that dispatch at least should have made contact with a Manager to inform them about the possible shooter and let them know cops were on the way. Heck, the cops should have asked dispatch if they had talked to Walmart security or made contact with security themselves to find out the status of the situation!



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:24 AM
link   

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

Spot on.. I think anyone calling for their heads, etc. etc. need to try it once on dangerous call with a armed person, then we can have this discussion again. Walk a mile as they say.



And if my granny had wheels, she'd be a wagon. If I'd shot people on as little pretext in the Army as cops can get away with here, I'd have had a lot more NJPs than I did.

"what if he might have shot me if I didn't just gun him down first" seems a bit stretchy in terms of an excuse.


Not quite sure where you're coming from all I am advocating is before we blame the cops for every instance of a shooting, we should try it once, maybe even twice. Then lets see if you feel the same way. If you're ex military then you know hesitating can get you a dirt nap. Hopefully you granny doesn't have wheels.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:37 AM
link   

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

Not quite sure where you're coming from all I am advocating is before we blame the cops for every instance of a shooting, we should try it once, maybe even twice. Then lets see if you feel the same way. If you're ex military then you know hesitating can get you a dirt nap. Hopefully you granny doesn't have wheels.


What I'm saying is that there's a difference between hesitation and failure to assess.

And yeah, I'm no stranger to 'dynamic entry'. But, except for the odd circumstance, you often can't bang your way into a situation and just shoot everything breathing on the pretext that 'might have shot me if I didn't shoot him first' in order to make the job easier.

And again, I guarantee you if you have someone with no ill intent and you surprise them from behind, they will turn toward you and say 'what?'. That's not an excuse to mow them down, YOU caused that, it's a reflex.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:51 AM
link   

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

Not quite sure where you're coming from all I am advocating is before we blame the cops for every instance of a shooting, we should try it once, maybe even twice. Then lets see if you feel the same way. If you're ex military then you know hesitating can get you a dirt nap. Hopefully you granny doesn't have wheels.


What I'm saying is that there's a difference between hesitation and failure to assess.

And yeah, I'm no stranger to 'dynamic entry'. But, except for the odd circumstance, you often can't bang your way into a situation and just shoot everything breathing on the pretext that 'might have shot me if I didn't shoot him first' in order to make the job easier.

And again, I guarantee you if you have someone with no ill intent and you surprise them from behind, they will turn toward you and say 'what?'. That's not an excuse to mow them down, YOU caused that, it's a reflex.


This is often the advantage of the military they misson plan, they know the area the targets, etc. etc. 911 gets a call in this case from someone saying a guy with a gun is pointing it a a child. Between the adrenalin rush seeing the guy with the gun, remaining calm isn't always so easy. You should know that better than anyone else doing dynamic entry with possible bad guys on the other side of the door. I wouldn't second guess you after the fact either.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:57 AM
link   
a reply to: Bedlam




originally posted by: MarlinGrace

Not quite sure where you're coming from all I am advocating is before we blame the cops for every instance of a shooting, we should try it once, maybe even twice. Then lets see if you feel the same way. If you're ex military then you know hesitating can get you a dirt nap. Hopefully you granny doesn't have wheels.


This goes right along with what I just posted in another thread, and you pointed out what I think is a big problem with the new police mentality. Many LEO are ex-military now. However, they don't realize that the citizens they are sworn to protect and serve are not all armed enemy combatants in the Middle East.

The reality is that police officer is not even one of the top 10 most dangerous jobs.



According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 111 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty in 2013. Thirty-three of them died as a result of gunfire, while 46 officers died in traffic accidents.


The leading cause of death in the line of duty last year was TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS.



In a 2011 report, the International Association of Chiefs of Police called the deaths "unacceptable," and made a number of recommendations. Among them are increasing driver training for new officers, adopting policies to reduce texting and other distractions, and to conduct research on speed of law enforcement officers as well as fatigue as a factor in fatal officer crashes.


Given the number of LEO across the country, I don't think 33 deaths in a year from gunfire justifies the excuse that they feared for their lives from American citizens.

Traffic Crashes Leading Cause of Police Deaths in 2013

National Law Enforcement - Breakdown of LEO deaths by year



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 02:38 AM
link   
thank you for this, this is really messed up....poor kid....very very sad....my thoughts to the family....a reply to: Shredder36




posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:44 AM
link   
False Report to a Peace Officer


Filing a false police report can lead to multiple criminal consequences. Many states call this charge "false report to a peace officer." It is one of the few types of speech that is not constitutionally protected. Lying to a law enforcement officer can result in a criminal conviction.

Depending on where you live and the extent of the deception, the criminal charge of filing a false police report can either be a misdemeanor or a felony. Cases that cause less inconvenience to police and other authorities tend to be classified as misdemeanors, while people who create greater confusion or harm by filing a false police report may face felony charges.

Read more: criminal-law.freeadvice.com...
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @FreeAdviceNews on Twitter | freeadvice on Facebook

I believe any person that can read can clearly understand the fact that the coward idiot who made the 9-1-1 call who has admitted to lying to a peace officer is in fact easily guilty of the crime.

Felony Murder Rule

The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the commission of a felony, the offender can be charged with murder. Second, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony.

The idea of the felony murder rule arose in 1716, with William Hawkins' Treatise of Pleas of the Crown, during his work on English criminal law. Hawkins reasoned that malice was implicit in a crime that, “necessarily tends to raise Tumults and Quarrels, and consequently cannot but be attended with the danger of personal hurt.”, thus, "this rule should extend to killings in the course of felonies à fortiori."


Now The People of the State of Michigan must prove that his lies intended for a lethal confrontation with law enforcement. That will probably be a bit more difficult to do, but he will have a hard time coming up with a believable excuse as to why he made those lies or whether he knew such actions could cause harm.


There is also precedent in Florida somewhat related.

Ryan Joseph Holle - Pensacola, Florida
Holle, who had given the police statements in which he seemed to admit knowing about the burglary, was convicted on August 3, 2004,[3] of first-degree murder under a legal doctrine known as the felony murder rule. The doctrine broadens murder liability for participants in violent felonies to include a killing by an accomplice. As the prosecutor David Rimmer explained: "No car, no murder." The victim's father, Terry Snyder, concurred: "It never would have happened unless Ryan Holle had lent the car. It was as good as if he was there."[2]

Statements in defense[edit]

Allen said in a pretrial deposition that all Holle did "was to say, 'Use the car.' I mean, nobody really knew that girl was going to get killed. It was not in the plans to go kill somebody, you know." Holle had no criminal record. He had lent his car to Allen countless times before. In a 2007 interview with The New York Times, Holle stated that "I honestly thought they were going to get food," adding that "When they actually mentioned what was going on, I thought it was a joke." He added that he was naive, and had been drinking all night, so he "didn't understand what was going on."[2]


So even a guy who claimed to have no idea of a crime is going to be committed got life in prison, granted he foolishly turned down a ten year sentence.
Lets see what Michigan has


The felony murder rule was abolished in the state of Michigan by the 1980 decision People v. Aaron. The court reasoned that the commission of a felony should only be used as a grading factor between first and second degree murder, and not something that could independently make an offense punishable as murder.[1]


Well there you have it. The bastard is going to get away unless the Feds can snap him up. I think the cops should at least get negligent homicide for is clearly a horribly poor assessment of the situation, WHEN THERE WAS NO REPORT OF SHOTS FIRED!!!! These guys were jerks pure and simple. From the cops who poorly handled the situation, to the man who lied for yet to be proven intents.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 05:39 AM
link   

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE
This world is just NUTS!!!


What's nuts are Americans - all of the shootings all over the place and they wonder why someone panics when they see a man wondering around a grocery store carrying what looks like an automatic rifle.

Why on Gods green earth would anyone be wondering around a store with a weapon, real or toy?

Only in America would this be considered normal.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 05:43 AM
link   

originally posted by: Power_Semi

Why on Gods green earth would anyone be wondering around a store with a weapon, real or toy?


You got to get to the checkout counter somehow. I dunno - was he buying the display model?

And then, just thinking about it from my POV, I would not necessarily consider a BB gun to be a 'weapon'. So I might not think of it that way carrying it out. I don't practice muzzle control on squirt guns, for instance.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 05:54 AM
link   

originally posted by: halfpint0701\
Many LEO are ex-military now. However, they don't realize that the citizens they are sworn to protect and serve are not all armed enemy combatants in the Middle East.


You don't have free trigger time to shoot random civilians over there, either, unless you're private contractor.

In fact, if you aren't pretty damned discriminating (to a point that's absurd now, IMHO) you will end up NJPed or court martialed.

I consider most former service LEOs to be the more sane ones. I've never gotten an unfair shake from an MP, or unnecessary horse#, nor an over the top attitude. Unless said MP was a cop or prison guard prior to service.

The worst by far were prison guards in private life, #ed up, and went MP in the military in their late 20s. You go look at Bagram or similar, the ringleaders were generally LEOs or corrections prior to going military.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 10:57 AM
link   
I know that you have also been following this closely and I appreciate all the info you've added.

I just have an issue with the Baby Mama's statement. That's technically heresy as he is no longer alive to defend what she said he said no and the events surrounding the incident.

I thought he had ear buds in and couldn't hear the cops give a command at that time? Is there evidence to show that they were actually still on the phone at the time of the shooting?

I wish someone would post the documents surrounding the shooting as well. I know it's public record, but it don't feel like digging into Greene County records using an iPad (my poor MacBook is sick again).




posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 11:01 AM
link   
a reply to: DYepes

Thanks for all that info but this's happened in OHIO...not Michigan.

I saner a response to the OP but I guess he never edited it. This happened in Beavercreek, Ohio a suburb of Dayton.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 11:23 AM
link   

originally posted by: Power_Semi
Why on Gods green earth would anyone be wondering around a store with a weapon, real or toy?


Because the store sells them. That's why.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 11:38 AM
link   
a reply to: Elton

Agreed I didn't observe much of a warning from the cops. However, other observations.

1. Toy gun: A pellet gun is more related to a real gun than a toy, as they are designed to look real.

2. Common Sense: Lack of it by the victim. Looking at the video he appears to be attracting attention and the wrong kind of attention swinging a gun around especially with all the shooting as of late.

3. Monday Quarterbacks: Cops have been killed in less insignificant situations like pulling someone over for speeding or busted tail lights. Cops are shown training clips of these type of accidents as well and ecouraged to always be on high alert. Not justifying it , but i think its easy to observer how bad consequences are going to happen when cops show up and the accused is holding a life like weapon.

4. What do we expect: Cops are typically dealing with the worst kind of people or people that don't like being told they aren't above the law. Then the incentives to possibly be killed on the job does not match what cops are being paid .

Hence you are giving a gun to someone who is willing to risk their life for an average pay which they could get elsewhere without the risk. Then they are constantly interacting with people who don't like them. So a us against them mentality flourishes . So yeah what could go wrong?

I don't necessarily blame the cops solely. I blame the people for lack of common sense, courtesy, and the system which is designed for the wrong people to be authorized to carry weapons to protect us.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 11:49 AM
link   
He didn't even turn I see cop until being shot.

Are the shots in the audio from video feed audio or police scanner layered on top?


a reply to: Elton



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:10 PM
link   
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme




Nobody's going to listen to you defending a murderer. No one wants to listen to a person who said if that was their family member they would think the cop is in the right. That's not rational, that's sick.



So are you saying that if it's your family member, they did nothing wrong or used poor judgement, aka., "common sense"? Does that apply to everyone's family or just a lucky chosen few? And if the cop is someone's family member too (I'm betting he is, just a hunch), then does that automatically absolve him from responsibility as well? Well, case closed then....because both sides were clearly showing their stupidity here.

The cops should be charged with something, because it sure didn't appear that they gave much warning before opening fire on the guy. The way they seem to be churning out new cops these days like some kind of.....well...donut factory, seeing these morons overreact is, sadly, not all that shocking. Yes, they need to be punished; not just for being far too ready to just shoot someone, but for endangering other bystanders in the process as well. This kind of idiocy happens all too often these days, and I hope they are brought to bear for their transgressions. And don't even get me started on the troglodyte who placed the 911 call.

But having said all that, what on Earth was this young man thinking, waving a weapon around like that? BB rifles can be extremely dangerous. They can kill people. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen. At the very least, they can cause serious injury. I have a cousin who was permanently blinded by one. This is a 22 yr old grown-ass man, who most definitely should have known better than that. And what did he do when they shouted at him? He raised the weapon at them. Really??? How could anyone think that a maneuver like that would net a positive response? Was he really just that dumb, or was he trying to get them to shoot him? There are several things that just don't make sense about this whole thing.

But bottom line, if he had never picked up the rifle and been walking around the store waving it and pointing it, he would never have caught the "ex marine"'s attention in the first place and the cops never would have been dispatched. The stunning overreaction of the officers would never have been, and this guy would most likely still be walking around on the planet. It's a tragedy, and one that could have been prevented by both sides. I don't think it's really necessary to condemn someone for pointing out, correctly, that the unfortunate man's own actions contributed to his death. It doesn't make it any less horrific to simply state the obvious.



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:32 PM
link   
a reply to: Answer

I agree with this. I don't know what that guy was doing standing there for 3-5 minutes, but he was acting very strangely. That gun looks real, acting weird in a public place...ect is what lead him to get shot. The cops did seem pretty focused on "Let's rush and shoot this guy", but he did should have dropped that gun.

He didn't deserve to get shot, but the police kind of did their job here. Walmart is to blame for having an item like that, out of the packaging, for anyone to just pick up. Crawford is second to blame for his odd behavior and for just picking up something like that and walking around with it. The cops could have done better instead of just bum rushing him, but they weren't at fault IMO.

Crazy world in which we live in that you can get shot with basically no heads up for just attempting to shop lift (I think that is what was going on) in walmart. If that was a 11 year old white boy, I don't anyone would have said anything....so I'm sure Crawfords race didn't do him any favors here.
edit on 26-9-2014 by Nowyouseeme because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:39 PM
link   
a reply to: Answer

Really? Really? You need to stop using logic!

Most people forget that cops are people, too. They have families they want to go back to at the end of their shift.

Cops come in to a store after a report of an armed suspect, find suspect and make contact, suspect caught unaware raises the rifle and gets shot because he made a motion as if to point and shoot his weapon. Everyone wants the cops head because, "ermergerd cops r bad ppl who jus want to kill n oppress!"



posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:41 PM
link   
a reply to: Shredder36

Looks like a straight up execution to me. The problem with our police force now is that they shoot first and ask questions later. Seriously its not like he was aiming it at people, even if it was a real gun. There is no excuse for this. This has to stop, it probably wont until they kill someone famous, or elite. Because its not just African Americans getting killed like this, they are shooting first and asking later with everybody. Personally i think a part of this is from the fact that a lot of our police are people than have come back from Afghanistan and Iraq, and over there if you wait to shoot, you die. But this is America, not there. Anybody remember those old cop shows where the Ignorant recient immigrant wont trust the police because where he came from were corrupt, or were cowboys who killed people instead of helping? WE ARE BECOMING THAT COUNTRY



new topics

top topics



 
82
<< 12  13  14    16  17  18 >>

log in

join