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BREAKING: Video Finally Released of Cops Shooting Man with a Toy Gun in Wal-Mart

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posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 10:08 AM
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originally posted by: muse7
The "former marine" that called 911 should be getting tried for murder


Strange thing, my son a former marine and now an Army Apache pilot came to visit, we went to Walmart and he put his gun in his back waistband. I told him he should not carry it into Walmart but he said with stuff he and his friends had seen and had happen he would not go anywhere without it.
I was afraid someone would see it (and it did show) and call the police and even though he was legal to carry a concealed weapon they would kill him more then likely.




posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 10:15 AM
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Man this is disturbing. I heard 2 shots right or did he shoot him a few more times once he went into a panic? I don't get why they just shot? I mean where was the warning to drop the gun or we'll shoot??



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 10:20 AM
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a reply to: Domo1
I agree with you. The guy who was killed wasn't too bright to be walking around swinging that gun while talking on his cell phone. To a bystander it looks like he was a loose cannon ready to go off. I'm not excusing the cops though for apparently opening fire with no warning. I'm just saying the guy was stupid for waltzing around with what looked like a real rifle. Walmart should keep the airguns locked up just as they do with regular firearms.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 10:49 AM
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originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: Domo1

Truthfully, they are very relative, ballistically, but pellets are far more accurate than bb's...



I have a RWS 34 that puts out a .177 at 1000 FPS. bb's aren't even close. Looks like a full blown rifle with a scope feels like one as well.


I didn't say bb's are as fast as pellets. Obviously, a round bb vs. a skirted pellet, will not retain as much pressure behind it.


And, my Ruger Air Hawk also shoots projectiles @ up to 1,000 feet per second...The key phrase being "up to"! Because the fancy little pellets that will go that fast are, in fact, much lighter than a standard copper bb. And, velocity is but one parameter when calculating ballistics.


I am very familiar with ballistics and calculating power factors being a former IPSC shooter, and hand loader. I call the RWS the squirrel master. I have loaded more ammo than I can count on a Dillon Press and had a ball shooting it.

BB - .77758692 grams
FPS - 500
VELl - 152
ENG. - 8.98

177 - .5183928 Grams
FPS - 1000
VEL - 304
Eng - 23.95

Terminal Ballistics for BB's versus .177 Pellet.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 10:49 AM
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a reply to: Mikeultra

Maybe the real dumb ones are the Walmart folks who decided it was smart to sell these toy guns?

I mean, just stop and think about it for a while. Why denigrate any customer for picking up a toy, irrespective if it's a toy gun or a pencil, and waving it around? Who cares if the victim is smart or not. That is not and should not be the issue here. The issue should center around the feasibility and common sense of Walmart even carrying and selling these toys. If these toys can cause panic and LEOs to execute on sight, then Walmart should be held fully accountable and be under the gun (no pun intended) for this.

It's hypocritical to blame a customer on ignorance when all they are doing is shopping.

Oh, and BTW, the morons who were suggesting he was about to shoplift the gun, what tea leaves did you all consult to come up with such balderdash?

SMH



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: Shredder36

No doubt John Crawford was a victim of over zealous cops, perhaps with varying degrees of racism. Beavercreek, Ohio is a suburb of Dayton. However, it's racial makeup as of 2010 (according to Census.gov) shows a very small minority of blacks - 88.5% white and 2.5% black with nearby Dayton, Ohio having a larger black population - 42.9% black, as of 2010.

It's the kind of attitude I expect from many white people (not all) in the Midwest, speaking from experience. Shoot first ask questions later being an obviously systemic LEO/police problem around the USA, and increasingly used when dealing with minorities with a small spill-over effect into "White America."



edit on 25-9-2014 by WCmutant because: fixing since meaning was not 100% coherent, thanks Ahabstar



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:15 AM
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a reply to: Hushabye

You could make a snap judgement based off this single post and assume I did not know that fact which is kinda like calling 911 over a guy with a BB gun or you could read my other posts in this thread and know that I live in the area and am familiar with the particulars in the incident.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:16 AM
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originally posted by: LDragonFire
America, land of the free,
Free to the power of the people in uniform!!!


We The People Are United,
The ones you never look in the eye,
We The People, The Uninvited,
The ones that see right through your lies,




posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: WCmutant

That is a mighty broad brush that you are painting with there. I had a "home invasion" of sorts once. To make a long story short, I smelled the alcohol on his breath and his confused demeanor upon my waking him up with some stern questioning and concluded that he was indeed a drunk college kid that made a mistake. I was nowhere near a gun or other lethal weapon at the time nor did I see the use for one as he was clearly unarmed and asleep.

Also, Beavercreek is a suburb of Dayton.
edit on 25-9-2014 by Ahabstar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:31 AM
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What I saw was officers of the law sworn to protect the public, execute a man plain and simple that is what is shown in the video.

Soon people I'm sure when SHTF theses roided out half retarded people who they accept on the force will realize that wearing black or blue with police on the front only make you a Bullseye for those you have continued to wrong.... The pubic can really only stand around and take so much.

Hey POLICE the only "TERRORISTS" or "GANG" I am afraid of we still pay your bills when the fake economy fails all that anger you have brought upon yourselves is going to be real. No badge gang membership or brotherhood in that case will I'm sure be able to help you then..... Should always remember who you were sworn to protect.....

SaneThinking



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:40 AM
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originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: muse7

No, he shouldn't. I would have called the cops too. Seeing a guy walking around with what appears to be a real rifle is cause for concern, and he was flipping that thing all over the place.

The cops are the ones who royally screwed up. Too much adrenaline not enough training.


The 911 caller exaggerated the actions of the young man - "he's pointing it at people, he's loading it" - based on that description, the cops obviously thought they were going to encounter an armed, dangerous man, probably about to engage in a mass shooting. I don't know the caller's state of mind - did he consciously exaggerate the call? His description didn't seem to match what the victim was doing.

Why he spiced it up, I don't know - but his description to 911 created a much higher sense of threat than was actually there. He bears a large responsibility in what happened, imo.

I'm afraid the victim contributed as well - he was rather oblivious, walking all around the store with what could anyone could mistake for a real weapon. That was a huge mistake and inappropriate.

There are many actions that are perfectly legal that could be misconstrued - while it's perfectly legal to wear a hoodie, sunglasses, and gloves on 100-degree-day, I wouldn't recommend walking into a bank dressed like that. Similarly, it might legal to put on a khaffiyeh, put a large backpack on your back, walk into a crowded mall, and start praying aloud - but people just might misinterpret your actions, and bad things may result.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: Jaellma
a reply to: Mikeultra

Maybe the real dumb ones are the Walmart folks who decided it was smart to sell these toy guns?

I mean, just stop and think about it for a while. Why denigrate any customer for picking up a toy, irrespective if it's a toy gun or a pencil, and waving it around? Who cares if the victim is smart or not. That is not and should not be the issue here. The issue should center around the feasibility and common sense of Walmart even carrying and selling these toys. If these toys can cause panic and LEOs to execute on sight, then Walmart should be held fully accountable and be under the gun (no pun intended) for this.

It's hypocritical to blame a customer on ignorance when all they are doing is shopping.

Oh, and BTW, the morons who were suggesting he was about to shoplift the gun, what tea leaves did you all consult to come up with such balderdash?

SMH


I don't believe Walmart's problem was selling BB guns, perhaps leaving them out in the open. I think the problem was 3 fold. 1. Walmart employees falsified information to LEO. 2. Patron should not have been wielding the rifle. In an open carry state I doubt licensed citizens would be brandishing their weapon(s) foolishly out in the open in public places or thus face similar fate. 3. The police officers in the case approached the situation based on info provided. Their aim was to take down the subject to avoid any potential victims or hostages in the situation or possibly avoid mass shooting. LEO's train consistently to hone their skills on ending threats. It's not every day you get a call that a suspect is pointing a gun at people and children as one employee recanted his statements.

The LEO in my opinion made a fatal mistake in assessing the situation. Upon arriving at the scene I agree you should respond to situations with the utmost caution as it also could be your last day on earth. But upon approaching the suspect it would have been appropriate to suggest to the suspect to put the gun down.

In fact what if this had been the situation; A mentally challenged teen with a mind of an 8yr old grabbed the gun and started to play with it as seen on TV. LEO's are called to the seen with a disobedient kid not responding and pointing the gun aimlessly at everyone making gun pop sounds.

The question becomes now what?

My opinion lock up the BB guns, don't brandish guns even if sold in the public market place, you normally wouldn't do this with knives either. Walmart should pay the family off and Walmar't employees prosecuted or fined for their negligence. LEO's should be required to view this tape or similar constantly to serve as a reminder of what can happen when you don't follow protocol.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:05 PM
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originally posted by: muse7
The "former marine" that called 911 should be getting tried for murder


That's probably the most ignorant comment I've seen on here so far.

Yes, it appears the cops acted hastily, but we don't hear what happened on the surveilence camera, so we can't know for sure. Just because he didn't react doesn't mean commands weren't given.

Also, if you saw someone walking around with a rifle like that in a store, wouldn't you at least wonder what was going on? My son has a M4-style bb gun, but the tip of it is bright orange. The tip of this rifle, from what I've seen on the news, did not have the orange tip. If my son's did not, you wouldn't know the difference between it and the real thing unless you were up close inspecting it. It's not the 911 caller's fault concerning how the police reacted to the call. To blame him is just asinine ignorance. But, sadly, you're obviously not the only one who can't separate emotion from logic on this site. Pity.

I'm not absolving the police from any wrongdoing at all, but I'm also not condemning them because I don't have access to any audio to know if they gave any commands. If not, this is pretty sh*tty, but if they did and he didn't respond, it's possilbe that they acted in accordance with SOP concerning this situation. That's the problem--we don't know for sure. But like I say, it looks pretty damning at this point...but the 911 caller did what he thought was right for the safety of the entire store with the information that he had.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: MarlinGrace


We're on the same side, brother...! I'm not looking for a fight...



But, you must admit, that semantics aside, in the world of ballistics, the net energy between the two are pretty relative, compared to the rest of the spectrum. That being said, I wouldn't want to get shot with ANYTHING! Not even a bb.








edit on 9/25/2014 by GoOfYFoOt because: removed text not applicable to the OP....



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:21 PM
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a reply to: squittles

Even if the weapon is on one's shoulder, it's still being pointed at people, not to forget that, even if it were a real firearm, the way he was carrying it is illegal even in an open-carry state (which Ohio is). Any person who has ever been on a shooting range knows that the weapon always points downrange, whether it's loaded or not and whether there are other people present or not--if there is no "downrage," then you carry the rifle with the bolt locked back and pointing down (at least, that's the safest method so that the muzzle isn't pointing at anyone). I don't care who you are, if you're not concerned when a non-oranged-tipped riffle is pointing your way, no matter how it's being held, you are walking the line of blissful ignorance, especially in a crowded place.

And for all we know (there is missing video evidence), he could have been messing with it in a way that looked like it was being loaded--it's not a far-fetched idea. Anyone looking to buy a gun--real, pellet or otherwise--checks out the weapon (not toy, but weapon) prior to purchase.

The point is, you don't know if his comments were exaggerations or not. I'm glad that you acknowledge that the victim did have some blame in the misidentification of both the weapon and his intentions with it, but to assume that the caller "bears a large responsibility in what happened" seems, in my estimation, to be a gross exaggeration because, in the end, we don't see the victim for the intirety that he has the weapon.

In the end, if something was done incorrectly, it is absolutely on the police--they should be able to handle a situation like this better than that. They should be trained to assess the situation prior to pulling a trigger.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: RobertDeniro

originally posted by: Jaellma
a reply to: Mikeultra

Maybe the real dumb ones are the Walmart folks who decided it was smart to sell these toy guns?

I mean, just stop and think about it for a while. Why denigrate any customer for picking up a toy, irrespective if it's a toy gun or a pencil, and waving it around? Who cares if the victim is smart or not. That is not and should not be the issue here. The issue should center around the feasibility and common sense of Walmart even carrying and selling these toys. If these toys can cause panic and LEOs to execute on sight, then Walmart should be held fully accountable and be under the gun (no pun intended) for this.

It's hypocritical to blame a customer on ignorance when all they are doing is shopping.

Oh, and BTW, the morons who were suggesting he was about to shoplift the gun, what tea leaves did you all consult to come up with such balderdash?

SMH


I don't believe Walmart's problem was selling BB guns, perhaps leaving them out in the open. I think the problem was 3 fold. 1. Walmart employees falsified information to LEO. 2. Patron should not have been wielding the rifle. In an open carry state I doubt licensed citizens would be brandishing their weapon(s) foolishly out in the open in public places or thus face similar fate. 3. The police officers in the case approached the situation based on info provided. Their aim was to take down the subject to avoid any potential victims or hostages in the situation or possibly avoid mass shooting. LEO's train consistently to hone their skills on ending threats. It's not every day you get a call that a suspect is pointing a gun at people and children as one employee recanted his statements.

The LEO in my opinion made a fatal mistake in assessing the situation. Upon arriving at the scene I agree you should respond to situations with the utmost caution as it also could be your last day on earth. But upon approaching the suspect it would have been appropriate to suggest to the suspect to put the gun down.

In fact what if this had been the situation; A mentally challenged teen with a mind of an 8yr old grabbed the gun and started to play with it as seen on TV. LEO's are called to the seen with a disobedient kid not responding and pointing the gun aimlessly at everyone making gun pop sounds.

The question becomes now what?

My opinion lock up the BB guns, don't brandish guns even if sold in the public market place, you normally wouldn't do this with knives either. Walmart should pay the family off and Walmar't employees prosecuted or fined for their negligence. LEO's should be required to view this tape or similar constantly to serve as a reminder of what can happen when you don't follow protocol.


Don't forget to add blame to the foolish and irresponsible caller who said the guy was brandishing his gun and LOADING it.

Walmart should be held financially responsible for this and compensate the victim's family. Unfortunately, not even a $billion can bring him back.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:32 PM
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originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: WCmutant

That is a mighty broad brush that you are painting with there. I had a "home invasion" of sorts once. To make a long story short, I smelled the alcohol on his breath and his confused demeanor upon my waking him up with some stern questioning and concluded that he was indeed a drunk college kid that made a mistake. I was nowhere near a gun or other lethal weapon at the time nor did I see the use for one as he was clearly unarmed and asleep.

Also, Beavercreek is a suburb of Dayton.


I'm sorry you misunderstood my intended meaning... I meant "shoot first ask questions later" regarding LEOs, not all people in the Midwest.

I did also say "nearby Dayton" and my original sentence, while not quite clear, did reference a "systemic problem around the USA." Which was meant to say systemic (i.e., system/LEO/government system) not the citizens as a whole. I have fixed it.
edit on 25-9-2014 by WCmutant because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: RobertDeniro

Perhaps this is a societal problem coupled with the absolute retardation from school/government. With all the anti-gun bulls#!t and zero-tolerance in schools there is no wonder people think that holding a weapon (gun) is like Call of Duty, Battle Field X, etc. They have no frame of reference of how to handle a gun.

Someone bought my son a Nerf dart gun for his birthday last year and I have always made sure he understands NEVER to point it at anyone, and he never has.

Unfortunately, gun safety starts with the parents. If the parents are negligent then it will filter to the kids.

I can honestly say, John Crawford III in the video was absolutely idiotic with the handling of the BB gun in the store - BUT that does not warrant a shoot on sight by cops in a Wal-Mart. And I would add that as idiotic as he was handling the BB gun, he never once looked menacing or threatening with it either.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 12:47 PM
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You can tell by the way he was holding that plastic rifle that he was up to no good... The cop acted appropriately...

~Said no one ever



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: WCmutant

It is an unfortunate place we find ourselves in post 9/11 and post Newtown Elementry in that we have traded freedom for security and have gained neither.

The MO of police officers now is to kill the bad guy. Our best bet for our own safety is to try not to be mistaken for a bad guy. People can this or that as reasons for how he died. We all have opinions, the cell phone is high on my list of contributing factors here. It prevented him from awareness of his surroundings.



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