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Putin warns Ukraine against implementing EU deal -letter

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posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:03 AM
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a reply to: DJW001


No; it's not okay if Israel does it either. You seem to have the same hypocritical attitude you accuse others of.

I think both are wrong...
The hypocrisy lies with the US government in this instance...
Nice try labelling me before it's established where I stand though, assumptions are always attractive...


Except that "the West" has not annexed part of Ukraine. The explicit threat was economic, the implicit threat is military. (And yes, "the West's" sanctions also imply eventual military action.)

I know, it's a shame really...


And Russia is trying to make it as difficult as possible for Ukraine to raise the cash it owes them through legitimate trade. Why is that, do you suppose?

I don't suppose anything, if you owe a debt don't expect any more assistance if you refuse to pay even a portion of the debt back...
That's how debt works!


We would offer to forgive the debt if Kyiv changed sides. Do you suppose that is what Putin is trying to do? I do. The point is, Putin does not want Ukraine to be neutral, Putin wants Ukraine to at least be a satellite, if not a part of the Russian Federation altogether.

I don't think they would forgive the debt...
I think they'd ramp up sanctions equivalent to what Russia is implying...
We have no proof that's what Putin wants either...
That's speculation and a conjectural anecdote!
edit on 24-9-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-9-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:38 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs


Nice try labelling me before it's established where I stand though, assumptions are always attractive...


You were the one projecting attitudes onto others:


Like Israel has annexed more than half of Palestine with US Dollars...

So it's more a case of it's ok unless it's Russia...



I don't suppose anything, if you owe a debt don't expect any more assistance if you refuse to pay even a portion of the debt back...
That's how debt works!


A wise creditor attempts to make it as easy for the debt to be repaid as possible. Why make it more difficult, unless it is the state of indebtedness that is the object?


I don't think they would forgive the debt...
I think they'd ramp up sanctions equivalent to what Russia is implying...
We have no proof that's what Putin wants either...
That's speculation and a conjectural anecdote!


You are speculating. The United States has a history of providing foreign aid and forgiving government debt. It is a diplomatic tool.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: DJW001


You were the one projecting attitudes onto others:

No I wasn't I was clearly just making a point...
So that's your reading comprehension that's come into play...
Now I'm showing attitude just so you know.


A wise creditor attempts to make it as easy for the debt to be repaid as possible. Why make it more difficult, unless it is the state of indebtedness that is the object?

Reneging on a debt numerous times will cause this, that's Ukraine's fault that Russia doesn't trust them anymore when it comes to monetary situations...


You are speculating. The United States has a history of providing foreign aid and forgiving government debt. It is a diplomatic tool.

I am speculating I thought we both were though, seeing as you set a precedent with that Putin assumption...
I'm aware of Americas fairness towards allies...
This is a slightly different situation...imo!
edit on 24-9-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Auto-Correct!!!



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 10:26 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs


No I wasn't I was clearly just making a point...
So that's your reading comprehension that's come into play...
Now I'm showing attitude just so you know.


Since you seem to think I have reading comprehension difficulties perhaps you should explain your point clearly. Who do you believe thinks that it is okay for Israel to annex Palestinian land? Does that excuse Russia for annexing Ukrainian land? Who are you saying believes or does not believe this?



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: DJW001

I clearly said "with US Dollars" implying the US government are complicit in annexation themselves...
I didn't accuse or assume anything about any ATS members...
My point is that the US has shown a double standard in this instance...
& I like the US, I like Obama, but that ideology is a real shame that Russia are below Israel when it comes to International Law...

No it doesn't excuse Russia in the slightest...
I'm glad your recent post wasn't presumptuous because it's something that grinds my gears and causes me to lash out...

No hard feelings I hope pal!
edit on 24-9-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: Auto-Correct!!!



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 10:57 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs


My point is that the US has shown a double standard in this instance...
& I like the US, I like Obama, but that ideology is a real shame that Russia are below Israel when it comes to International Law...


The "settlements question" is starting to tear a rift in US-Israel relations. There is already a movement to divest from Israeli companies. Part of the problem with Russia's actions is its scope. Israel has been nibbling away at Palestinian territory a few houses at a time. Putin has annexed an entire oblast in one go and may well have designs on the entire nation. If he succeeds in Ukraine, he may turn to other neighbors with the same intent.


No it doesn't excuse Russia in the slightest...


Agreed.


I'm glad your recent post wasn't presumptuous because it's something that grinds my gears and causes me to lash out...


Sorry if I was discourteous.


No hard feelings I hope pal!


No hard feelings.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: DJW001


The "settlements question" is starting to tear a rift in US-Israel relations. There is already a movement to divest from Israeli companies.

Hopefully my friend.
As I said I like the US, they'd have my fullest respect if they looked deeper into the situation!


Part of the problem with Russia's actions is its scope. Israel has been nibbling away at Palestinian territory a few houses at a time. Putin has annexed an entire oblast in one go and may well have designs on the entire nation. If he succeeds in Ukraine, he may turn to other neighbors with the same intent.

Truthfully said...
It's a large operation as opposed to the slow kill, hopefully Putin knows when to quit while he's ahead so to speak!


Sorry if I was discourteous.

No problem pal, me too!


No hard feelings.





posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:11 PM
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Russia might not have right to dictate to Ukraine but Russia sure does have power to do so.

Russia does have every right in the book to cancel all imports from Ukraine and that will hurt Junta's economy bad.

Russia has every right to shut down gas supplies to Ukraine till the time past debts are paid off or some agreement towards payments are made.

In this world power is what that matters.

Russia is a regional superpower and very big nuclear arsenal.

Junta is being repeatedly foolish and cruel to its own people. Mad bastards in politics bring the countries to their knees.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:12 PM
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originally posted by: charles1952
Dear Xcathdra,

Then if I'm reading you correctly, the controversy over this agreement will provide the excuse for Putin to take the entire country, claiming that it is the country's government which is somehow endangering Russia.

It will go into the list of justifications Russia is trying to use to justify its actions. Putin has made it clear he does not care what other countries think. what he does seem to care for, to an extent, is the Russian people. Even then its to the extent of justifying his actions. This will be used there.



originally posted by: charles1952
If I recall, we started putting sanctions on Russia about half a year ago. I don't remember one place in the last twenty years where sanctions have helped much. So Putin inflames this particular disagreement by screaming louder. He knows that our elections are two months away, and the party in power does want to be seen as aggressive.

The sanctions were put in place when Russia annexed Crimea. Every step of the way Russia has been given the opportunity to reverse its course on Ukraine and in return the sanctions will go away. The problem now is Putin is using the sanctions to build of national support. Once again the "evil west" is taking actions that will hurt Russia.

As for our elections, I don't think they are a factor. Congress could pass a declaration of war tomorrow and it would be meaningless if Obama is not going to act. Congress does not have the authority to issue orders to the military in this manner.




originally posted by: charles1952
Is there any way of preventing him from taking Ukraine? And, parenthetically, can't the several million government employees we have focus on more than one thing at a time?

There are 3 possibilities as I see it -
#1 - NATO / the EU / US / or other nations directly support Ukraine with military assistance.
#2 - The Russian people start seeing the big picture and apply pressure on that side (which is starting to occur).
#3 - Expanded sanctions sector wide based on calling Putin's bluff.
#4 - Putin finally sees there is no payoff in the actions he is taking. Its lose lose.

As for our government being able to do more than one thing at once... I have no faith in this administrations leadership, and as such the lack of leadership reflects in the various agencies. We seem to be overly concerned about things that make no sense while being hands off / outright ignoring other areas with a direct impact on the US.




originally posted by: charles1952
I know people have been saying it's Bush's fault. I wonder if there will be the same cry, it's Obama's fault, when the next president faces a violent and explosive world, and a nearly completely destroyed economy.

In the end its the fault of the American people for failing to hold our government accountable. Also we need to refrain from seeing this as only America's fault. Contrary to what people like to claim on this site the US is not soley responsible for a lot of what is going on.



originally posted by: charles1952
All right, Putin gets Ukraine by default. Are the Baltics the next move? Is NATO completely worthless?

With respect,
Charles1952

He does not get it by default... If Russia were to invade Ukraine completely and stop, no nation that matters is going to recognize it. Sanctions would come from more than the EU / US. Even Russia's veto at the UN would not save it from complete isolation that would make the cold war isolation look calm.

The coalition on Russia's side right now is in the same boat as some of the European nations involved in the sanctions. Recently Belarus bought all of the apples that Moldova ended up with from the Russian sanctions.

While Russia may be able to claim it can go on without sanctions affecting it, some of the Russia coalition nations could not. If they get dragged into this I do not see them willingly going down with Russia.

Russia recently violated the airspace of the Baltic nations... Finland, they have entered NORAD ADIZ and gave closed to within 50 miles of US sovereign airspace.

Personally speaking I think Russia is trolling for provocation. Its the same thing Hitler used when he invaded Poland and the same thing Stalin used when he invaded Finland. If Putin can provoke a response and claim the other side started it, with the caveat the Russian people buy it, he will use it as a catalyst to consolidate his hold on Russia while trying to go for the land grabs.

It will fail.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:16 PM
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a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Reread my post or read the website.

Every claim you made has been refuted with the exception of 1 and a half.

The one being Greece, where the situation on unemployment is somewhat correct on your part. I say somewhat because despite unemployment, the government has been taking in more cash than its spending.

The half was your comment on Spain and French unemployment being bad. While Spain and France have a higher unemployment rate than Russia, the increase in unemployment year over last has Russia in the lead. That indicator supports the other information that the Russia economy is taking a hit from the sanctions.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

You are confusing yourself and here is how.

NATO itself is not losing the war in Afghanistan. The political leadership of the NATO members involved in Afghanistan are doing that. It's equivalent would be Vietnam. The military was not at fault, the civilian leadership was. The Tet offensive was portrayed on TV as the allies getting their asses handed to them by North Vietnam. What they failed to report, or understand, is the Tet offensive was the first time North Vietnam came out of the jungles and engaged the allies head on. While North Vietnam's push resulted in the capture of a bunch of strategic points, the allies regained control over there areas after a short time, which was not reported. After that offensive the NVA went back to their guerrilla style tactics.

NATO supreme command can only work with what the member nations supply and allow.

As for the Afghan government they just agreed on a power sharing deal provided the election results remain unreleased. Why, I have no idea but the Afghan government made the decision.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:27 PM
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originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Nice lie Russia didn't and hasn't dominated Ukraine's economy and foriegn policy unless you consider a NATO Puppet into Ukraine whats that called again?


Really? Then please explain why Russia is interfering in the economic deal Ukraine has with the EU? Russia is stating Ukraine must remove 2k items that would hurt Russia because of increased competition with Europe in addition to the standards the EU applies on items, which Russia does not meet.

Russia controls uses its energy resources to put Ukraine at a disadvantage. It used the very same resources to get a better deal out of the former Crimea bases agreement.

Ukraine's entrance into NATO is 2 fold. First and foremost the people of Ukraine must decide if they want to join NATO and to what extent they want to cooperate with them. If they vote no, then its a moot point. But even here Russia is trying to force Ukraine into remaining "neutral" which only benefits Russia. So even in this area, Ukraine foreign policy, Russia is trying to dominate Ukraine's position.



originally posted by: charles1952
Oh thats right thats not America or EU/NATO dominating Ukraine's economy and nor its foriegn policy like on this EU deal right?

How could they when they just signed the EU agreement? As for US trade with Ukraine, it only amounts to about a billion dollars, if that.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:33 PM
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originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Russia is attempting to dictate to Ukraine?

Yes, see all the facts in posts above as well as other threads dealing with Ukraine.



originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
The one that is trying attempting to dictate to Ukraine, a sovereign nation has being NATO and America you

Being Ukraine decided not to join NATO in 2010 your premise is faulty.


originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Americans have no rights being in Ukraine neither your turkish Ottoman empire pals.

The only group ho has a right to deal with the internal issues of Ukraine is Ukraine. Not the US, the EU nor Russia. With that being said the Ukraine government has every right to ask nations to assist them. Just as the Russian side argued with the whole letter from Yanukovych.



originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
how to conduct its internal and foreign affairs, and now apparently their economy
Seems just how Obama is trying to conduct its internal and foreign affairs, and now apparently their economy onto Syria and Iran and of course other countries in the region.

Which has noting to do with this topic.



originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
What Putin says has wisdom compared that to your idiotic leaders in America.

Uhhm no. What Putin says is just as idiotic as to what my elected officials stats. The difference between you and I is I can admit when my government is in the wrong.



originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Even today i had seen on CBC claiming and are pushing it what NATO is doing in Eastern Europe as prompting Security yet when NATO expansion starts pushing further into Eastern near Russia.

Whether Ukraine joins NATO or not is up to Ukraine. Not NATO nor the EU nor Russia.



originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Thats no longer pushing security.

Neither is Russia's invasion of Ukraine.



originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
Thats western aggression agaisnt Russia and her interests into Europe

There was no aggression by Europe or NATO to Russia. The current situation is a RESULT of Russian actions.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:38 PM
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a reply to: BobAthome

The flaw in that argument is all international laws on the subject only apply to civilians / military who have been captured in an armed conflict. In this case its internal to Ukraine.

The United States, as well as many other nations, have equivalent laws.

Secondly -
Ukraine: Rebels Subject Civilians to Forced Labor



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:42 PM
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originally posted by: absente
Both the US and Russia should leave the Ukraine alone, meaning that real elections should be held in order to choose a legitimate government.

I can agree with this.



originally posted by: absente
As for Russia, I think that Putin watched and waited very patiently over the last 10 years, but it seems that we are getting to the point where the bear is getting angry - rightfully. Nato has no right to invite or even support Ukraine based on the agreement we all know about signed 30 years ago,


This I cant.
There is no agreement that prevented NATO from expanding East. What occurred was Germany telling Gorbachev NATO would not go east. Germany did not Speak for all NATO members. Even Gorbachev acknowledged that by stating he should have explored the verbal agreement in a more in depth manner.

Again - Ukraine is responsible for its own affairs. They can decide who they want to work with as well as if they wish to join any alliances.
edit on 24-9-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:46 PM
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originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Still waiting for evidence on this.


Soldiers’ Graves Bear Witness to Russia’s Role in Ukraine


SELIZOVO, Russia — In a far corner of a small cemetery outside this tiny village by the Oka River, a black flag proclaiming the military might of Russia’s tank forces ripples in the wind above the recently dug grave of Sgt. Vladislav A. Barakov. A photograph of the baby-faced soldier in full dress uniform sits propped against a wooden cross with a small plaque that says he died on Aug. 24. He was 21.

What the plaque does not say — and what no one wants to talk about — is how and where the young sergeant died: blown up in a tank while sent to fight in eastern Ukraine, where Russia’s leaders have denied any role other than as facilitators of peace.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

A man wore a Ukrainian flag around his shoulders during an antiwar rally in Moscow that drew thousands on Sunday.
Russians Protest Putin’s Stance on UkraineSEPT. 21, 2014
video
Ukraine, Caught in a ViseSEPT. 2, 2014

Sergeant Barakov, who served in Russia’s Sixth Tank Brigade, was one of dozens — some say hundreds — of Russian soldiers killed in action this summer. Their bodies have been returned in recent weeks to loved ones who in many cases had no idea where they were sent to fight, have received little information about how they died and, in any event, are being pressured not to talk about it. Some families have even been threatened with losing any compensation if they do.


click for remainder of article.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:47 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




There was no aggression by Europe or NATO to Russia. The current situation is a RESULT of Russian actions.


Its no wonder that NeoCons are coming here trying to prove your talking memo-points.


There was no aggression by Europe or NATO to Russia.
Turkish government sending there own military sub into the Blackkseae in Ukraine as a show of force sounds like an show of aggression force by Europe towards Russia.

Turkey shouldn't meddle in the affairs of other country issues as Turkey has millions of problems at home and abroad.





Whether Ukraine joins NATO or not is up to Ukraine. Not NATO nor the EU nor Russia.

Your clueless if you believe that petro poroshenko isn't an EU dog.





Uhhm no. What Putin says is just as idiotic as to what my elected officials stats. The difference between you and I is I can admit when my government is in the wrong.


The usual deflection i had seen thus far.




I can admit when my government is in the wrong.

So far now you have being using your government talking memo points when it comes to the matters of Ukraine.





Neither is Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Ukraine was and is always part of the Slavic traditions and history that go back before the emergence of your stupid war mongering nation.

Russia is protecting Ukraine from being itself invaded by your beloved NATO.


What would you say about NATO attacking Russia? liberating i would imagine.






Which has noting to do with this topic.

Oh it does because everything is connected if you haven't figured it with the ISIS and the current airstrikes in Syria.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:51 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Ah yes NY Times always citing western news outlets whom have being lying about Syria and Libya are we now? i have saved several articles since 2011.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:53 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

You are confusing yourself and here is how.

NATO itself is not losing the war in Afghanistan. The political leadership of the NATO members involved in Afghanistan are doing that. It's equivalent would be Vietnam. The military was not at fault, the civilian leadership was. The Tet offensive was portrayed on TV as the allies getting their asses handed to them by North Vietnam. What they failed to report, or understand, is the Tet offensive was the first time North Vietnam came out of the jungles and engaged the allies head on. While North Vietnam's push resulted in the capture of a bunch of strategic points, the allies regained control over there areas after a short time, which was not reported. After that offensive the NVA went back to their guerrilla style tactics.

NATO supreme command can only work with what the member nations supply and allow.

As for the Afghan government they just agreed on a power sharing deal provided the election results remain unreleased. Why, I have no idea but the Afghan government made the decision.


NATO itself is not losing the war in Afghanistan.
This is getting ironic.

Why dont you stay on topic we weren't talking about Vietnam here we are talking about Afghanistan.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:56 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

Ah yes once again the most reliable ever Human Rights, the same organization whom was calling for an military intervention into Syria.

According to my sources there is no evidence of Rebels forcing Civilians to Forced Labor other then ur beloved poroshenko and its government claims which arent based on reality,much like the allegation that his forces had destroyed the Russian aid convoy.



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