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You have all been duped.

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posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 01:34 PM
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My other question again:



Originally posted by TheBandit795

And why is there a UFO pic taken in the 19th century by astronomer Jose Bonilla??

www.worldofthestrange.com...




posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 02:21 PM
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Exact;y, the words in bold prove most of what you are saying as a modern day prejudice to what an artist 500 years ago might have interpreted as a glider that they had designed or something completly different.


Ok, so the artist envisioned this glider like (but saucer-shaped) craft and then just stuck it in his otherwise serious church-commissioned painting. Sure, that's FAR more logical...my bad...
I suppose the same could be said about Alexander's historian's account of flying shields at Tyre???


There has never been any proof, beyond the lens, of an out of earth entity craft being slavaged. People talk frequently about Roswell being the first time the US gov confiscated a craft, but how? How did the government know where the craft was at, and why would an interstellar species capable of light years of travel crash in the NM desert?


I suppose a press release from the US Army, Newspaper headline, etc. isn't enough for you? Perhaps dozens of eyewitnesses, many high-ranking military, including those of one of the most secure bases (i.e. the only atomic bomber wing at the time) would help? How about some government documents? (www.majesticdocuments.com...) Perhaps some deathbed confessions would help? And that's just the Roswell case alone...
The government was led to the crash site by the rancher who found the debris. How does a stealth fighter crash? Just because something is advanced, doesn't mean it isn't capable of mishap. Indeed, the more complex something is, the more apt it is to malfunction....



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by Frosty
There has never been any proof, beyond the lens, of an out of earth entity craft being slavaged. People talk frequently about Roswell being the first time the US gov confiscated a craft, but how? How did the government know where the craft was at, and why would an interstellar species capable of light years of travel crash in the NM desert?


Well why would high ranking officials give a press release regarding a crashed saucer? These high ranking army officers arent army pets. I would imagine they have some college education outside of the army to get them at the position they are. How could a leader of an army base be so illogical and so rash in jumping to the conclusion that a flying saucer crashed?

Why would it crash? There are many theories behind that. Some UFO researchers make the claim that our simple communication radio waves or microwaves caused some sort of interference in their equipment, thus causing them to crash. The problem was said to be fixed later on. Others hypothesize about the heavy storm that occured that night causing the crash. Those are just theories, but nonetheless, those are case scenarios.

You may want to check this link out



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 09:34 PM
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Bandit - So, you want us to believe that 19th century technology was capable of capturing a ufo? What, was it standing still for the required 3 seconds to take the photo, even if it was moving slightly it would not have shown up as nothing more than a blur. To me it looks like a small insect on his lens.

Gazrok - There are also eyewitness acounts of bigfoot and loch ness monster, but that is not proof, merely speculation, and we know of the lies by these eyewitness acounts of the two, so why does this make it any different? Farmer led the gov to the debris, maybe he was paid to fabricate such a story, I have never heard of the farmer story, I'll read up and get back to you.

Kyate - You mentioned the same thing as Gazrok but that microwaves brought down the craft. Why didn't the craft crash well before it entered the earth's atmosphere when it began to pickup frequencies from radios and televisions. I am still very skeptical that a species capable of interstellar travel would crash due to the 1950's home microwave or telephone poles or anything made fromt he 1950's.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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I would like to see the person who is capable of taking such a clear photo of an insect on the lense of a telescope. Especialy in the 19th century.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:02 PM
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Settledown guys were not kids. agree to disagree eh. shake virtual hands and let it slide. Theres no convincing frosty because he dosent beleive, likewise frosty ,theres no convincing certain others because they do.

I posted a question in either this or another ET thread asking if anyone would kindly point the way to link/s of photographs alledged to be ET craftshowing occupants (through portholes or whatever) I'd really appreciate any info on this particular facet of the phenomena, because whilei beleive there are craft/objects of ET origin in our skys, I sit on the fence as to weather they actually have physical living occupants or not, or are intelligently controlled by other means.
If you can help me with this most interesting question, I might be able to make an informed decision either way. This fence is hurting my Arse!


THanyou in advance.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 10:31 PM
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Instar

I think it's fair that you are sceptical and open minded. Have you look at Disclosure Project? Order the 4 hour witness VHS video from their website, sit back and watch. Those who cannot comprehend that it could all be true will dismiss all those witnesses so they can sleep, but would we not be fooling ourselves? Only 1 of those witnesses would have to speak the truth for it all to be real. Nobody in this forum would argue if 100 people (from military, intelligence, science, corporate) went public and said "I've seen bigfoot". These are credible witnesses, it doesn't mean they CAN'T be lying but it means they need to be taken seriously...all 100 of them.

The Disclosure Project are now counting more than 500 witnesses. As you'll se on the tape some of the witnesses talk of the same event, which means they are collaborating a story and thereby adding to the credibility.

Interesting stuff! Worth the money and you supporting Disclosure which would once and for all give an answer to the big question being asked in this forum: ARE THEY HERE?


Sincerly

Cade



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 11:09 PM
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Thanks Cade, ill certainly look into it, I know there are unexplained things flying in our skys, while i cannot say with surety that I have personally seen these things, I have seen something i thought a burning airplane spiralling to the ground only to dissappear, no sound or explosion, no news story. so I dont know what i saw. Footage ive seen of unknown craft, pacing airline jets, nasa footage among so many other videos that
show similar mysteries. Im convinced they are real, no doubt at all of that in my mind. you can only claim so many pics vids are faked before you realise your fooling yourself.
Some folk make a sport of shouting down anything as fake, without real consideration. I beleive even these folk have their doubts, weather they admit so or not.
I remain open minded about what they actually are however. I beleive also without any doubt that there is life elsewhere in space. Nor do I automatically discredit any claimed abduction/ interaction either, but I Question any claimed experience of this nature, because without questioning, you cant have insight/understanding . Given the developement of mankind and our own amazing technology and the sheer vastness of possible life in the universe, its hard to rule out anything really, but with a little healthy skeptisizm we can weed out the fruitcakes and outright liers and shed a little more light on the genuine inexplicable experiences that folk report.
I enjoy forums like this immensly for the range of perspective and individual ideas that are expressed about these matters. You cant have a balanced outlook with the only opinion/views your beleiving are your own. The downside of any open internet forum is that they do attract the bored, the attention seekers, the trolls etc. Sadly these folk turn away the genuinly intrested from their search for answers.
Please keep posting, keep questioning and enquiring, and keep an open mind. The truth is out there!


XL5

posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 12:58 AM
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Cade, I have seen those before and they either don't have tech spec.s (no device , yet have the theory) OR they have the device but it doesn't work and the people who test it don't have the knowledge to get the TRUE results and flub it. Then there are others that use hundreds of magnets or magnets with odd shapes and poles, I've made the howard J motor and the MXLO motor and they don't work. Others just want money with no proof.

I want to make one to show every one I can, since its the only thing that will effect the gas prices. I keep a totally open mind to aliens because I know alot about lasers and electronics, and the chances of a ruby laser being discovered by accident is totally false. To make a laser from even a polished and coated ruby rod or slab thats just laying around and a flashlamp going off even a foot away from it is imposible! Laser rods need to be doped and need mirrors that can't be aligned by guessing (tried it).

The discovery of the laser would be like making a lightbulb with no electricity! So yeah, I'm open to the posibility that aliens have given us knowledge on some tech stuff.



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 07:05 AM
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Gazrok - There are also eyewitness acounts of bigfoot and loch ness monster, but that is not proof, merely speculation, and we know of the lies by these eyewitness acounts of the two, so why does this make it any different? Farmer led the gov to the debris, maybe he was paid to fabricate such a story, I have never heard of the farmer story, I'll read up and get back to you.


Then it's extremely obvious you haven't even looked into this.

This is off the top of my head, so forgive any mispellings... The rancher's name was Mac Brazel. He loaded up some of the debris on his pickup and saw the sheriff in Roswell. (the ranch is actually near, not in, Roswell). Then the Army base was contacted. Major Jesse Marcel, the senior intelligence officer of the base, then went to the crash site. The debris was loaded up, with most of it being flown to Wright Field (now Wright-Patterson AFB).

Yes, there are eyewitness accounts of Bigfoot, Lochness, etc. However, as I've mentioned (and as you seemingly continue to ignore), there is FAR more than just witness testimony here. First off, there is EXPERT witness testimony. These witnesses are senior military brass, used to identifying objects by silhouette alone in the sky. Likewise, they were trusted with the biggest secrets of the day (i.e. the atom bomb). There are medical examiners, police, and fire witnesses among the Roswell witnesses also. We ALSO have numerous government documents surrounding the Roswell case, that clearly point away from the official (and proven to be false) story of the Mogul balloon.

Since you're sure to say "proven? how?", I'll head that off now.

1. A balloon project such as Mogul would NOT still be classified after 50 years....end of story there.
2. There are no records of a Mogul balloon in the area on the night in question, though records of the other launches are all recorded.
3. The "dummies" said to be mistaken for aliens, in the Air Force report were a) not part of Mogul, and b) not until about 5 years later.
4. The idea that THE senior intelligence officer, of the world's most secure military air field, wouldn't be able to tell a balsa wood and tin foil debris field, from the wreckage of a true craft, is the most laughable tripe that one could ever even consider!


I would also recommend looking into the Ramey memo. If not familiar with this, here's the background. General Ramey was the head cheese of the Roswell base. He ordered (as testified by Marcel) Marcel to pose with debris of a balloon, as he was directed to initiate the cover story. In this now infamous photo, with balloon debris, he is holding a memo. At the time, there was no way to even fathom that eventually we'd have the tech to zoom in and READ this memo. However, on that memo, there are some very clear and telling words, such as "disc", "victims", etc.

There is a government coverup...I'll give you that. But it seems it certainly isn't what you believe it to be....



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 11:41 AM
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Hello Frosty:

I think you had been seeing to much T.V. You sir are
starting to sound like Agent Mulder on the X-Files!!
There had been sighting all over the world , and there
has been piictures of strange men and ships in the walls
of acient Egipt , Mejico , Peru and other. How you splain that?
If you are right and there is the governtment doing all this , it
wold be on mothern times ? and there be nothing in past history?
To me your theory does not hold water.



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 12:39 PM
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I think you had been seeing to much T.V. You sir are
starting to sound like Agent Mulder on the X-Files!!


You mean Scully...SHE was the skeptical one...Mulder ALWAYS leapt to the fantastic first...

Example:

They'd find a body, completely drained of blood.
Scully: "Obviously the victim was killed then brought here..."
Mulder: "I don't think so...see these punctures on the neck? That's a vampire bite!"



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 02:09 PM
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Quote of MacBrazel's daughter Bessie: "Some of the metal-foil pieces had a sort of tape stuck to them" - Not quite sure that interstellar travelers would use a "sort of tape" in their construction of a flying saucer.

It's also amazing that MacBrazel was able to fit all the wreckage in the back of his pick up truck. Also funny that the story didn't begin to gain fame as a UFO crash almost 30 years after the incident. The bodies story never facillitated itself to the theory of a UFO until the late 70's! The Mogul experiment itself was no ordinary weather balloon experiment. IT was designed to detect low frequency waves in the atmosphere caused by possible soviet nuclear test (so we were trying to see if the Soviets had the bomb or not, maybe that's why it is still classified?)

Here's a video you all should check out: www.amazon.com...



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 02:21 PM
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Perhaps you should look closer at Bessie's words...(who was 14 at the time)


Bessie Brazel (Schreiber):
...a sort of aluminum foil. Some of [these] pieces had a sort of tape stuck to them.....[but] even though the stuff looked like tape, it could not be peeled off or removed at all. Some of these pieces had something like numbers and lettering on them, but there were no words we were able to make out. The figures were written out like you would write numbers in columns.....but they didn't look like the numbers we use at all....a piece of something made out of the same metal-like foil that looked like a pipe sleeve.. ..about four inches across and equally long, with a flange on one end.


home.netcom.com...

And, in ALL cases of the account, Mac takes SOME of the wreckage in his truck, not all of it.

The bodies came into it from a few different witnesses and are connected to the second crash site (not the one Brazel found)...first implied by the coroner receiving a request for "child-sized" body bags...

There also is no reason that Mogul would still be classified for 50 years, given that mission profile, unless it was covering up something else.

The case stayed buried pretty much as a product of it's time. The witnesses were bought off (Mac got a new red pickup out of it), or otherwise silenced (many recalling accounts of severe threats by unnamed military personnel). Not to mention, this was just after WWII... Americans still trusted their government. If the Army said "hush up, or you'll be helping the commie bastards"...well, you hushed up.

You've still got:

1. Dozens of eyewitness testimonies
2. Expert witness testimonies from high ranking military officers, town coroner, etc.
3. A US Army press release announcing the find
4. The Ramey memo
5. Marcel's testimony that the balloon pics were staged
6. Records of Mogul not showing activity in the area
7. Mogul not worthy of 50 years of being classified
8. No dummies in Mogul (though in the AF official explaination, with the tests cited, occuring years after the incident)
9. Paper trails, showing cargo flights out of the base to Wright Field, with classified cargo (and far more cargo space than any balloons would take up)
10. The documented military cordoning off of the crash sites
11. The insanely quick rush to enact a new Security Act, that in effect, COMPLETELY reorganized the Department of Defense and the Armed Services (i.e. created the Air Force and CIA), all within less than a month of the event, and with NO prior planning for such a reorganization. It took longer for Bush to create the Department of Homeland Security!!! So, ask yourself, what threat did we face in July of 1947, that was somehow more important than the attack on 9/11, that it necessitated such a drastic shakeup?

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Gazrok]

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 02:59 PM
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Gaz you can help me out here, I haven't been back to the Roswell case in a while so my memory is getting fuzzy...and I'm feeling rather lazy.


I remember that a report (I think it was a book actually) was released, with the military admitting it wasn't a weather balloon but some kind of experimental balloon (I forget what exactly it did now) which they had to keep classified up until this report was released.

Am I remembering this right? I'd almost buy it but then I think if they cover that up, why not cover up the cover up e.t.c.

it could go on and on...too much dis-information. I'm not sure if I'll ever truely believe the UFO crash at Roswell anymore, I used to be a firm believer a long time ago but I'm getting very skeptical of the whole UFO phenomenom as year years wear on...



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 03:17 PM
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remember that a report (I think it was a book actually) was released, with the military admitting it wasn't a weather balloon but some kind of experimental balloon (I forget what exactly it did now) which they had to keep classified up until this report was released.


First the military came out and said it was a weather balloon.

Then, fairly recently (I believe around the 50 year anniversary), the US Air Force came out with Roswell: Case Closed, and announced it was the Mogul project we've been talking about. Unfortunately for them, though the other Mogul launches/retrievals are documented, one doesn't fit the bill for Roswell, nor does the rather unfathomable explanation of "dummies" (used in tests 5 years after Roswell) as the alien bodies described by witnesses. In essence, they basically admitted there were bodies to explain! Simply put, Mogul doesn't hold water...nor does it's 50 year classification....

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Gazrok]



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
nor does the rather unfathomable explanation of "dummies" (used in tests 5 years after Roswell) as the alien bodies described by witnesses. In essence, they basically admitted there were bodies to explain! Simply put, Mogul doesn't hold water...nor does it's 50 year classification....


That is a slip up...an intentional one maybe? That's a very silly thing to say considering they never actually had to bring up the subject of bodies at all, they've just created more problems for themselves really.

P.S. I'll admit I was lazy and didn't want to go through all 8 pages of this so just skipped to the last one, sorry if all this has already been covered.

[edit on 10-12-2004 by John Nada]



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by instar
Thanks Cade, ill certainly look into it, I know there are unexplained things flying in our skys, while i cannot say with surety that I have personally seen these things, I have seen something i thought a burning airplane spiralling to the ground only to dissappear, no sound or explosion, no news story. so I dont know what i saw. Footage ive seen of unknown craft, pacing airline jets, nasa footage among so many other videos that
show similar mysteries. Im convinced they are real, no doubt at all of that in my mind. you can only claim so many pics vids are faked before you realise your fooling yourself.
Some folk make a sport of shouting down anything as fake, without real consideration. I beleive even these folk have their doubts, weather they admit so or not.
I remain open minded about what they actually are however. I beleive also without any doubt that there is life elsewhere in space. Nor do I automatically discredit any claimed abduction/ interaction either, but I Question any claimed experience of this nature, because without questioning, you cant have insight/understanding . Given the developement of mankind and our own amazing technology and the sheer vastness of possible life in the universe, its hard to rule out anything really, but with a little healthy skeptisizm we can weed out the fruitcakes and outright liers and shed a little more light on the genuine inexplicable experiences that folk report.
I enjoy forums like this immensly for the range of perspective and individual ideas that are expressed about these matters. You cant have a balanced outlook with the only opinion/views your beleiving are your own. The downside of any open internet forum is that they do attract the bored, the attention seekers, the trolls etc. Sadly these folk turn away the genuinly intrested from their search for answers.
Please keep posting, keep questioning and enquiring, and keep an open mind. The truth is out there!


Great post! You express a true inquisitive mindset and a sincer hunger for enlightenment. I gave you the Way above vote just for this post. I hope it inspires many people.


Sincerly

Cade



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by XL5
Cade, I have seen those before and they either don't have tech spec.s (no device , yet have the theory) OR they have the device but it doesn't work and the people who test it don't have the knowledge to get the TRUE results and flub it. Then there are others that use hundreds of magnets or magnets with odd shapes and poles, I've made the howard J motor and the MXLO motor and they don't work. Others just want money with no proof.

I want to make one to show every one I can, since its the only thing that will effect the gas prices. I keep a totally open mind to aliens because I know alot about lasers and electronics, and the chances of a ruby laser being discovered by accident is totally false. To make a laser from even a polished and coated ruby rod or slab thats just laying around and a flashlamp going off even a foot away from it is imposible! Laser rods need to be doped and need mirrors that can't be aligned by guessing (tried it).

The discovery of the laser would be like making a lightbulb with no electricity! So yeah, I'm open to the posibility that aliens have given us knowledge on some tech stuff.


Well, I don't know what to think about aliens giving us technology. I guess this is really not important to me. Meeting them, seeing them, are.

So your really working on this stuff?? HOW EXCITING ! ! ! I wish I knew more about this stuff. The ULTIMATE thing to do here would be to invent it, and then post it freely on the internet! If you try to copyright it, they will make sure it never get's out, they have in the past. ("They" are the evil ones
)



Cade


XL5

posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 09:11 PM
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I wouldn't ever post it on the net, I'd demo it to people and hand out instructions. The internet is too easy to control and it just be one more free energy site on the net and no one would give it any thought.

I think its the only way to change things, since the terrorists already have powerful wepons and free energy is more of a tool anyway. If people saw free energy , they may open up to the posibility of aliens and or the govt/mill may disclose at least some of it.

So when are you going to see them?




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