It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Gnosticism In The Broader Context Of Mysticism

page: 1
21
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:
+2 more 
posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 11:04 PM
link   
My spiritual approach for a while now has been one of basically reading up on anything and everything, taking what I like regardless of the system underlying the source of the information. An idea I have had is that there is a common truth or reality which all spiritual systems point towards. And this truth, this way of reading and applying scripture, is often given the generic term 'mysticism.' I have of course heard of gnosticism, and have had interest in it, but I've never really known much specific information about it. And I wasn't sure if the people who talked about it even really knew what they were talking about, or were just using the label 'gnostic.'

I then came across and looked into the Nag Hammadi library, which is a collection of ancient gnostic texts which was discovered last century. They are basically available to be read at gnosis.org. So I've been reading some of it, and also just looking a bit more into gnosticism in general. Now, the ideas as I have been coming across them, do seem to kind of be opposite of the general approach of mysticism as I have understood it, and what I have come to understand as being the 'right' spiritual approach. As I have come to understand it, this very life and every thing and every moment is sacred, ultimately beyond any label, but basically sacred, certainly nothing to be avoided. Although I am still early in studying gnosticism, so I am still open to it not exactly saying what it seems to say, but it seems to be in some ways opposite of these principles.

They seem to say that basically this physical body is like a prison which traps our soul. And due to our ignorance, we stay trapped in it. The physical reality was created by a somewhat nefarious being, not the ultimate God, with the aim of keeping us trapped in negative tendencies and ignorance. The ultimate goal, then, is release from this body, and a return to the reality of Spirit. When we die, there are two possibilities. If we have attained to some level of gnosis, knowing, during our life, we return to the spiritual realms. If we have not, we return to the 'prison' of physical reality again and again.

Now this ideology just seems somewhat life-denying. Which I have come to understand that true spirituality is life-affirming. Now, really many of the ideas do fit right into the general mystical tradition, and I can see the potential value in. But what really gets me, is that it does seem to say that this body, and this physical reality, is basically bad, and we want to escape it. I have come to understand that that sort of attitude is basically false spirituality. Physical reality is the outer boundary of God. But gnosticism does seem to in some way say this is the case from an ultimate perspective, but at the same time it does definitely seem to say what I have described, and that makes a part of me wonder whether it's even really worth the time of seriously looking into. But I do want to look into it some more. I would like to think that those teachings have a context and an underlying understanding which makes it not so life-denying. Or perhaps it could be seen as simply a device, to help people come to see the reality of spirit, while ultimately this 'good-bad' thing is a product of ignorance and illusion. I'm not sure. Thoughts? Anyone educated on gnosticism?
edit on 21-9-2014 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 11:30 PM
link   
I see it as just one more false religion.

This one just like all the others, comes with a hidden agenda.


According to Bible Scholars Barbara Thiering and Hans Jonas, Simon Magus was the founder of the Gnostic church and was the direct competitor with Christianity for the hearts and minds of the Greco Roman world.

Simon is the Beast, the original Antichrist, and the true identity of the number 666. He was so powerful in fact, that he is known by many different names in the Bible. Once all his "names" are learned, a very different picture of the Gospel emerges, one in which Jesus and Simon were creating two very different religions, for the reformation of Judaism, and the conversion of the Greco Roman/Pagan world to the Judaic god.

According to Clement, the early church father, Magus could, levitate items on command, speak with spirits, summon demons and place them into statues making the statues walk and talk, fly, and even raise the dead. These were all deceptions designed to indoctrinate his followers into believing he was a god. His religion, the Gnostic religion, was the sect that preceded Christianity in the Diaspora.

Simon Magus -- The lluminati's Jesus?

So, the New Age necessitates a New Age Religion, one that denies the universal claims of the Christian Faith, while making universal claims of its own. But little in New Age Religion is actually new. Much of it can be traced to Gnostic groups that formed in the early days of Christianity, and to even earlier Pagan or Eastern religions.

To the New Age Movement, all religions are the expression of the same inner reality. Therefore, the death of Jesus on the cross must be denied or re-interpreted. That is why we see phony writings such as the neo-Gnostic gospels fraudulently elevated to seeming authenticity by New Age writers such as Elaine Pagels and Dan Brown.

New Age Religion

originally posted by: stupid girl
Most of the Apostlic letters that make up the last half of the New Testament were written with the intent to refute the increasing heresies of Gnosticism. The Nicene Creed was also written as a statement of faith based on the true Gospel Message as given by Jesus to the Apostles which was recorded for mankind in the 4 synoptic accounts that begin the New Testament. Many new believers were led astray by the Gnostic perversions of Jesus' message. That is why Jesus said to seek first the Kingdom. Men have the inherent desire to seek wisdom & knowledge first, which is the modus operandi of Gnosticism in & of itself.

So in essence, Gnostic beliefs are based on the opposite of what Jesus instructed those who follow Him to do. Gnostic beliefs go against the Truths revealed to us by Christ Himself through His Apostles. Thus His Apostles referred to Gnostic teachings as 'anti Christ'. Read the First Epistle of John (1 John, not the Gospel of John). The entire purpose of that Letter is centered on the subtle lies of Gnostic teachings. When he refers to 'anti Christs' in his letter, he is referring to Gnostic beliefs.

The New Age movement & those promulgated by the UFO contactee phenomenon are largely based on Gnosticism. All types of mysticism are respectively based on various mixtures of Kabbalah, Gnosticism & Eastern Philosophies. Which in turn, are all basically based on each other. We are not gods. And we are only one in Christ- not in Gaia, or Christ consciousness, or universal consciousness, or karma kundalini or the galactic federation of light, or Chaka Khan Shamalama Ding Dong. We are all unique and individual and we are each accountable for the choices we make during our lifetime here on earth.

Satanic practices throughout the world can be traced in an unbroken line directly back to Gnosticism...

Curse of Canaan



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 11:34 PM
link   
When you think about it, their view is very similar to a movie "The Matrix". It seems that they were more aware of this reality than newagers (not to mention any religion). Yes, we live in the prison and ultimate goal is to break free... But first we must realize that we are entrapped in order to search for the way out.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 11:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: alomaha
When you think about it, their view is very similar to a movie "The Matrix". It seems that they were more aware of this reality than newagers (not to mention any religion). Yes, we live in the prison and ultimate goal is to break free... But first we must realize that we are entrapped in order to search for the way out.


I loved the movie the Matrix. Funnily enough, when I watched it and felt it was very deep philosophically/spiritually, I also felt that the whole idea of the Matrix was a sort of illusion, and that itself was the ultimate Matrix. So I suppose I have had this aversion to life-denying ideas for a while. lol. I do see what you're saying. I mean, I try to get into the perspective of things I read, sort of 'as if' I believe it. So I've been confronting the question. Could it be that physical reality is a basically negative illusion that we're supposed to transcend? Maybe, I could see how that could potentially lend itself to spirituality. But at the same time, everything I've learned seems to suggest that we should take a life-positive approach.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 11:42 PM
link   
You have the same in Buddhism and Hinduism. Want causes suffering when it does not live up to expectation.

Life should be a wonderful thing but it is unfortunately not since humanity is not ready on collective level to sacrifice greed for doing the right thing and follow the golden rule. And freedom is used as an excuse to enslave others and in fact destroy their freedom.

But some get support from unknown sources to cope with this place feeling love on a level that seem to have been forgotten on this level. Playing around with the spiritual gift and calming people taking some comfort that you can at least do that.

When you look a the big picture and think in terms of thousands of years will you really care in 500 years. Maybe one day humanity will live up to the potential it has.



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 11:48 PM
link   

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
You have the same in Buddhism and Hinduism. Want causes suffering when it does not live up to expectation.

Life should be a wonderful thing but it is unfortunately not since humanity is not ready on collective level to sacrifice greed for doing the right thing and follow the golden rule. And freedom is used as an excuse to enslave others and in fact destroy their freedom.

But some get support from unknown sources to cope with this place feeling love on a level that seem to have been forgotten on this level. Playing around with the spiritual gift and calming people taking some comfort that you can at least do that.

When you look a the big picture and think in terms of thousands of years will you really care in 500 years. Maybe one day humanity will live up to the potential it has.


See, with Buddhism and Hinduism the idea is that it is our attachment and pre-conceived notions which causes the suffering. So, it's not inherently life-denying, because when the mind is cleared and attachment is dropped, then life-positive experience opens up. But the gnostic idea seems to be that this physical body is literally a prison, the whole physical reality was designed for negativity and ignorance. I'm just thus far having difficulty getting around the basically explicit declaration that physical reality was designed by basically negative beings for negative purposes. But although I can see that it is clearly subtle, because it talks about these beings designing in on the pattern of the ultimate God, and using divine light/power to do it, although he is ignorant of the source of his power and that is in part what causes the negativity. So I do think it is probably more complex than just pure negativity, subtler meanings, that can open up.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 12:02 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

It all depends on how humanity should evolve. Lets assume that Reincarnation is a fact. There is then need to put souls that are on their learning level. Some places are not supposed to be perfect since some souls have not learned to be good tenants and trash the place any way if you put them in places that are well maintained. The problem with earth is that there is different kind of tenants sent to the same place. Some want to fix it while others are hell bent to destroy anything the fixers do.


edit on 22-9-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 01:13 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

Jesus preached Gnosticism. He was a gnostic.

I would say 99.9% of Christians have never heard the term. Most have never even heard of the apocrypha.

Evil shouldn't exist. It literally makes no sense. Pandoras Box ie the human dualistic condition ie the ego is & will be the downfall of our species:
web.photodex.com...
edit on 22-9-2014 by Eunuchorn because: Linky



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 01:29 AM
link   
I don't know if it's correct to say the Nag Hammadi Library is exclusively 'Gnostic', as the scrolls found at Nag Hammadi are from various traditions, and includes even 'The Republic' by Plato. It (supposedly) contains the earliest known writings of the 'Christian' tradition.

---

First, thanks for the summary.

The views you stated are also in accord with the Buddhist tradition, and sound very similar. I am not sure about the reason behind the Gnostic views, but the reason behind the Buddhist views are: (not that I necessarily agree) that while there is happiness and joy in the experience of life, there is also much (and perpetual) suffering. It is necessarily so due to the conditions of life in regard to - feeling, attachment, change, and death/impermanence.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 01:41 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney



But what really gets me, is that it does seem to say that this body, and this physical reality, is basically bad, and we want to escape it.


Not all gnostic texts tell the physical is bad. To the contrary the Gospel of Thomas teaches that one has to merge the female (physical) with the male (spiritual) to reach enlightenment (among other things) so female aspect should be honored not despised. Same gospel also quotes "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

Gnostic texts have different writers, some inspired, others not. You need seek guidance from your inner guide to help choose your correct path.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 01:53 AM
link   
True gnosis, is just seeing the inner meaning without actually buying into one thing. There were many different flavors and groups in the ancient world. Some were quite Buddhist or Taoist. And Buddha pulled away from complete forgoing of the flesh and then sought Balance.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:20 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

gnostic can be confusing... i agree.

imho,
The idea that this 'physical' body is the only thing we all have (as the ultimate proof of our existence) IS 'Prison', and that idea itself is attachment...
in other word, the idea that the body is 'physical' is prison.

in one of sutta (buddhism), it is said that emptiness is form, form is emptiness.
so this body... actually... not as 'physical' as 'individual' minds wants us to believe.

the teachings are not so different... but thanks to the our 'individual' minds... they become complicated and opposing each other... forming another prison called religions.

peace.
edit on 22-9-2014 by dodol because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:25 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

Hello and May Peace be upon you.

I am thrilled and enthused with the discussion that the OP presents. I am familiar with various systems, and have come to the same conclusions.

 



"a common truth or reality which all spiritual systems point towards."


This is an important realization. It is known by different names such as Anekantavada, Perspectivism, Relativism, or what I prefer to call Relative-Subjectivity. The ancient Indian proverb, "Blind Men And An Elephant," beautifully illustrates this concept. I also enjoyed how it was articulated in the film, Cloud Atlas; "Truth is singular. Its 'versions' are mistruths." —Sonmi-451

Basically, we all experience and perceive the same reality differently,... in a relative and subjective manner.

I say that this is an important realization because it helps us in understanding and accepting the differences of others.


 



"As I have come to understand it, this very life and every thing and every moment is sacred, ultimately beyond any label, but basically sacred, certainly nothing to be avoided.


Absolutely!!!!

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58). The truth is, this phrase belongs to each and every one of us. We always were, always are, and always will be. We are part of a fully interconnected and unified "One." We are always "One," but we are only temporarily 'here' and 'now' as relative-subjective humans. We are eternally whole and one, but each moment of physical life is a fleeting moment to treasure, savor, and enjoy.


 



"They seem to say that basically this physical body is like a prison which traps our soul. And due to our ignorance, we stay trapped in it. The physical reality was created by a somewhat nefarious being, not the ultimate God, with the aim of keeping us trapped in negative tendencies and ignorance."


There are many layers and veils of Gnosticism, but you have articulated a proper and correct exoteric and outer understanding of the teachings. The gist of Gnosticism does indeed propagate life as a physical imprisonment to a divine spark.

As you, I must also differ and part from such propagations. Life is no punishment, no hell, and is no physical prison for a divine spark. The truth is, the Divine is within everything, outside of everything, everything is composed of the divine, and all emanates from the divine. All is One and All is One. Such a beautiful unfoldment!

Life is simply an outstretching and emanation from a singular and unified source,... God/All/One/Higher Self/Consciousness/Spirit manifests into all animate and inanimate life, in order to experience its self in a relative and subjective fashion, according to differing perceptions, perspectives, times, space, and place. "God" knows all by experiencing all. "God" experiences all by being everywhere. "God" is everywhere by being everything.


 



"it does seem to say that this body, and this physical reality, is basically bad, and we want to escape it. "


Gnosticism, some Mystery Schools, and some Hellenistic systems do teach this. Once again, I respectfully disagree.

That which is within, is like that which is outside. The outer is a reflection of the inner. The inner and outer are one.

There is no escape from physicality because it is a manifestation of the One and an emanation from the All. You can not escape yourself. There is only understanding, experiencing, and having a gnosis of reality, which enables us to discover true Love, Peace, and Happiness,... which allows us to choose positivity and be active co-creators towards a beneficial world for all. What we do for others, we actually do for ourselves,... because once again; All is One.


 



"makes a part of me wonder whether it's even really worth the time of seriously looking into."


The Gnostic texts definitely have beautiful words of outer wisdom and insight. Although I deeply disagree with the doctrine of an imprisoned spirit, there are many beneficial esoteric and inner meanings. Gnosticism is all about metaphorical and allegorical representations of duality, oneness, figurative archetypes, and psychological archetypes. Its understanding of the Absolute Monad is right on,... but its understanding of the purpose of human life is flawed. Human life is meant to experience that which is.


 


Back to the concepts of Anekantavada, Perspectivism, Relativism, and Relative-Subjectivity,... all systems of belief that are sincere, are trying to explain and grasp the same 'Thing.'

It sounds like you have a great foundation of understanding, insight, wisdom, and intuition. You are definitely on the right path. May Peace be upon you.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:33 AM
link   

originally posted by: nOraKat
I don't know if it's correct to say the Nag Hammadi Library is exclusively 'Gnostic', as the scrolls found at Nag Hammadi are from various traditions, and includes even 'The Republic' by Plato. It (supposedly) contains the earliest known writings of the 'Christian' tradition.


You are correct that it is not exclusively gnostic per se. Just sloppy wording. However, in terms of the earliest known Christian writings, I believe you are confusing these writings with the dead sea scrolls. They were discovered at nearly the same time. I think I had them kind of mixed up and jumbled in my mind, and the other day I looked into it and some things cleared up, and that was what led to my wanting to read up on the gnostic writings found at Nag Hammadi.

---

The views you stated are also in accord with the Buddhist tradition, and sound very similar. I am not sure about the reason behind the Gnostic views, but the reason behind the Buddhist views are: (not that I necessarily agree) that while there is happiness and joy in the experience of life, there is also much (and perpetual) suffering. It is necessarily so due to the conditions of life in regard to - feeling, attachment, change, and death/impermanence.


I agree that it is in many ways similar. However, as I referenced above, in the Buddhist tradition it is generally understood that suffering is the result of our ignorance. Only because we are ignorant as to the nature of reality do we suffer, due to the attachment, craving, and aversion that arises in response to our ignorance. When we drop wrong views, reality as it is, free from suffering, is there, and it can be blissful. Bliss being more complex than just extremely positive, because bliss is the state which arises in response to the mind being freed from dualistic perceptions and conceptions. What I'm trying to say is, the Buddhist conception isn't that reality itself is negative, but rather negativity inevitably flows from our own ignorance and attachment. I'm not sure to what degree Gnosticism can be defined versus it having many different forms, but what I have read in summaries of Gnosticism and some primary texts I have read, seems to say that physical reality itself was literally designed by negativity, it's not a 'good' creation.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:43 AM
link   

originally posted by: dodol
a reply to: TheJourney
in one of sutta (buddhism), it is said that emptiness is form, form is emptiness.
so this body... actually... not as 'physical' as 'individual' minds wants us to believe.


Yes, the heart sutra. Definitely one of the best spiritual scriptures that exists. It, along with the Tao Te Ching, I basically take to be the most supreme and perfect expositions on the real truth of things. Sort of, they stand on their own authority. Or, they state things in a basically perfect way, such that I don't have to do much interpreting, they say it perfectly on their own. There is also a writing called 'verses on the faith mind' by I believe the third zen patriarch, which I consider to be another example of a basically perfect writing on Truth.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:44 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

Your comparison between Gnosticism and Buddhism is right on! Although all mystical traditions seek communion with the same Source, each system has its differences. Buddhism and Gnosticism both seek to end emotional and mental suffering,... but they paint life and physicality with different brushes, as you have correctly articulated.

Whether our stomachs become satisfied with a glass of water or a glass of juice, the quenching of thirst remains the same. Just as enlightenment from different systems produces the same inner gnosis, regardless of the methodology.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:46 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

I suspect the point you made really brings Christ's teaching that heaven is within man a step closer for many to understand. Person ally I believe Christ was a gnostic although I am still not convinced that Christ was not actually Appolonius from Turkey I think. The holy fathers also did a hit list on all writings about him which means he is involved somewhere in the mystery - however, unless a historian, its the teachings that really concern people today.

One thing I am glad about is that blind acceptance of the local priests mumbo jumbo is not for everyone and people are searching - as indeed was I - for the beliefs right to them..



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 03:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: TheJourney
This is an important realization. It is known by different names such as Anekantavada, Perspectivism, Relativism, or what I prefer to call Relative-Subjectivity. The ancient Indian proverb, "Blind Men And An Elephant," beautifully illustrates this concept. I also enjoyed how it was articulated in the film, Cloud Atlas; "Truth is singular. Its 'versions' are mistruths." —Sonmi-451

Basically, we all experience and perceive the same reality differently,... in a relative and subjective manner.

I say that this is an important realization because it helps us in understanding and accepting the differences of others.


Yes, that's a good way of looking at things. I also like that proverb about the blind men and the elephant.


Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58). The truth is, this phrase belongs to each and every one of us. We always were, always are, and always will be. We are part of a fully interconnected and unified "One." We are always "One," but we are only temporarily 'here' and 'now' as relative-subjective humans. We are eternally whole and one, but each moment of physical life is a fleeting moment to treasure, savor, and enjoy.


Exactly. He's referring to the timeless reality, which exists every where-and-when, as opposed to the existence in time of individuals. I think this perspective really informs and illuminates many of his teachings. I actually think there is quite a lot of wisdom in the New Testament. The thing is though, these are generally lines or passages which are good but somewhat indirect ways of saying truths. But the overwhelming majority of people reading it don't see these things, and just give some vague explanation of what he meant but just basically brush over them as being 1 of a billion lines in the bible. But I think these lines and passages, properly understood, inform the whole meaning of it all.


 




As you, I must also differ and part from such propagations. Life is no punishment, no hell, and is no physical prison for a divine spark. The truth is, the Divine is within everything, outside of everything, everything is composed of the divine, and all emanates from the divine. All is One and All is One. Such a beautiful unfoldment!
Life is simply an outstretching and emanation from a singular and unified source,... God/All/One/Higher Self/Consciousness/Spirit manifests into all animate and inanimate life, in order to experience its self in a relative and subjective fashion, according to differing perceptions, perspectives, times, space, and place. "God" knows all by experiencing all. "God" experiences all by being everywhere. "God" is everywhere by being everything.


Exactly. Really well put.


 





There is no escape from physicality because it is a manifestation of the One and an emanation from the All. You can not escape yourself. There is only understanding, experiencing, and having a gnosis of reality, which enables us to discover true Love, Peace, and Happiness,... which allows us to choose positivity and be active co-creators towards a beneficial world for all. What we do for others, we actually do for ourselves,... because once again; All is One.


Yup. This brings to mind something, speaking of the relationship with Buddhism, that I think, although not identical in content, is relevant. In the Diamond Sutra, Buddha says something to his disciple like: "Just as you should not be attached to the apparent reality of things, how much more obvious is it that you should not be attached to the non-reality of things." Physical reality is basically the most apparent thing. Although you should not be attached to it, how much more so should you not be attached to the idea of avoiding basically the one thing that cannot be avoided.



The Gnostic texts definitely have beautiful words of outer wisdom and insight. Although I deeply disagree with the doctrine of an imprisoned spirit, there are many beneficial esoteric and inner meanings. Gnosticism is all about metaphorical and allegorical representations of duality, oneness, figurative archetypes, and psychological archetypes. Its understanding of the Absolute Monad is right on,... but its understanding of the purpose of human life is flawed. Human life is meant to experience that which is.


Some of what I read I actually loved, it was a wonderfully poetic way of describing some truths, really just what a myth is supposed to be. Things I have learned in my previous studies of esotericism definitely illumined some of the passages, giving it a greater depth of meaning than it would have otherwise had.



It sounds like you have a great foundation of understanding, insight, wisdom, and intuition. You are definitely on the right path. May Peace be upon you.


Thanks a lot! Appreciate the well thought out response.
edit on 22-9-2014 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 03:10 AM
link   

originally posted by: glend
Not all gnostic texts tell the physical is bad. To the contrary the Gospel of Thomas teaches that one has to merge the female (physical) with the male (spiritual) to reach enlightenment (among other things) so female aspect should be honored not despised. Same gospel also quotes "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."


I have read that some people dispute whether the Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic. Then again, this all ties into what I still don't fully understand, is Gnosticism a fairly specific system, or can it be a generic term for mystical Christianity. Yes though, I really like the Gospel of Thomas. Definitely says some deep truths pretty directly.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 03:22 AM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

There are many early 'Christian' writings in the Nag H. Library such as the Gospel of Thomas, and Mary.

---

(First, disclaimer that I do not assert any view.)

If this existence were viewed as blissful by the Buddha, then he would not have strove to transcend it. Supposedly, it was his last life (if you believe in that sort of thing). Agreed that understanding (in the Buddhist tradition) is what leads out of suffering, but I think upon that attainment, it is your last life.







 
21
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join