originally posted by: FlySolo
a reply to: Zehll
I haven't tallied up the yes vs no people here but I think the majority of americans on this thread believe they can do whatever they want and get
away with it.
Well, actually, we can, as long as it's not unlawful.
They think cops are nothing but security guards and don't have any authority to stop you,
You don't, as long as my activity is lawful. eta: You also don't if you're out of your jurisdiction, or if you are trying to issue an unlawful order.
I've had both of those tried on me by cops, btw. The unlawful order one looked us in the eye and said "I'm the law, and I'm giving you an order, so
it's a lawful order". He made the argument that that's how he was trained at the police academy. It's not true. "Lawful order" is very tightly scoped.
In that case, the city caved within hours of being notified that there was a 13th amendment civil rights violation on the way. You can't make me pick
up garbage. Trust me on that one.
ask you for your ID or ask you a question.
You don't, unless it's a stop and identify state. 24/50, you can. 26/50, you can't.
Or, as Supreme Court justice Byron White said, you can ask, but you can't require an answer.
They can drive through road blocks,
Nope, that gets really negative attention. However, may I add a suggestion? I DID drive through one once. I drove up, stopped, and the cops all walked
off. I was left there stopped with no one at the window. They were all back on the road shoulder yukking it up. So I drove through slowly after about
30 seconds. They pitched a fit - if you walk off, how the # am I to know what you want? The staties down the road running a similar block had it down
to a science. The locals, not so much.
If you run a grabastic road block, you get random results. Just sayin'.
flip off cops
John Swartz (citizen) vs Richard Insogna (cop)
Not only did the court dismiss Insogna's charges, they also removed his qualified immunity for the countersuit, Insogna arrested Swartz for flipping
him off. The court was not amused and slapped Insogna into the dirt.
The appeals court deemed his conclusion unreasonable. "Indeed, such a gesture alone cannot establish probable cause to believe a disorderly conduct
violation has occurred," court documents read.
Swartz's lawyer, Elmer Robert Keach III, praised the court's decision, calling it an "important victory for civil rights."
"It reaffirms that just because you insult a police officer doesn't give that police officer the right to detain you or arrest you and take away your
liberty," he said.
Or, as Professor Ira Robbins would say: "This Article argues that, although most convictions are ultimately overturned on appeal, the pursuit of
criminal sanctions for use of the middle finger infringes on First Amendment rights, violates fundamental principles of criminal justice, wastes
valuable judicial resources, and defies good sense. Indeed, the Supreme Court has consistently held that speech may not be prohibited simply because
some may find it offensive. Criminal law generally aims to protect persons, property, or the state from serious harm, but use of the middle finger
simply does not raise these concerns."
So, yep, you can flip off a cop. And as Insogna found out, a reaction on the cop's part might prove financially foolish. Nothing like a nice
bankruptcy to change your attitude.
, yell at cops,
While I wouldn't do this, how can a cop yell at me, but I can't yell at a cop? Both are assault. Wait...that's right, the police unions bought off the
prosecutor. Never mind.
Houston v Hill. The law is...yes. I can dispute you. You can't charge with obstruction for me disagreeing. I know the law sucks, but there you go. You
purport to enforce it, you have to live with it, too.
drive without a license or insurance,
That's just nuts. Of course you have to have a license and insurance. Heck, I even agree with road stops.
In all honesty, why SHOULD I respect you? I save that for people I know who deserve it. If by respect you mean fear, forget it. I've been yelled at by
the best. You don't rate. Civility, yes. I'll give you that, as I would anyone else, at least at first. I have had an officer go absolutely bat#
because I didn't call him sir. Tough.
or plead the 5th at a traffic stop. Am I missing anything?
In truth, while I don't know how it works in Vancouver, here, at a traffic stop in 26/50 states, I DON'T have to answer your questions. I most likely
would (the guy in the video is a jerk) but where I live, during a Terry stop, I don't have to tell you crap if I don't want to. And if we get into
court about it, if you say "He wouldn't answer my questions", you'll get a reprimand from the bench. My not answering you is never grounds for arrest.
You either enforce the law, or you're no good. The law says I don't have to answer you unless I'm formally arrested, and at that point all I'm forced
to give you is my pedigree info. If you don't like it, tough.
eta: Oh, yeah. If you start telling me how to talk when you're questioning me, you can expect to get bupkes from that point on. I have had cops flip
out from me saying # or # or even # during questioning. Not in anger, but just in conversation. We're both adults. I received a #load of training to
use the word # for every figure of speech. You guys do too. Don't try to correct me like some constipated granny. I have a real hard time not saying #
in casual speech.
Hell, I got an award for making it through Networks I without ever uttering the word #. I treasure that trophy. It's up there
with my other attaboys.
edit on 24-9-2014 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)