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Putting an 18 year old into 120k debt should be considered criminal

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posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 05:39 PM
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Did you ever stop to think that our inherent corporate business model is flawed? The the mandate is constantly growing profit, which at a certain point can only happen by skimming pay and benefits from the workers, or providing a shoddier product? And this is exactly what our world is looking like now. We live in a disposable society, with a declining standard of living, and following the track you are supporting (which is the one we are on) will lead to continuation of those things, deterioration of the middle class, and wage slavery in the future for all but the ownership class. It is indeed a class war, and only one side is fighting....and winning. Because they tricked the other side (poor and working class) to vote against their own self interests and to despise their brothers.




posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 05:51 PM
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you guys talk about government taking money away from us to give to the poor. The exact opposite is true. The government takes our money and gives it to the rich. Even when they give it to the poor it goes straight to the rich. JP Morgan makes billions each year for the use of food stamp cards. Just for providing the card service! Walmart and other groups rake in every single dollar doled out in welfare benefits, and big pharma makes a killing off of non negotiable medication prices for medicare and Medicaid. Money doesn't trickle down, it deluges up, and it was set up this way because all these corporations and businesses can bribe congress to get exactly what they want. A system that directs all money their way. This is the reality. There is no fair shake. Hard work does not a successful career make. All these are lies to convince you to keep struggling and to blame your neighbors for the fact that you have absolutely no participation in the halls of power, and that a large part of your life is dictated by chance. So, you may succeed, I may succeed, and your ego says "well if I did it than anyone can". Well, there are people who succeed in China too, and Saudi, Columbia, or any other massively corrupt place you can imagine. Perhaps you can judge a nations virtues by the amount and type of people who succeed, and its quite clear that in the US the majority of the succeeders (and I mean the truly powerful, not you pocket change millionaires) are the greediest sociopaths around. Our society extols not "responsibility", but power, ruthlessness, greed, and acquisition. This is the land you celebrate, and it is clearly expressed by your lack of empathy or compassion for those less well off than you. The idea that all college graduates working in Walmart or other minimum wage jobs now have a decree in "basket weaving", or some other such nonsense. That they made different or more mistakes than you. Your arrogance is a testament to the utter lack of humanity or spiritual growth or wisdom, which can be considered the defining aspect of our "culture".


edit on 24-9-2014 by pexx421 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

Sorry, pexx421, this is way off the topic, but what period of American history had a much higher standard of living than in the years 2000 - 2008?

Oh, by the way, how would you define "Standard of Living?"



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 06:31 PM
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a reply to: charles1952 Albeit, we are comfortable. We have air conditioning, and our cars are really cool....and we have cell phones and computers....awesome fun stuff! However, comparing average incomes and purchasing power, as well as what minimum wage was then compared to now, cross referenced with the value of the dollar and inflation, our parents and our parents parents had much more purchasing power than we do. In the fifties manufacturing was the largest employer in the nation, and a single parent (the father) could support a large family on one income, covering utilities (what utilities there were), mortgage, car. The minimum wage in 1955 was equivalent to an income of 50000 a year now, and the minimum wage in 1970 was equivalent to 18 an hour now. I've discussed this earlier in the thread. Our parents and grandparents had much more opportunity for advancement, without a college education. They also had a job system that provided for pensions in retirement. My generation has much less possibility of retirement, and for the kids growing up now, retirement will likely be a fond fantasy.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

Dear pexx421,

I have to confess that I went by some portions of the thread. I was very interested in the OP's position and tried to follow that for about ten pages.

Thanks for the information, I appreciate you repeating it. If I understood, purchasing power and retirement security are pretty good indicators of standard of living. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 06:55 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

Pec you are my hero.

I start threads just to read perspectives like yours so I can even understand my own better.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 07:25 PM
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originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Voicing solutions is great, but HOW do we make these things happen? We can talk about it here all day, but unless someone goes out and does the work, it's just wishful thinking.


Well, when it comes to putting forth ideas you can use the rule I use which is based on the what's for dinner game. The rules are simple, anyone can veto any suggestion for any reason but they must provide an alternative that hasn't already been mentioned. When everyone agrees you have your solution. It will never give you the best but it will give you something that everyone either finds acceptable or can provide no alternative for. As a bonus, when you apply it to politics you quickly burn through talking points and get into actual thought.

More specifically how to accomplish things... that's a tough question and it comes down to our political process. In the current political climate nothing can be done and that fact is only going to get worse as the two parties seek to be more and more obstructionist. What we need is third parties that can offer alternatives which goes back to the previous paragraph. Our two party system literally no longer functions.


originally posted by: NavyDoc
Number two. Have you even known government run agencies and institutions to be efficient and cost effective?


I have, the Post Office is quite cost effective and efficient. Their current financial crisis is only because we forced them to pay 20 years of retirement benefits upfront (something their competitors which pushed for the legislation haven't done and have no obligation to do), and the Post Office is so efficient that they're even surviving that problem which when all is said and done will put them in an amazing position in the future.


originally posted by: macman
So, just because they are told to go to college by some, somehow equates to them not being able to make a decision in adulthood??


What have you done to counteract the idea that people should goto college? Do you make it a point to hire non college grads? Do you show 16 year olds a career path that doesn't involve college? You always say personal responsibility but taking care of yourself only matters as it puts you in a position to also take care of others. Do you go out and actually show your community that there's an alternative to college or is it all me, me, me (oddly enough the thing you accuse us of saying).


originally posted by: charles1952
Sorry, pexx421, this is way off the topic, but what period of American history had a much higher standard of living than in the years 2000 - 2008?

Oh, by the way, how would you define "Standard of Living?"


It's defined in relation to other countries. As technologies advance things become more available to the masses but that's not how standard of living is measured. It's all about relative wage and your purchasing power compared to others in the world. If you want a higher standard of living than 2000 you could look at Dec 31 1999, if you want another then go back to Dec 30 1999. Our purchasing power has been declining very nearly by the day since 1967 (since that was the peak) and has been on a sharp decline since the early 80's.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:27 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan
And that is exactly the hypocrisy of the personal responsibility crowd.

It only apply a to what they want it to they don't have any responsibility as leaders to take charge and affect change on the community level they want us to do that for them.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:28 PM
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originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: jhn7537

How do you curb the out control costs of obtaining a degree?

And you seriously don't support free education?

Do you not see how free education could help the entire world?


Your visions,or should I say ideas, are incompatible with the "capitalist" system you're living in. The system is wired for profit above all. What you want is more " socialist" in nature. The mindset of a lot of your citizens is present here and it's part of the problem. Individualism above all,don't care about others, and never ever give nothing to nobody. To exacerbate the issue, the jobs slowly drifted to other places and nobody did nothing about it.

I have no problem paying higher taxes for healthcare and education. And I do pay an arm and a leg,trust me. I believe free education is beneficial, even. If the present system lacks at producing the quality expected. Better half idiots than total ignorants. But what do I know. I grew up in a former communist country and had free education. Then I came to my addoptive country which I love dearly because it tries to keep a balance between both systems. Maple leafs forever



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 08:49 PM
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originally posted by: Hushabye
a reply to: intrepid

So we should suffer because you suffered?

suffering + suffering begets...what again?


Suffering begets stronger people, people who know how to handle adversity and adapt when situations change.
When a child begins to learn to walk, they often fall down and hurt themselves. But we don't strap them into a stroller and never let them "suffer" again. We help them up, kiss their boo-boo and let them do it again.
What the millis want is to always ride in the stroller with their pacifiers (e-gadgets) firmly attached to the stroller.
Becoming an adult is painful. I don't know of anyone who ever grew up without suffering some sort of pain. Some of our pain is self-induced, some of it comes from the universe. We can learn not to inflict the self-induced pain if we learn from our mistakes. I've yet to figure out how to avoid the suffering inflicted by the universe and its flaky ways, but I've learned that if I roll with the punches, I'll get through it and perhaps I'll even learn something from the experience.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:49 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: NavyDoc the nih seems to be much better run and more cost effective than our American medical system. It has better care provided than the majority of Americans get, and costs a fraction of what we pay. Also I would imagine, though I can't back this up without looking into it, that education costs in Europe are lower than they are here.....and more people get an education. And finally, first hand experience here, whenever toll roads or utilities where I live have been privatized the cost skyrockets while service disappears. So yes, government can run things more efficiently and cheaper than private.



You need to go back in history and look at health care costs and education costs before the federal government got its nose into those fields.
Just recently I was going through a box of papers from my parents' attic and came across a lot of financial records from 1963. My father made just over $7k that year----the fourth year after he had started his construction business. Our family of four was living in high cotton after three years of getting the business up and going.
For our family of four he paid $36.00/yr for a Blue Cross and Blue Shield insurance policy.
He paid nothing for education costs for his two children. We attended a private grade school run by the local university. It was completely free---no tuition, no fees. Students weren't expected to become sales representatives for candy companies or magazine publications either. Parents were expected to provide the student with paper, pencils and crayons.

Fast forward to 2014 and take a look at the average family of four and calculate the costs of education and health care insurance today. What percentage of that family's income is now being spent on those two items alone?
Math isn't my strong suit so I'll leave it someone else to figure out the percentages but I know that $36.00 is a tiny percentage of $7000. Today, with the government's control of health care insurance, I know families that are paying up to 20% of their income for health insurance for a family.

So what has changed in these past 50 years? The creep of federal government into every area of life---LJB's Great Society was big boost for getting the feds into the local schools. The implementation of Medicare was the camel's nose under the health care industry's tent.
Both political parties crawled into bed with the corporate sharks and gave us the sad situation we see today.
There will be no solution to these issues until the voters wake up and abandon the party system. They have to throw off the phony left-right glasses presented by msm. We are humans, we have stereoscopic vision, not just left and right.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:53 PM
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a reply to: diggindirt

I think the real problem is not in government persay it's in corporate interest controlling the government through political lobby and special dinners with prostitutes and you know what.

But you may actually have a valid point. I don't know though maybe you can provide links for us to read more about it?
edit on 9/24/2014 by onequestion because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 09:58 PM
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a reply to: diggindirt You are absolutely wrong!! Back then until the 80s, all hospitals were either charity or school affiliated, And will run and affordable. It's not the inclusion of government that made them unsustainable, it's the for profit privatization!! And fyi, it's not the "run by government" that's the problem. It's that in the us, government is the executive arm of big business. So all the things you guys criticize "big government" for are actually the designs of those very businesses you purporte to be the best regulators of themselves. Doing exactly what you believe it's the greatest good, regulating and deregulating in their own best interest, at the expense of everyone else



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 10:07 PM
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a reply to: Bursuc

Why do you think people who believe in personal responsibility don't help other individuals? When did "Pay it forward" become selfish?



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 11:14 PM
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originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: diggindirt

I think the real problem is not in government persay it's in corporate interest controlling the government through political lobby and special dinners with prostitutes and you know what.

But you may actually have a valid point. I don't know though maybe you can provide links for us to read more about it?


We are certainly in agreement on the fascists, the corporate-owned mass of ooze in the halls of legislatures from sea to shining sea.
Links? Nah, my knowledge is taken from reading a whole mess of books over the years and living through those years. You could look at a lot of the books that came out about that time---Camelot---when a rising tide was lifting all boats. My Dad grabbed one of those boats and started his own business. In four years he had doubled his income and reduced the time away from his family.
You're absolutely correct on government alone not being the problem. We need government, honest government, not the morass we've allowed. Holding elected official accountable starts at the local level and it's hard, tedious work. It is time consuming work just to gather 20-50 people together who are like-minded and willing to put in the work required. It is a long process to find honest, hard-working people to serve in local and state government.
It's hard to root out local corruption. Exposing corruption in government at the local level ruffles a whole mess of feathers and starts people slinging mud. I've observed this firsthand.
But it can be done. And indeed, must be at some point.
The process in our county started almost twenty years ago with a bunch of like-minded people who were willing to put aside party politics and work for good government. In November we will elect an independent as the county judge-executive, (not a judge actually, an administrator) for the first time in living memory. We still need to work on state offices but I do see regional progress in the men and women of integrity won't be bought with party money.
That independent county administrator saved our county hospital from going corporate. (He had some help from our Attorney General at time, another honest public servant.) But it took a ton of time spent in research to uncover the scheme that was being developed to sell the local hospital. It took a lot of midnight oil being burned to expose the corruption in county contracting schemes, some legal, some not-so-much. I know about this because I spent a lot of time doing that research, along with several others. The targets of our investigations called us "a fringe element" and "conspiracy theorists" in the local newspaper.
It's a long slow process but seeing progress is rewarding. Having an administration that is not willing to hand every child born in their county a huge debt is a start.



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 11:30 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: diggindirt You are absolutely wrong!! Back then until the 80s, all hospitals were either charity or school affiliated, And will run and affordable. It's not the inclusion of government that made them unsustainable, it's the for profit privatization!! And fyi, it's not the "run by government" that's the problem. It's that in the us, government is the executive arm of big business. So all the things you guys criticize "big government" for are actually the designs of those very businesses you purporte to be the best regulators of themselves. Doing exactly what you believe it's the greatest good, regulating and deregulating in their own best interest, at the expense of everyone else



Our hospital is locally owned by county government. It is run by a local board appointed by city and county executives. It has been that way since the early '60s. The county bought it from the private owners/founders. Since the federal government put out its tentacles and began regulating hospitals, the costs of meeting federal standards has soared. Go sit in on a meeting of the board of directors for a small, locally-owned hospital and hear the reports of the costs of compliance to this regulation or that regulation. Listen to the chief financial officer tell how much Medicare owes in back payments.
There was a time not so long ago when a scheme to sell our locally owned hospital to corporate interests was hatched by a few folks who wanted to make a buck or two on the deal. That deal was stopped dead in its tracks when an honest, diligent fellow was elected county executive.
See, it's all local. If you keep your back yard clean and all your neighbors keep their back yards clean, the neighborhood doesn't get over-run with rats and all other sorts of varmints.
The first step in this journey is to turn off the TV and get into the neighborhood to see what folks are talking about. Go to your local council meetings. Listen to the people who are running things. Are they making sense? Then put whatever time and talent you have to work with other like-minded people.
Did I mention that this is hard work?



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