Putting an 18 year old into 120k debt should be considered criminal

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: Aazadan
So Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson couldn't criticize slavery and formulate opinions that would later lead to abolishing it?

Seeing as neither did much other than whine about, even while they had the influence to directly change it...yea, I wouldn't put much stock into their opinions on slavery.

It is nice to glorify their statements about their role in abolishing slavery, but let's put things into perspective. Both of these men had the chance to actually end slavery (US only)...neither did.

What does that tell you?

It tells me that the problem is bigger than one person. Slavery whether that's actual slavery as in back then or debt slavery as in now is an institution with deep pockets and influence at high levels of government. It takes a hell of a lot more than saying "lets end it" to actually end it.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
I mean how do we turn this boat around so that education isn't so expensive? How do we make this country stop paying so much for the military so we can afford to pay for our children's education? HOW does it happen?

Two solutions:
1. Let the government take over education, dictate all salaries and costs then pay those costs with tax money. The advantages are that it spreads risk and if run optimally is cheaper as there is no profit motive. The disadvantage is that there's little incentive to control costs and programs offered are driven by demands of the voters (who frankly don't have a clue) rather than by the market.

2. Get government financing out of student loans. Make the colleges themselves offer financing and compete not just on cost/quality but on loan terms. The advantages are that colleges have an incentive to make sure students learn and can get jobs that allow them to repay the loans and that costs are minimized. The disadvantages are that some people will be unable to afford college.

Personally, I would be fine with either system.

Number two. Have you even known government run agencies and institutions to be efficient and cost effective?

In a way, I agree with you. It should be criminal to put an 18 year old in that much debt. I mean, life on their own has probably just started, or hasn't even started yet. I'm 22 and in debt because of doctors bills. I didn't ask to have an autoimmune disease. But I'm in debt because of it. I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm not saying anyone should pay my bills. But I'll tell you, you need good credit for things, and having debt kills that.

As far as furthering your education goes... That's a choice. But I do blame society in a way, for not teaching young adults about the other options out there. When I was in high school we were taught about college and the military. We weren't taught about apprenticeships/internships, tech schools, or anything like that. My boyfriend wants to be a nurse, but doesn't want to pull out student loans. He was mindblown when we found out that some hospitals will pay for your schooling in return for you working for them after. Young adults aren't taught things like that. They also aren't taught that straight out of college they won't find a job in their field of choice, most likely. And they aren't taught that sometimes the field you want to go into might be a better minor than a major. With a major in Shakespearian Language, you're not going to get far. But hell, if you want to minor in that and have a major in medicine, go for it.

It's really hard to even want to further your education in this country. Right now, I find it hard to want to go to work, because I work full time, and people on welfare make more than me. How is that far? I find it hard to want to further my education because even if I had a degree in science or medical or something, there's someone doing less than me getting more than me.

It's also hard to want to further your education because of the cost. I remember reading that in the UK, they give you the money, and you pay it back. You only have to start paying it back when you make 35,000+ a year. And if you don't pay it off in 30 years, they wipe it away. And in Denmark, you just go. I'm sure that taxes are higher for that reason. But I'm also sure that somewhere in this country we could cut a tax and add a college tax to help young people out a little.

Maybe schools should start telling young adults to study abroad.

originally posted by: onequestion

I actually care about the community around me. Why you want to turn that into a bad thing perplexes me.

Caring about the community is one thing.
Not taking care of yourself, and looking for the community to take care of you is another.
Worry less about others, and more about the things you need to do.

originally posted by: onequestion
You would be nothing alone you need the rest of America to work in order for you to work in it.

Ahh, the "no man is an island" routine.

I don't need others. I find ways to be successful.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I've already said.

End the war on drugs and reallocate those funds to education. End the war in the Middle East and reallocate those funds to education.

Tax the new drug trade.

Regulate tuition costs and end endowments.

NOOOO. End the wars and return the stolen money to the source. The taxpayer.

originally posted by: macman

originally posted by: onequestion

I actually care about the community around me. Why you want to turn that into a bad thing perplexes me.

Caring about the community is one thing.
Not taking care of yourself, and looking for the community to take care of you is another.
Worry less about others, and more about the things you need to do.

originally posted by: onequestion
You would be nothing alone you need the rest of America to work in order for you to work in it.

Ahh, the "no man is an island" routine.

I don't need others. I find ways to be successful.

No one is suggesting that.

We're suggesting education reform do you have any ideas about education reform?

Yeah it's messed up

originally posted by: onequestion

No one is suggesting that.

We're suggesting education reform do you have any ideas about education reform?

Sure. Stop paying moronic prices for moronic degrees.
Stop taking loans out for said degrees.
Stop using said loans to fund your life.
Stop deferring said loans out to your 30s.
Stop expecting to have a great job right out of college, with no experience.

Start paying cash for what you want.
Start actually researching a career and plan for it.


The need to work multiple jobs to get through your early career life is nothing new. Your age range just thinks it is exempt from this.

DO you know why I garner an $80k+ salary in my career field now? Because I have been in it since 1995.

YOU are the reason why Colleges are expensive. YOU continue to go to them and pay them for their services.

Talk about an ass-backwards generation.

You protest and bemoan business, yet want your fair share. All the while handing over thousands of dollars to Colleges, that set their OWN rates and prices.

YOU are driving the College marketplace.

I am not, as I refuse to participate in it.

a reply to: macman

And this is exactly what wee discussing .

Yet you won't recognize the fact that kids and told from day one that they should follow their dreams and go to college.

Then when they do it's their fault.

Sorry if a 15 year makes a bad career choice all the whole being encouraged to do so

They don't know anything about the market they don't have the experience to know and our education system is failing in doing so.

all of this is ignoring a certain relevant point. We live in a predatory society. The system is set up to charge people as much as possible, while at the same time forcing wages down and exploiting the workers as much as possible. Yes, this is worse now than it has been since the labor movement because the labor movement and civil rights movements made massive inroads to equality and protections that have since been steadily eroding, and continues to get worse every generation. If this continues in this way our children will continue to have decreasing standards of living, while the wealthy elite will continue to enjoy More money, More power, and more ability to manipulate the system to their benefit. To act like people can work hard in order to ensure equal success and that this reality exists inside a vacuum without external pressures from business and banks working to steal the growth in profit is naïve and unrealistic.

double post

originally posted by: onequestion

And this is exactly what wee discussing .

Yet you won't recognize the fact that kids and told from day one that they should follow their dreams and go to college.

So, just because they are told to go to college by some, somehow equates to them not being able to make a decision in adulthood??
And since when does it require to go to college to follow ones dream?

originally posted by: onequestion
Then when they do it's their fault.

Yes, the CHOICE to go to college was their own.

originally posted by: onequestion
Sorry if a 15 year makes a bad career choice all the whole being encouraged to do so

A bad choice is still theirs to burden, and then their choice to correct the bad choice.

originally posted by: onequestion
They don't know anything about the market they don't have the experience to know and our education system is failing in doing so.

Seriously???

I was in the telecom world by 16, by choice, and decided this was the career for me.

Sounds like it is a failure in parenting, not of the Govt in not taking care of someone.

a reply to: intrepid

So we should suffer because you suffered?

suffering + suffering begets...what again?

a reply to: NavyDoc the nih seems to be much better run and more cost effective than our American medical system. It has better care provided than the majority of Americans get, and costs a fraction of what we pay. Also I would imagine, though I can't back this up without looking into it, that education costs in Europe are lower than they are here.....and more people get an education. And finally, first hand experience here, whenever toll roads or utilities where I live have been privatized the cost skyrockets while service disappears. So yes, government can run things more efficiently and cheaper than private.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: NavyDoc the nih seems to be much better run and more cost effective than our American medical system. It has better care provided than the majority of Americans get, and costs a fraction of what we pay. Also I would imagine, though I can't back this up without looking into it, that education costs in Europe are lower than they are here.....and more people get an education. And finally, first hand experience here, whenever toll roads or utilities where I live have been privatized the cost skyrockets while service disappears. So yes, government can run things more efficiently and cheaper than private.

Without getting into the details of the failings of your system, I can say from personal experience that this is not the case in the US. Our government is the largest bureaucracy in the world. What works in a small homogenous population is not necessarily going to work in a large, heterogeneous population with the world's largest bureaucracy at the helm.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Um....I live in Louisiana. And you didn't make mention of my two very valid examples of government run systems (toll roads, utilities) that work much better than private, disproving the common and spurious claim that private business always works better than government. There is something private systems do better, and that is make profit. And they usually do it by charging ever higher rates with ever declining work\profit. At the consumers expense.

For those of you touting the Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Norway's education systems---just remember that those countries also have compulsory military service beginning at age 18 or 19. That "free" university education is available only to a select few who have completed their military service AND have very high test scores from their early schooling. At least that's the way it was explained to me when I taught students from those countries a few years ago. Most don't see a university until they are well into their 20s, when they have proved that they are responsible adults. The compulsory military service helps with that "responsibility" thing....it comes down to the government teaching personal responsibility via the military. Perhaps that's where the US got off rails??? ....just sayin'.
You might also want to look at their tax rates and consider that a great deal of their tax revenues come from the production of oil and gas---something the whining millis have expressed a desire to shut off completely.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: NavyDoc
Um....I live in Louisiana. And you didn't make mention of my two very valid examples of government run systems (toll roads, utilities) that work much better than private, disproving the common and spurious claim that private business always works better than government. There is something private systems do better, and that is make profit. And they usually do it by charging ever higher rates with ever declining work\profit. At the consumers expense.

Looking at the shape of our infrastructure, I would disagree that government run roads are better and cheaper. Just because you don't pay the cost for use directly, does not make them "cheaper."

The report estimates that states would need to spend $45 billion to bring roads in poor condition into a state of good repair while maintaining their existing road systems. However, based on data reported to the Federal Highway Administration from 2009 to 2011, states collectively spent $20 billion annually to build new and expand existing roads but only $16.5 billion repairing the rest of the road network. The report examined only roads and only the capital budgets — construction funding — of each state’s total transportation budget.

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Much of the waste involves a contracting process that involves minority business set asides, cost overruns, contracts given via nepotism. It is disingenuous to say that private roads are more expensive and less kept up.

NIH is a research facility that is very bureaucratic and very expensive.

Neither of your examples "prove" what you think they do.

a reply to: NavyDoc And you can talk about the failings of their system all you like but it pales compared to the failings of ours. They have a much higher STANDARD of healthcare much cheaper than ours, they are much more educated, and have higher social mobility. And your talking points are no more than that. Talking points. Created by business leaders to get Americans to vote against their best interest, and no real world examples of your theories exist anywhere. Where socialized healthcare or education has been instituted around the world it had always been welcomed and appreciated by the people And they benefit greatly from it, while privatization has often been forced against the people's will,And often to the detriment of those needing its service,all so some corporations can reap massive profit art public expense.

originally posted by: pexx421
Um....I live in Louisiana. And you didn't make mention of my two very valid examples of government run systems (toll roads, utilities) that work much better than private...

I was under the impression that Louisiana Power and Light was a private company that built most of the infrastructure.