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Putting an 18 year old into 120k debt should be considered criminal

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posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:10 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

I worked part time (26-28 hours), much less than $18 an hour ($11 an hour), and I also had a 16 hour unpaid internship (so 44 hours per week total), and graduated cum laude with a degree in hand and 100% debt free.
edit on 20-9-2014 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:15 PM
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originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: eriktheawful

I served in the military so what?

And my rebuttal is perfectly sensible.

You want the community to work together for protection but not for education?

Do you pay car insurance, did you pave the roads?
those are all community projects which you support.


So you didn't take your oath seriously I see.

I home school, and we do our own protection (apparently you need to learn how to read as I stated that before).

Car insurance is the LAW. So as a responsible adult I obey said law.

My road is not paved (see previous post about where I live).

Again, SUPPORTING your community is not the same as being "responsible for the community". You really need to get your head on straight if you can not understand that.

People form communities to get things done. They do not form communities to coddle your rear end. They don't form communities to pay your way. They don't form communities so you don't have to work.

You have shown over and over (in multiple threads) that you believe everything should be handed to you. That you should not have to work for anything. That everyone else should be responsible for you.

You sir, are the grasshopper. While the rest of us are the hard working ants.

Don't come banging on my door when winter arrives.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:17 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
one more thing.... to those who grew up in the 60s-80s saying they worked minimum wage jobs to get though college, and others saying that's what real hard working people do. Minimum wage back then went way further than it did today. To say you can work full time at a entry level position and still go full time to school....its much harder than it used to be. And its only going to get worse for your children. Entry level jobs in 1970 paid the equivalent of 18 dollars an hour in todays society. If we still got the same purchasing power from entry level jobs, yes, it might be feasible. At todays rates....its just not.


Wow, that is a lie. In 1970 the minimum wage was $1.60. According to the BLS, that is the same purchasing power as $9.81 in 2014 BLS Inflation Calculator

Of course there wasn't free healthcare and the food stamp program was much smaller. Education was much cheaper then too, but still. You have almost doubled the 1970 equivalent value.

LOL, and you're praised for your made up 'facts' too.
edit on 20-9-2014 by TonyBravada because: ....



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:21 PM
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Occam, I was comparing our parents working minimum wage while in school to us while in school. Also....the liberal ideology of everyone getting an education, hm? Well, the right wing has implemented the "right to work" status in many states that has destroyed the system of apprenticeship and trade intern that we used to have, leaving college as the only route. It gave corporations the ability to both demolish union rights, fair labor rights, and wages all in one fell swoop. At any rate, you have already referred to your own intellect as "genius level", so I can only assume you are being extremely arrogant when stating your own accomplishments as a guide post for everyone else to follow. I, myself, consider myself blessed as well, physically, emotionally, and intellectually, and yet I also fancy myself somewhat compassionate and empathic, which allows me to realize that not all people have the gifts I do, and may not be able to succeed in the same ways. I will add, that though I do have gifts, I have gotten every single job I have ever interviewed for based off of charm, charisma, and good looks alone, nothing to do with my skill level. I don't say this to brag, but rather to point out that the system is obviously flawed when such shallow variables hand me an unearned advantage, and does not present equal opportunities, no matter how hard some may work or try.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:24 PM
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a reply to: TonyBravada Hahaha, that is according to the "official BLS" which is about 50% off. There are three measurements used to evaluate CPI. The first, which the annual report announces is at 2.2% this year I think. But it doesn't include things such as gas, milk, beef, which climb greatly in price. The highest (and more realistic one, I think) is at 8% That's almost four times what the official statistic is....and it has been that way (with the official greatly underreporting) for quite some time now.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:38 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: TonyBravada Hahaha, that is according to the "official BLS" which is about 50% off. There are three measurements used to evaluate CPI. The first, which the annual report announces is at 2.2% this year I think. But it doesn't include things such as gas, milk, beef, which climb greatly in price. The highest (and more realistic one, I think) is at 8% That's almost four times what the official statistic is....and it has been that way (with the official greatly underreporting) for quite some time now.




Now now, if we're going to throw out official stats, we should throw all of them out. But this isn't the right forum to argue about the effects of inflation or the definition of the word. I agree in that I disagree with official figures though. But I think the real problem is the serious lack of jobs and not specifically the cost of education. Nor do I believe that providing free college will solve anything. The bankers will find another way to fleece you and steal from you. The banks are why college is so expensive (through the Fed subsidies which ultimately benefit the banks). If every single student was not guaranteed $27,000 in loans schools would not charge as much as they do. What happened when home loans became too easy to get? Too many people bought homes, jacked up the prices, and wound up in a puddle of debt. The same is occurring in automobiles right now. And it's been happening to colleges for decades. People don't need college except for professionals. Anyone simply wanting to be educated can easily educate themselves. And one argument made by the OP was that college doesn't pay off for many, many people. How then is sending them to school on the state's dime that much better?

It IS possible to go to school cheaply if you are willing to work at it and make sacrifices. I use the word cheaply very loosely here. Scholarships are everywhere, state and federal grants are options for the poor. The other major problem is people making bad decisions. I'm sorry, but if you went to a $35,000 a year school for a liberal arts degree with no plan for law school or other graduate training, I absolutely do not feel bad about your $100,000 debt.

All of these statistics showing that college kids have a lot of debt and the economy really sucks does not in ANY WAY AT ALL prove that sending kids to school for free will improve the situation. Nor does it provide a way to pay for it without seriously sacrificing the quality of education. The problem is not simply the cost of school.

The problem is the current state of America in it's entirety.
edit on 20-9-2014 by TonyBravada because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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When a lender lends, they share in the risk. No body forces the lender to lend the money. This simple little observations should never be forgoton in financial transactions.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:46 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
Occam, I was comparing our parents working minimum wage while in school to us while in school. Also....the liberal ideology of everyone getting an education, hm? Well, the right wing has implemented the "right to work" status in many states that has destroyed the system of apprenticeship and trade intern that we used to have, leaving college as the only route.


How does right to work do that? Last I checked unions are a newer idea, and apprenticeship was created under right to work conditions.

As far as "tooting my horn" ... can you show me where anything I said showed arrogance? My IQ is 144, that's just a fact. If you look the only thing I used IQ in relation to was whether or not I was pressured to go to a "top" college. My accomplishments I all linked to taking education serious, and hard work, and believing I was not entitled to anything, I had to earn it. So I would appreciate you apologize for your ad-hominem attack unless you can show me where I was arrogant.
edit on 20-9-2014 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:48 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Apprenticeships was how this entire country and everything we've made has been built.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:50 PM
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Interesting coincidence I just noticed. The average debt upon graduation, for those graduating with a debt (which skews the numbers significantly, as 1/3 of students graduate without debt), is $26,600. The Federal student loan guaranteed amount, which every eligible student qualifies for, is $27,000 for 4 years. It may only be a coincidence, but I suspect if you go back and review those federal limits the average debt upon graduation will follow very closely. A qualifying student is almost anyone with passing grades BTW.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:54 PM
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a reply to: TonyBravada Wow, I actually largely agree with you. It is the banks and monied interests that destabilize everything.....in their favor. However, your argument supports mine, in that we do not work in an equal vacuum without outside interests tipping the scales into their bank accounts. However, I disagree that you can self educate....when our system requires jobs (nursing, ultrasound, etc) to have certifications that you can only get by graduating from an accredited education facility. But yes, the problem is bureaucracy and the for profit system.

I will also state that largely school is a farce as well. In the military, they taught us in 6 months to be more than nurses, to do all their tasks plus many that only doctors do as well, as a simple military medic. Much of our school is inflated and extended with meaningless, non career specific courses, in order to extract as much money from us as possible.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 10:57 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04 No, apprenticeship was the preferred standard of learning a trade since before the dark ages. In Louisiana when they instituted the "right to work" policy, it destroyed the unions and put an instant end to all the programs that used to be apprenticeship based, which were plumbing, welding, plant work, etc. They all became jobs needing degrees at that point, and for many, the pay went down then.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:01 PM
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I don't understand why anyone would put themselves 120k in debt for an education. Add in the time lost while in classes and your out nearly a half million. Education is a market and education will charge what the market can bare. Obviously people have no problem paying that much for an education since that is what they are doing.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:02 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: TonyBravada Wow, I actually largely agree with you. It is the banks and monied interests that destabilize everything.....in their favor. However, your argument supports mine, in that we do not work in an equal vacuum without outside interests tipping the scales into their bank accounts. However, I disagree that you can self educate....when our system requires jobs (nursing, ultrasound, etc) to have certifications that you can only get by graduating from an accredited education facility. But yes, the problem is bureaucracy and the for profit system.

I will also state that largely school is a farce as well. In the military, they taught us in 6 months to be more than nurses, to do all their tasks plus many that only doctors do as well, as a simple military medic. Much of our school is inflated and extended with meaningless, non career specific courses, in order to extract as much money from us as possible.




Well said.

The self-education thing was meant more for those who simply want to be educated, for whatever reason, to improve themselves or become an entrepreneur... not so much toward job specific training. Although the regulations and certifications are often onerous and unwarranted. The bureaucracy is what makes an excellent hairdresser have to attend an accredited beauty school to legally cut someone's hair in Virginia... disgusting.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:03 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04 as for "tooting your horn"..... come on. You point out your situation, and seem to imply that everyone can do the same. My IQ is in the same range, I don't think its considered "genius level" by the way, and its plain to me that life, learning, grasping concepts is not as easy for most other people. I never had to study in school, even when taking extremely difficult medical courses with 1/16th pass rates (that's being generous). This is not something I had to work very hard, as I'm sure you didn't, so its not like something we "earned". Other people DO have to put in much more work to get the same results. To pretend otherwise is, I think, disingenuous. That's what I meant by the arrogance....expecting all other people to meet up to the ability level of a particular gift you have. The average is 100 iq, and there is a pretty big difference in ability level there. It is not something to be proud of, necessarily, as you didn't earn it. Its just a chance blessing of nature....to be enjoyed, appreciated, grateful, but not proud.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:07 PM
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a reply to: onequestion

Not disagreeing, I am asking how "right to work" has destroyed apprenticeships, since right to work was the norm in this country until the 50's.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:17 PM
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I am referring to "right to work" legislation, and I can tell you what it did in Louisiana. Here, it removed unions from the picture, driving wages down, and reducing medical and other benefits for workers. This made it not economically feasible for people to spend a couple years in apprenticeship, which is not subsidized like education is, for jobs that now returned much less pay for the investment of time. What this allowed companies to do was to hire greatly less skilled workers for much lower cost and like everything else in the US.....provide less quality service, for less pay, while continuing to charge greater cost to the customers.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:26 PM
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originally posted by: intrepid
OK. Let's see if I got this straight. I went to university on student loans. I paid off those student loans and now you want MY tax dollars to pay for YOUR education? Have I got that right?





posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:29 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

Which has nothing to do with right to work and has to do with our destroyed economy. In SC which is right to work most of the jobs I look at are equal or better in pay when you factor in cost of living. Unions were needed at one time, now they are part of the problem. We need to scrap them and find a 21st Century solution. It will never happen though unions are too powerful.

I had a long reply to your other post written out but the computers at work suck and it was erased. The jist was that I worked harder than other students, not because I had to, but because of my work ethic.

That same work ethic would get average intelligence students/workers much farther than their current work ethic allows. Many of them had a sense of entitlement, it was almost as if they felt a college degree was a right that was owed them.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 11:40 PM
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a reply to: onequestion

Or you could go an entirely different route for an 18 year old that just graduated high school. The most basic of McJobs out there will pay minimum wage of $7.25/hr. Assuming a 40 hour week with no raises that would be right about $11,600 after taxes. Or right about $58,000 in five years time ($81,200 if you can do seven years).

What am I getting at? If you can handle covering the living expenses of letting stay at home until 23 (or 25 if you go for seven years) on the condition that they save every penny they earn in whatever job they have out of high school, that "child" can go out and pay cash for one of many available houses out there on the bloated market. That means while their friends are sweating over finding a "good job" to pay that massive student loan, your child would fully own their own house with only property taxes, homeowners insurance and utilities. Which would be 60-65 hours at the same old $7.25/hr that they have had the past seven years. Provided of course that they had not found something that paid more in that time frame. But odds are they would have either a job paying around $9-$10 or raises in those seven years to be in that neighborhood.

While it sounds crazy, think about it for a minute. No mortgage, no student loan debt and best of all: 40 years of being able to save for retirement on just a minimum wage job. And if they wanted to make more money by taking classes at a trade school for something that pays a nice hourly wage like welding, plumbing or electrical. They could easily do that as well and pull in a day what they were making in a week at age 20 by the time they were 30. And still have a fully paid house with very little expenses.

Needless to say that college is an option in life, but it is far from being the only option. My idea might be a bit unorthodox and definitely against anything a school guidance counselor would say. But it does accomplish the goal of every parent...that their child will have a better life than they did.

And just for the extra math: Assuming saving 80 hrs/mo pay at $7.25/hr and not earning a penny in interest nor seeing a raise...they could stuff $214,400 in a mattress in 40 years time. Which would cover their expenses until they were 105. Again if everything stayed relative to today's prices. Naturally there would be inflation, increases to minimum wage and interest gained (unless it really was mattress stuffing)



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