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damn do i hate working on newer vehicles

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posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:05 PM
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when i say newer i mean most vehicles manufactured after 2000.

so before i rant let me say i was a mechanic for the first 30 years of my life(im 37)... amateur backyard type mechanic with my father and when i was 18 i got my first job in a shop and worked my way up with certifications....
i got tired of getting paid flat rate and of course the cost of all my tools. vehicles were getting more difficult to work on. when i say difficult i dont mean i couldnt do it. it just stopped paying as well over time due to flat rates and several other things.
the day i decided to stop wrenching was the day i had a car come into the dealership with rough idle and the fix was to download updates from the internet. whhhaaat???!
i had to log into gm with my credentials and downloaded an update that fixed the idle and cleared the code....

now to the rant

wrenching is not as easy for me as it used to be. about 19 months ago i was in an accident at work and got my hand ripped up in a saw. i lost a finger and ruined another. so its constant pain.

anyway, the rant

i have a 2000 ford f-150 with a v-6. im having 2 problems and they both suck for me cause of the design.
first, the tranny.
when i got it i knew it had a small trans fluid leak. trans cooler lines were leaking so i fixed those. i needed to add some trans fluid but i put it off. why did i put it off you ask? well, cause ford decided to design this tranny with no dipstick. it is a 'maintenance free' tranny with a 'sealed system'.
that means no checking fluid levels and obviously no adding fluid when needed.
well it needs it now.
called the dealership just for gigs and the dude said that its going to be at least 100 bucks before they can even start to fill cause they have to hook it up to a computer and read the codes and when it is at operating temp they will know how much fluid has to be put in.
well, that sucks.
the 'fill plug' is on the driver side of the tranny, waaay up at the top of it so it is next to impossible to get to. to add fluid you need to put tranny fluid in a pressure system so you can force fluid up through a tube and into the trans...of course i dont have one of those. i could do it myself if i really wanted to. i would have to get into that fill hole and then rig up a system of sue baction. maybe an asperator hooked to a hose so i could suck fluid into it and then blow it through the hose and into the trans. im not messing with that so i called one of the local dump shops that will do things that are not by the book. he said $20 for labor and however much fluid they have to put in. so, im all over that it just sucks that a person cant even check their trans fluid.

the next rant... same truck

i have been losing all my coolant. for the past month it has been just water cause its still warm enough. when i leave i have to put about a gallon of water in it. i have about 10 gallons in the back so when i am ready to leave i put in another gallon.
well, tired of that. i thought i saw it coming from the intake. those trucks are notorious for that its just damn hard to see.
well today i took a few things out of my way and turns out one of the radiator hoses run into a V and splits into two smaller hoses. the smaller one runs up towards the intake, right behind the thermostat and then it goes from rubber hose to a metal 'stem' that is about 3 inches long and that goes into the intake. well, it is leaking from the stem from just above where it threads into the intake. its cracked and now that i have a good angle i can put eyes right on it. i can barley get to it with my finger though.
so when you take the hose off the stem has a curve to it. it curves away from the fuel plenum. at first look i thought i would be able to unthread it and replace but no no... i would get maybe 1/4 turn before the stem would hit the bottom of the fuel plenum and then turn no more.

you know how bad this sucks? that stem is probably 2 bucks at the most. to get it off...from the top of my head i have to take off the
fuel plenum, throttle body, throttle cluster, air cleaner, various hoses, sensors, and vacuum lines.
that dont seem lke much but its a drag. takes some time and i dont think my hand could take it.

i mean what a load of crap this is. when i moved a couple things i could get in there enough to move a finger around by where it threads in so i think tomorrow i am going to make sure there is no water in it at all. im going to get in there with a wire brush and clean off by where the hole is. after i blow it off and make sure it is dry i am going to try and putty it up with something. jb weld or something like that.
those things harden like cement over night and there is not a lot of pressure going through the line so it should hold. i sure hope so.

if i can get ahold of someone at the foundry i could get a can of lab metal and then i would be in there. that lab metal is a mix of a few things but it is mostly powdered aluminum. you mix it with(i forget what it is called) a solution and it turns it into a paste. you wipe that paste on and in 10 minutes it is as hard as the metal you put it on. its awesome stuff.
i used to use on these ariel castings that i was inspecting. if there were little inclusions that were not of critical size or location i would fill them in with lab metal and then smooth it out. from there i put my inspection number on it and from there it went to columbus for assembly and then to russia to be part of the natural gas pipeline.

anyway, that dont matter. was just trying to get across how sweet that lab metal is

so yeah, there is my rant. the way vehicles are now they suck to wrench on. back in the day, when i first got started and there were no computerized engine controls, if something didnt work you took it off and went to the boneyard and were back doing the install within the hour.
not anymore.

i get pissed off now and i know what i am doing. i feel real bad for people that really dont have a clue.

not just this car either. here is a mini rant.

im sure we have all done brake jobs. well i had a hyundai tiburon. no problems with car but now i need rear pads and rotors. no big right? pull the caliper, pull the pads, compress the piston and then put it back together with new parts. pump the brakes to build pressure and thats it. entry level stuff.
when i got in there i see this goofy looking piston with recesses in it. so, i get my clamp and start jamming on it trying to get it to compress. nothing is happening. im getting ready to flip so i look online at a how to. turns out you need a special tool to clamp into those recesses and then you thread the piston back in, clockwise... from there all steps are the same.
what the hell gives you know. hyundai couldnt just do like all others and have the pistons that everyone has dealt with for the last 20 years?

so there is my rant. feel free to comment, rant towards me, or especially rant about something on your car.
at the very least we can have a conversation about cars. im a big gear head and long time mechanic.
hell you may wind up with some tips and tricks(i dont mean just from me)......i know if i can help you out i will walk you through stuff as best i can.

im sure there are lots of people here that have rants about their pain in the ass veehicles.

another thing just for knowledge... this sealed system crap of not being able to check your own fluids is going to get worse. continued




posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:10 PM
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1 of the guys at the ford dealer i was at a while back said that ford has been telling them(the ford techs) that within the next 5-7 years car owners will not be able to check their tranny fluid or OIL in certain model cars/trucks with certain engine/trans specs.
now that pisses me off. cant even check your own oil???

a couple days after that i was at a parts store and there were people in line and i was telling the dude behind the counter what the guy at ford told me. someone in line next to me said that his wife has a newer bmw and you cant check the oil in that car. there is no dipstick and there is no filler cap on the valve cover.
to check/change/add oil you HAVE to take it to the bmw dealership.

so, just be warned everyone. its changing. it has been slowly getting to this for about 15 years now but it seems like it is going to kick into high gear.

since im not a wrench professionally anymore i have not really worked on a new car in a long time so i dont really know whats what.

along with your rant if any of you are driving newer stuff fell free to share the goofy setup of your vehicle



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:15 PM
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Lmao, haha haha ha ha. You sound like my dad. "Too many #ing sensors on this damned thing."

And I totally agree with the both of you. I got a 98 Toyota 4runner so there isn't much to complain about. Other than the small space for the driver. I'm claustrophobic so I know what a small space is.

But yeah, my dad prefers to work on older models.

As far as all the sensors go, who the # needs all those #ing sensors?



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:26 PM
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I hear ya. What really ticks me off is when you got to do a timing belt on a transverse mounted engine. And the manual says: STEP 1) Remove Engine ($*&$)(#*$%&%&$()_#'

Why can't the engineers just give us a little room or something. And the last time that was it for me. A 2012 or so F250 Diesel. Well it has two fuel pumps, one high pressure and one low pressure at the tank. Anyway, the high pressure pump (on the passenger frame-rail) is put in such a way that the cab has to be lifted off the frame to remove and replace it! I kid you not. The front clip has to come off, all the shifters, wiring, etc. And there is no reason they couldn't have put the pump in upside down or sideways and had access to it. Or, it the worse case and access plate through the floor board of the cab. I let the dealer do it as it had 1000 miles. left on the warranty and they had a overhead crane to lift the super-crew cab.

I used to love to work on cars. Built many engines and like you started on the old stuff with points and a coil. I am an Electronic Tech and I feel for the people that aren't these days. Now I work on my stuff only. And I do so because every time I take it somewhere, I end up having to redo the job anyway.


edit on 19/9/14 by spirit_horse because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:30 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

Maybe it's time for a new truck...or maybe get one old enough that you can work on with no probs. Though those are getting pricey as well.

I had a 2000 4X4 Ranger, manual 5-speed. Great little truck, until the throw-out bearing went balls up. Turns out that you have to drop the tranny, which is not that easy and if memory serves right, even requires loosening the engine mounts. Best cost estimate was $2500.00. I could have bought a brand new transmission for that price. Didn't have a garage either, though I do have the tools.

Ended up selling it "as is".

But I do miss that truck...it was a beast and served me well for ten years.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:36 PM
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i have a 2000 ford f-150 with a v-6. im having 2 problems and they both suck for me cause of the design.
first, the tranny.


I do maintenance, but not on cars. But, from what I've heard, trannies do suck.


when i got it i knew it had a small trans fluid leak.


Yeah. Its no good when you've got a tranny that's not getting proper lubrication. No good at all. Its definitely going to be a problem.




posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:39 PM
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originally posted by: thirdcoast
Lmao, haha haha ha ha. You sound like my dad. "Too many #ing sensors on this damned thing."

And I totally agree with the both of you. I got a 98 Toyota 4runner so there isn't much to complain about. Other than the small space for the driver. I'm claustrophobic so I know what a small space is.

But yeah, my dad prefers to work on older models.

As far as all the sensors go, who the # needs all those #ing sensors?


it dont seem like it to the casual driver but the sensors to help. a lot of it is emission based but sensors control it all. it gives us better fuel response.
mass air flow sensor.......guess what it does
map sensor..........manifold absolute pressure
crank sensor
knock sensor
abs sensor
fuel pressure sensor and regulator
cam sensor
up to 4 O2 sensors
not really sensors but
pcv valve........positive crankcase ventilation
egr valve........exhaust gas recirculation
iac motor.........idle air control
the list goes on and on

oh, i responded to your question in the auto forum. i believe i answered it for you



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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Maybe like everything else cars are being engineered as disposable items like microwaves, computers and a whole host of other things. If you can "wrench" it, get it running by visiting "Pick a part" Then you're not paying the monthly ransom for a new one!



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:42 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

I know what you mean. I have noticed there is 'built in redundancy' in everything these days. I think there are 3 reasons for this.

1. is to keep us spending and so keep us broke.
2. to double the size of economy by reducing the half life of everything and so therefore increase profits.
3. to enable greater and greater corporate control over our lives.

20 years ago I was told by teachers that microsoft etc are 'inventing the future' when they brought out PCs and mobile phones, the Internet etc. Today this statement has proven correct but it is taking on an entirely different meaning. A meaning that even the teachers did not foresee.

By the by, but by taking away the ability of owners to work on and maintain their own cars has quite possibly come from a failure of the auto industry to get government to outlaw owner servicing of vehicles etc on the grounds of road safety so they have resorted to making it physcially impossible to have a car without taking it to a stealership.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:43 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

On the caliper piston, use your c clamp and a pair of channel locks to turn the piston. Some times the turning motion of the clamp will even be enough. When it's not the channel locks get the job done. Put some pressure on the clamp, turn the piston , tighten the clamp, repeat till it's all in.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:44 PM
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a reply to: spirit_horse

people starting out now will never have to work on a car with a carb and points.

a timing belt rant...ok

on that hyundai after some serious miles i slipped time so i need to put a water pump on it.
hell no i wasnt dealing with that. first off its timing chain and its a duel overhead cam....sooo no
i mention that because(now i dont know what genius thought this up) the water pump runs off of the timing chain.
uuuh, hello. serpentine belt that has worked for 87 billion cars wont work on this one? you have to throw some huge job at me for a water pump. i always call and price these jobs out and this one came in at $1100. thats for a water pump. but you have to take the top end apart and mess with the duel cams and duel chains.
no thanks. car was sold as is



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:49 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

I remember painting a auto shop back in '86 that specialized in the more than common variety of foreign cars, Logos and everything. A Ferrari came in needing a water pump. The shop charged $5500.00 for it with labor! WOW! That's insane I thought.

Of course it was a Ferrari.
edit on 19-9-2014 by TDawgRex because: Grammar check



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:51 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

It is not so bad.
The Truck is repairable.

1. If you have over 100k miles on it,
drain the tranny fluid, and refill with Mercon
until starts to overflow out of the filler plug.
You will need 5 quarts min. of fluid, and a
siphon pump. (20 Bux).
It would be cool to have a helper for 15 minutes
to help keep the hoses from rattlesnaking on you.

2. Replace the Upper and Lower Intake manifold gaskets.
While you are at it, and have easy access, replace the
valve cover gaskets.
3.There is a cheap black plastic valve that connects FOUR
hoses. these go to your heater core. It has a metal wire
elbow sticking out of it.
Replace it Now. Use new hose clamps instead of the factory
spring clamps.

4. While your at it, check/replace upper and lower radiator
hoses and clamps. The four smaller diameter heater core hoses
as well.

5. Check front and rear differential 90wt. gear oil.
(top off to drain plugs)
6. Change oil/air/filter/plugs/ PCV valve/ Ignition wires
if needed.
7. Add STP or Techron fuel injector cleaner and fill the tank
half way with High Octane.
8. Your Truck is now Bad Ass again and runs like a dream.

9. If you have Four Wheel Drive, Change the Fluid on the
Transfer Case.

10. Put the petal to the metal and get out of town for a
a while.

P.S. If you have any advise for me on my ticking valves/lifters
please let me know. As I believe they are "Non-Adjustable".


S&F

edit on 19-9-2014 by Wildmanimal because: Add Content

edit on 19-9-2014 by Wildmanimal because: typo

edit on 19-9-2014 by Wildmanimal because: another typo



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:52 PM
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a reply to: TDawgRex

had that truck been a 2 wheel drive it would have been far easier and cheaper. you could have pulled that trans out yourself. it was the 4 wheel that got you.
i used to pull rear wheel drive trannys out all the time. i would rack the car and raise it up so i could slide under on my creeper. i would get it all unhooked and lay the tranny right on my chest and slide out. first time i did that was to an old delta.

a lot of techs i worked with would bust my balls cause of how i worked. im a tall guy. 6 foot 3. those racks go up pretty high but when im under it working i have to stand at a goofy angle and it sucks... i got tired of doing it like that so whenever the job permitted i would rack it and then lift it just enough so i could get under and get comfy on my creeper and work from my back.

worked out real well for me.

this one shop we did a lot of brake jobs too. so you know, lots of laps around the car. these techs would raise it all the way up and do it all standing. i raised it up several feet so it was eye level. my eye level was low though cause i had a bad ass computer chair that i would roll on from wheel to wheel.
none of them ever did that stuff and i did it all the time.

they also used to rag on my because i wore black rubber gloves. would buy boxes of them on the tool truck. i wasnt afraid to get dirty but i didnt want to stand at our nasty shop sink with the rest of the techs scrubbing under our nails for 10 minutes. so, i wore gloves. when it was time to go i pulled the gloves off and i was on my way. i was long gone and they were still scrubbing nails.
not afraid to get dirty but i dont want my finger nails to be all funk



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:52 PM
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a reply to: TDawgRex

had that truck been a 2 wheel drive it would have been far easier and cheaper. you could have pulled that trans out yourself. it was the 4 wheel that got you.
i used to pull rear wheel drive trannys out all the time. i would rack the car and raise it up so i could slide under on my creeper. i would get it all unhooked and lay the tranny right on my chest and slide out. first time i did that was to an old delta.

a lot of techs i worked with would bust my balls cause of how i worked. im a tall guy. 6 foot 3. those racks go up pretty high but when im under it working i have to stand at a goofy angle and it sucks... i got tired of doing it like that so whenever the job permitted i would rack it and then lift it just enough so i could get under and get comfy on my creeper and work from my back.

worked out real well for me.

this one shop we did a lot of brake jobs too. so you know, lots of laps around the car. these techs would raise it all the way up and do it all standing. i raised it up several feet so it was eye level. my eye level was low though cause i had a bad ass computer chair that i would roll on from wheel to wheel.
none of them ever did that stuff and i did it all the time.

they also used to rag on my because i wore black rubber gloves. would buy boxes of them on the tool truck. i wasnt afraid to get dirty but i didnt want to stand at our nasty shop sink with the rest of the techs scrubbing under our nails for 10 minutes. so, i wore gloves. when it was time to go i pulled the gloves off and i was on my way. i was long gone and they were still scrubbing nails.
not afraid to get dirty but i dont want my finger nails to be all funk



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 10:57 PM
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originally posted by: CardiffGiant

originally posted by: thirdcoast
Lmao, haha haha ha ha. You sound like my dad. "Too many #ing sensors on this damned thing."

And I totally agree with the both of you. I got a 98 Toyota 4runner so there isn't much to complain about. Other than the small space for the driver. I'm claustrophobic so I know what a small space is.

But yeah, my dad prefers to work on older models.

As far as all the sensors go, who the # needs all those #ing sensors?


it dont seem like it to the casual driver but the sensors to help. a lot of it is emission based but sensors control it all. it gives us better fuel response.
mass air flow sensor.......guess what it does
map sensor..........manifold absolute pressure
crank sensor
knock sensor
abs sensor
fuel pressure sensor and regulator
cam sensor
up to 4 O2 sensors
not really sensors but
pcv valve........positive crankcase ventilation
egr valve........exhaust gas recirculation
iac motor.........idle air control
the list goes on and on

oh, i responded to your question in the auto forum. i believe i answered it for you


Yes sir, you did answer. And i think it proves my point. Too many #ing sensors on a #ing vehicle.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:08 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

The reason there aren't any dipsticks on the newer
gear is because the fluid(often synthetic) has a much
longer lifespan. For Tranny, upwards of 100k.
Most people do not own their cars that long anymore.

The idiot light goes on at scheduled mileage intervals,
and folks do what they are told.

As far as the fuel plenum being in the way, do the right
thing. Remove it, and re thread the new part correctly.
edit on 19-9-2014 by Wildmanimal because: typo



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:14 PM
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a reply to: CardiffGiant

I feel for you guy.. My ex-husband was a mechanic, musician, lawyer... Long story any way we where in Detroit during the big strikes in the seventy or eighty's I am not sure exactly (I am way to old and I am a recovering addict ) Any whoo.. He was playing music at one of the bars the engineers from ford hung out at. When you are on strike you always have money for your beer. Well my husband and I asked about what where they thinking designing engines like that? There answer was "We didn't , it was the computers fault" We get an engine to work correctly turn it over to production, they figure out the best way to run it down an assembly line and you get an ass backwards engine you can't reach anything on. then they would smile and order another draft. It doesn't help but that is the answer we got .



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:19 PM
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a reply to: spirit_horse

Well isn't that the "Monkeys Uncle"?

New stuff is designed to have to be brought
in to " A Professional", but then you have to
correctly repair it yourself if you want it
done right. A real Catch 22.

By the way, while your working on your next new
set of wheels, feel free to rip out all the tracking
devices and reprogram the CPU.

Rip out the digital stereo system as well.

Install a vintage 8 track or at least an old
Blaupunkt Cassette Deck for Hoots and Giggles.

Your Soul Will Thank You For It.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:25 PM
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a reply to: learnatic

i never could get a straight answer on the why's. even when i was at the dealership, the GM and the service manager didnt tell me anything. it is getting to the point where you have to take it in. of course now there are still things we can fix but those things are going away.
here is my theory. dealerships are split in half. service and sales. the service department is what makes the nut(the monthly income)...the sales department is the profit.
so i think it goes like this.
little by little cars are getting to where you have to take them to the dealership. now, most people are loyal to 1 make of car(ford guys/chevy guys)..from there they are usually loyal to 1 dealership and thats where they bought it. so, they take it in for service. then again and again. this goes on for months and years. each time he brings it in for issue x the techs will advise that along with x, you fix y and z also... starting to get more frequent cause its getting older and it is starting to get more expensive.
so what winds up happening? x amount of years and miles in he is tired of all the crap that he has had to fix so he is going to buy another vehicle and the cycle starts all over again.
the sales department knows the customers that have been in for their cars. they know what problems, how much has been fixed, how much it cost. the sales managers get all those reports.
then the pitch starts.

customer will get a card in the mail from sales saying they see you have a service appt on monday the 23rd..well since youre a loyal customer bring this card in while your car is being serviced and redeem the card for a free this or that from the sales department. all the while mr customer is talking to sales and he is giving him info and answering questions.
sales guy is saying how much he can get him for his trade and blah blah....this guy trades in and buys a new one.

ive seen it happen a lot. one of them really struck with me. this dude had a cavalier. it was almost 5 years old cause he was in making his last payment. one of the sales guys knew this and went to chat with him. about 3 hours later the guy got low balled on his trade and drove out of there in a brand new high interest cavalier.
ahahahah
happened all the time.
my theory is design them so customers have to take them in. most people take them where they bought them. after so long vehicle gets traded in(and now for sale in the 'pre owned' section) and the customer rolls out with a new vehicle.

thats the theory.
i could tell you some stories about how shady it is. after i left the tech position there i worked sales for a year(recovering from surgery) and let me tell you i hated it. worst job ever.

i dont know where to start the thread but i could tell you how their F&I works when you buy a new one. it is so disgusting it should be illegal.
i will tell you one but i will try to be fast.
its called points on the back end. hopefully i explain this so you understand. i am going to use easy numbers

so john is buying a new f-150. they run his credit and send it over to the bank to see if they will float the deal. the bank buys it so great news for the customer..........
"customer john, great news. wells fargo has qualified you for the fantastic rate of 11%. if you give us a moment we can go into the finance office and sign the papers and have you on your way in your new truck. dont worry we are going to wash it and fill it up with gas for you"

so great deal? first off on what planet is 11% good on a car? its not
thing is john was just stoked to get a car. now for what john dont know. the back end points.
when they sent the deal to the bank they didnt just send it to 1 bank. they send it to about 30 banks. not even in the same state all of them. lets say wells fargo was the best deal because they agreed to finance it at 7%.
what do you mean 7? this is the crap rip off part that should be illegal

the dealership gets the deal financed through the bank at 7% but they told the customer the great news about him getting 11%....the bank actually took it at 7% but he knows nothing about it and is signing papers at 11%
where does the extra 4% interest go? right to the dealership. they keep the back end points.
i guess it is not illegal but it is shady. they told him he qualified for 11% and he did. he also qualified at 7% but they didnt tell him that.
happens every day all day at those dealerships. i guess we cant blame the customer. how is he supposed to know about back end deals?
there are MILLIONS of dollars made every month for the dealership doing this and this is just 1 tactic.
there are things called hold back and dealer cash. the customer should get some of that but the dealership keeps it.
not lying when i say millions per month either. the ford dealer a few miles from my house sells 400 new cars every month. even if they held back points on half of them, that is a ton of cash....its crazy.
if you buy a new car and they run your credit and come out with the great news we got you 10% line, my advice would be to take their worksheet with the numbers and go to YOUR bank and have them run your credit, i guarantee you that you will get a better rate almost 100% of the time. have your bank buy the deal and then walk into the dealer with a bank check.
best way to do it.
the 400 new cars per month is just new cars too. they probably sell 600 used cars every month. i would say the service department sees at least 50 cars per day. they have a couple fast lanes for easy stuff.
when you put it like that you can see how much cash is flowing through those places. its insane. it is in the best interest of the auto engineers to manufacture the cars like this so they can have them serviced and start the process.
last thing about the banks that buy the deals... we used to get schmoozed by the local banks every day. reps would come in almost daily with gift cards for nice restaurants. they would pay for golf trips. send us to baseball games. we would get personalized coffee cups and what not. all the time this was going on. its like a pharmacy rep with free samples. these reps would schmooze us so when we had a deal we would send it to their bank so they could buy the deal at a few points higher than what they qualify for. dealership keeps the back end and the bank just signed a 60-72 month loan at 11%....ching ching my friends....hell ive seen people sign car loans for 84 and even 96 months...THATS 8 YEARS....

sorry to get off topic




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