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The ways of sacrifice; Abraham and Isaac

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posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Why would a true God of love, ever need sacrifices from you begin with? Or anyone for that matter? Is said God lacking in power without such actions on his behalf or something?

Wouldn't he she it offer a perpetually overflowing cup? Why would God ever ask to violate the very moral code we are born with? Why would the true God command items against said code like murder, xenophobia, war, racism, genocide, intolerance, and racial superiority?




posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 05:07 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

There is no intended hostility from me. If you think I've studied the material in a 'simplistic perused through some pages' sort of way I assure you that is not the case. If you believe in once saved always saved then I'm covered. I will be more than willing to explain to God why I chose to be an atheist. Jokes aside. Please don't think of me as hostile because I can point out flaws in your posts. I mean just as much good will as you do and what we are ultimately doing is trying to get each other to see something from our perspectives. When you can provide some good counter arguments I will be prepared to reconsider my position.

You have given no honest answer to this post.



Let's say your hypothesis is correct. By responding favorably to Jephtah's willingness, what message did that send? What conclusions do you think Jephtah came to? Maybe that his God did indeed want the sacrifice?


Unless your honest answer is none of it is Gods fault even though he gave every indication he approved.

edit on 21-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
There is no hostility from me.

The comment about hostility (to the material) was not referring to you. There are other users on this thread.


You have given no honest answer to..
Let's say your hypothesis is correct. By responding favorably to Jephtah's willingness, what message did that send? What conclusions do you think Jephtah came to? Maybe that his God did indeed want the sacrifice?

I gave one, but in haste did not spell it out very well.
Firstly, God's favourable response did nothing much to create or reinforce Jepthah's belief that sacrifice would please God, because the belief was already there, firmly embedded.
That was the point of observing that the belief was already a settled part of Israel's understanding.

Secondly, the favourable response did not confirm that God would accept THE sacrifice as it finally developed.
It only confirmed the idea that God would accept A sacrifice, that he approved of sacrifices in general.
That does not amount to an endorsement of the kind of sacrifice which emerged.

Beyond that, we get once more into the old game of "God must be responsible for every bad thing that happens, because he doesn't stop it".



edit on 21-9-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

No hostility from me either. I just have questions. I was not aware questions, and simple statements of fact, and sharing knowledge, is now considered hostile.

If you want true hostility, simply read it from the scripture itself. A good many examples to choose from, with what I'd consider true hostility towards other humans, animals, and even the Earth itself!

Why does YHWH God hate me so???


edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 21 2014 @ 07:44 PM
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WoW Oh WoW
This God Stuff just gives me a Headache, I truly tried to follow, But I can't.
I guess it's because I was raised in a Godless Country and Family.
Sorry, I can'y follow.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:42 AM
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a reply to: guohua
Thank you for turning up, anyway.
This wasn't exactly an "entry-level" topic, so there is no great shame in finding it hard to follow.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 11:43 AM
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Bloodthirsty, primitive people require scapegoats in order to shed themselves of any guilt or ills they think they posses.

What was the big Jeezy if not a scapegoat?

It's merely lazy thinking that fits perfectly into a religion/cult narrative.

But yeah make it unnecessarily complicated and contrived in an effort to have it make sense.




posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:08 PM
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It is assuming much that the “voice “Abraham” heard to sacrifice Issac was the creator God. Abraham was prone to BIG mistakes .When he was Abraham he lied to a King that Sarai was his sister and almost got them killed.When Sarah didn’t get pregnant in his time frame he went along with Sarah and mated with her hand servant Hagar... and that didn’t turn out well at all.

Now Abraham “believes” the creator God wants him to ritually sacrifice his son.This shows a clear path of behavior of someone who doesn’t “obey” very well.Obey means to “hear” and perceive not slavishly carry out an “order” . In modern English vernacular...Abraham was not to swift on the uptake in this woman, kid category.

It’s absolutely ludicrous to believe the creator God was “testing” Abraham to see if he “believed” the creator God especially since the creator God is not the one that told” him to sacrifice Isaac.The scriptures and Yahoshua clearly delineated that obedience (which means to hear and understand..not slavishly follow an order) is better than sacrifice and the creator God does not desire sacrifice at all it is mans desire.

Common reason deduces Abraham was not “obedient “.He did not “hear” the creator God he heard “himself”. The fact is “man” only acts according to their nature and character.If they are clueless by nature they will act cluelessly in character. The people written of in the scriptures are normal people.They had no super special “spiritual nature”(a meaningless term).

Abraham was a “take your son to a mountain and sacrifice him to a God” kind of a guy who’s attention is swayed when they see a ram caught in a bush as a “sign” from God.Did the creator God “maneuver that poor hapless ram into the bush for ADD riddled Abraham to see…I don’t see why not…rams probably “obey” much better than people like Abraham (and they taste better too!!).

So was anything really learned form this “ritual sacrifice story”by Abraham or his descendants…..maybe don’t kill your kid when you can kill a ram and eat it also but…. not a helluva lot more. Abrahams ancestor were a brutal lot. Issac was cool but his sons were a MESS!.Jacob (the heel catching conniver) effs his brother Esau over (with the help of his MOTHER!) for his inheritance…but no good deed goes unpunished…he has effed up kids also.

Jacob then passed his brutality down to his sons when they decided one of the “runts” Joseph was in need of a serious attitude adjustment so instated of killing him they sold him into slavery to be tortured and told dad some animals ate him…real nice guys those sons of Israel….and the stories go on and on of a clueless savage religious people that couldn’t hear God with a mile high hearing aid…so Abraham…yep… he is the “father of many nations”of clueless bastards however the real story is Israel is an archetype…. of ALL of mankind.The good the bad and the ugly of ugly.Like Father like son.

If anyone wants to learn “morals and ethics ” from the “bible’ I suggest don’t steal one…or even buy one..or even read it(and God forbid do NOT study it like it’s a manual of life or a book of moral and ethics)…even the scriptures have a way of “revealing” the nastiness of nasties.The creator God does not need or desire sacrifice only”obedience” which is hearing/perceiving TRUTH …..not making up religion.


edit on 22-9-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: Rex282

Don't forget Abraham and his 'shes my sister' lie he used. One he got free property out of, and passed down among his lineage for them to use as well.

He's not very trustworthy if you ask me. Maybe he did sacrifice a son up on that hill and lied about it later. One of his servants or a child from his concubine? So many possibilities.



Maybe that was why he gave everything to Isaac. He witnessed said sacrifice and used it against Abramham as blackmail.

The chutzpah to assume the real Creator God accepts this behavior is mind boggling and is absolutely flabbergasting.
edit on 22-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-9-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized

Don't forget Abraham and his 'shes my sister' lie he used. One he got free property out of, and passed down among his lineage for them to use as well.
quote
I did mention that in my opening statement


originally posted by: Not Authorized
He's not very trustworthy if you ask me. Maybe he did sacrifice a son up on that hill and lied about it later. One of his servants or a child from his concubine? So many possibilities.



I'm sure Abraham is far from perfect however I'm not into reading into the scriptures.Lets just leave his status it at "clueless" about somethings.



originally posted by: Not Authorized
Maybe that was why he gave everything to Isaac. He witnessed said sacrifice and used it against Abramham as blackmail.



naw... no sense in casting aspersion without a cause.Issac seems to be one of the few sensible ones in the whole crew.


originally posted by: Not Authorized
The chutzpah to assume the real Creator God accepts this behavior is mind boggling and is absolutely flabbergasting.


yes the general MO is to read into the scripture what isn't there.The Loving God of the universe is gonna GET you my pretties if you don't believe in them and love them back!!


edit on 22-9-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 03:01 PM
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hmmmmm.... this is what I posted above but it "censored" it...


Don't forget Abraham and his 'shes my sister' lie he used. One he got free property out of, and passed down among his lineage for them to use as well.

——————————————
I did mention that in my opening statement
——————————
He's not very trustworthy if you ask me. Maybe he did sacrifice a son up on that hill and lied about it later. One of his servants or a child from his concubine? So many possibilities.
———————
I’m sure Abraham is far from perfect however I'm not into reading into the scriptures.Lets just leave his status it at "clueless" about somethings.
—————

Maybe that was why he gave everything to Isaac. He witnessed said sacrifice and used it against Abramham as blackmail.
————————
naw... no sense in casting aspersion without a cause .Isaac seems to be oneof the few sensible ones in the whole crew.

—————————
The chutzpah to assume the real Creator God accepts this behavior is mind boggling and is absolutely flabbergasting.
———————————————————

yes the general MO is to read into the scripture what isn't there.The Loving God of the universe is gonna GET you my pretties if you don't believe in them and love them back!!
edit on 22-9-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-9-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 04:49 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I am unconvinced. My opinion is you are trying to defend a tyrant, with inventive interpretations to justify his actions (or lack thereof depending).

We will just have to agree to disagree.



Beyond that, we get once more into the old game of "God must be responsible for every bad thing that happens, because he doesn't stop it".


Yeah, I would argue he would ultimately be responsible. Not necessarily because he doesn't stop every bad thing though. This is a topic for another thread. One I mentioned I was working on and intend to post this week. It's going to be about morality. I would definitely be interested to see you there!

Take care




edit on 22-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 05:20 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
It's going to be about morality. I would definitely be interested to see you there!

The subject would be too wide to get me involved, like the scatter-gun approach that people sometimes try to introduce into my own threads.
My response to this kind of issue comes in the threads that I'm writing myself, one piece of the jigsaw at a time.



posted on Sep, 22 2014 @ 09:51 PM
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a reply to: Rex282

I didn't even see that. I guess that's what happens when you run off 5 hours of sleep. Lol.

Loved your ending comment. It is so true.



posted on Sep, 23 2014 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: AlephBet
Thank you, but I prefer to use the information I can get out of the passage more directly.



posted on Sep, 25 2014 @ 05:10 PM
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There will be other threads on different aspects of sacrifice, but this thread is also the most recent in a group dealing with the question of Sin, as found in Genesis;

Did they eat from the Tree of Life?
The Tree of what Knowledge?
With knowledge comes death?
Original Sin revisited
The story of Cain and Babel
The two Floods of Genesis
The covenant with Abram



posted on Dec, 24 2016 @ 11:03 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
I'm with you excepting one detail. God already knew what Abraham would do. So it isn't god that needed to know that Abraham "feared" him. God didn't need to know anything. It's Abraham that needed to learn something from the experience, as well as those he related the story to after. The question is...what exactly was god teaching Abraham?
hiring procedures.



posted on Dec, 24 2016 @ 11:09 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: DISRAELI

I am unconvinced. My opinion is you are trying to defend a tyrant, with inventive interpretations to justify his actions (or lack thereof depending).

We will just have to agree to disagree.



Beyond that, we get once more into the old game of "God must be responsible for every bad thing that happens, because he doesn't stop it".


Yeah, I would argue he would ultimately be responsible. Not necessarily because he doesn't stop every bad thing though. This is a topic for another thread. One I mentioned I was working on and intend to post this week. It's going to be about morality. I would definitely be interested to see you there!

Take care



it's relevant, God had Abraham do something bad knowing he would do what's good while God does bad where necessary for Balance in order to keep Abraham from doing bad that stops God. Meet in the middle where both already did what was right on order to stop each other and. Ta-da, beauty.



posted on Dec, 25 2016 @ 12:09 AM
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originally posted by: Unity_99
In reality he was practicing the very same beliefs our elite practice and was ritually sacrificing his son for "wisdom", the perks they think they're evil overlords give them and they also believe, immunity from karma.

Michael, Jaliel, also known as Jophiel and Zadkiel stopped him because they're the true Angels and Higher Ups, and set him straight.

There is also a possibility of it being a gnostic meaning only, except that that kind of thing always goes on amongst the elite and powerful.
bull#. I'm war, Sophie, and Leviathan. I'm a purely physical man who reproves all gods and the only thing that is only one thing and it's not just because I'm special. Correct, were suppose to do it first. Easier.



posted on Dec, 30 2016 @ 04:47 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

The Bible says Abraham's first born was the aborted sacrifice.

That's Ishmael, and the very reason Muslims say Ishmael was the one.

I could see that being true in one version and not the other and when combined it became Issac and they forgot to change it too second born.

Ishmael was legitimate by the standards of the day.

The thing is, if something tells you to kill your child to prove your loyalty by attempting to go through with it he failed to be loyal to his son.

That Abraham was willing shows he was familiar with and willing to participate in child sacrifice.

Jacob, on the other hand, stood up to God and forced a blessing from him. He became Israel meaning "wrestles with God."

Abraham was also a pimp in the Bible and to his own wife.
edit on 30-12-2016 by GnosticusMaximus because: (no reason given)




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