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Scotland to get more powers - England to be ignored...

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posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:42 AM
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Thought I'd start a thread on this as it is something that I have campaigned for over the years, namely English MP's being able to decide English Law.

For those who don't know, the UK Parliament is made up of MP's from all four Home Nations - Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales.

Since devolution, where Wales, N.Ireland and Scotland each got their own version of home rule, there has been a funny quirk in the UK Parliament where, on certain issues, it can only pass law affecting England (and sometimes Wales), but MP's from the other Nations are allowed to vote on those matters. Conversely, English MP's have no say in how those exact same issues voted on in the UK Parliament are treated elsewhere.

Case in point - and I know I bang on about this but it is a perfect example - Tuition fees. These are fee's charged to University students for their courses which are paid back after graduation and you reach a certain threshold in income.

The Labour Government, in 2004, with its 46 Scottish MP's managed to pass it with a slim majority of 5 votes!.

What's the problem, I hear you ask? Well, this law only affected England and Wales - it did not cover Scotland. So what we had, in effect, was MP's voting on a Law that would not even affect their own constituents and as a result of those MP,s a law was passed which is deeply unpopular and still is today, leading to English University students with £9000 a year bills for their studies, while Scottish students get it paid for by the Government.

Now, today, not even 24 hours after the Referendum in Scotland, the Tories want to bring in an "English votes on English matters" in the UK Parliament, but this is being blocked and called a "knee jerk reaction" - despite the problem being decades old - by Labour and the Lib Dems, for entirely party political reasons.

Labour fear losing any influence in Parliament because they rely on those Scots MP's to boost their numbers, as they are not that popular a party in the UK outside the Northern cities.

So, despite promises being made of "radical and speedy constitutional change", the People of England are about to sold out, again, while the People of Scotland (and I am not blaming them at all) get even more powers devolved to them....



David Cameron has made it clear he wants a decisive answer to the English Question. Plenty of Conservatives have made it clear they favour a system of English votes for English laws.

In other words a solution that builds on and perhaps goes further than the proposals from Kenneth Clarke and Sir William McKay.

It's much more difficult for Labour. The party's chances of getting a majority at Westminster could rest on its Scottish MPs. A solution that prevents MPs from outside England voting on certain issues could make life very difficult for a future Labour government.

Labour has described Mr Cameron's plan as a "knee-jerk reaction".

The Liberal Democrat leader, Nick Clegg, says it would be "unfair" to leave Westminster out of what he calls the "rewiring" of the British constitution.

But earlier this week, the Lib Dem Treasury Minister Danny Alexander said taking away the voting rights of Scottish MPs wasn't part of the agenda and wasn't going to happen.


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posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: stumason

Doesn't seem fair but I'm not in the UK so it doesn't effect me either way and I don't have a dog in that fight.

I hope you kids work it out nicely.

P.S. I miss Benny Hill.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:51 AM
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originally posted by: stumason
The Labour Government, in 2004, with its 46 Scottish MP's managed to pass it with a slim majority of 5 votes!.

I was fuming about that, and not a one Scot (or US descendents of Scots) agreed how unfair it was when they were whinging in every pre-referendum thread I participated in.
I hope we will all work for a fairer union for all of us, but it is certainly now up to the English voters to fight as vociferously for equality in the union the Scots have now voted to be members of.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: SLAYER69

Well, it isn't very fair at all, but us English being English we've quietly put up with it and only raise it in quiet conversation


When the "West Lothian" or "English Question" was asked in political circles, a famous response by the then (Scottish) Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine was

"The best answer to that Question is not to ask it"........

Apparently, according to the politicians (namely the Labour ones) is that it is "very complicated" to sort out - is it? Is it really? It cannot be that hard to have only English MP's vote on matters that affect only England.

I will go on record and say that during the vote about Tuition fees, the SNP MP's in Westminster did abstain, so I doff my hat to them for having the decency to not vote on a matter which would not affect them. I just wish other MP's would do the same and stop playing party politics with people's lives



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 12:01 PM
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Maybe England could have a referendum on whether or not to leave the United Kingdom.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 12:06 PM
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a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Whilst they might have been happy to let the Scots do so (as I believe they thought it an easy win, despite what happened) they would never allow that to take place.

What is being discussed is "regional parliaments" - this has been tried before and was rejected by the North East where they held the vote. I do not see why the other nations get Home Rule in it's entirety, but England can only get devolution away from Westminster if we split into ill-defined "regions".. To me, that is an awful lot like "balkanisation" of England, or to put it another way, divide and rule....



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 12:08 PM
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You think not having an English parliament is bad. How much do you think it's going to kick off when Labour win the next general election and we lose our say over an EU referendum.

I hate Labour.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: VictorVonDoom
Most English folk just want a fair union for all of us.
It appears that most Scottish folk want a fair union with us as well, so there is hope, now those who wanted to break away are forced to accept democracy.
We want fairness that's all, and right now the Welsh, Northern Irish, and Scottish enjoy benefits of the union which we in England do not.
It is the time for change, it is the time for equity and agreement between all of us who have chosen to be in union together. When all parties are equal players then we can all stop our bitching and move on...together.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 12:32 PM
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a reply to: DAZ21

Do you think Labour will win?

They have no concrete policy on anything (apart from making things cost more by threatening to freeze prices) and just blunder from one policy to the next.

The Tories, for all their worth, have done exactly what they said would do. The economy is on the mend, it has (to a point) diversified away from Financial services, taxes are lower and if they stick the course, we'll be in budget surplus come 2018.

If Labour get in, it'll be the same tax and spend... People aren't that stupid.

Besides, Milliband is unelectable.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Ok lets look at this logically.
Firstly I hope I'm wrong but I predict a Labour win.

With the surge of UKIP I will expect them to take a small percentage of Labour votes, and a larger portion of Conservative votes. Effectively this will split the conservative vote and be detrimental.

Labour supporters on the other hand will almost always vote Labour, I don't know why, it's just the way they are. The liberals are dead thanks to Clegg, and with a hatred for what the coalition and conservatives have done to their party any supporters will flock mostly to Labour, increasing the yes vote exponentially.

I would say I'm almost 100% certain of a Labour win, and would put my money on it if it wouldn't make me feel so sick.

Ed Miliband has already stated he's not willing to give a referendum on EU, why would he? It would be political suicide for Labour. This is what will happen. If it doesn't I'm that certain it will, that I'm willing to say I'd never ever write another word on ATS if I'm wrong.


Edit: I predicted the Scottish vote somewhere on ATS would be a NO vote with 55%...


edit on 19-9-2014 by DAZ21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: DAZ21
You think not having an English parliament is bad. How much do you think it's going to kick off when Labour win the next general election and we lose our say over an EU referendum.

I hate Labour.


So do I. Labour core supporters are the absolutely desperate poor - no education, no savings, usually single mothers or poor pensioners.

They have had 30 years to fix the problems with Glasgow and Dundee, but they can't do a thing. What are their solutions? The traditional solution is to move the poor to Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and somehow magically and mystically, they will find employment and prosperity. Unfortunately, there are around 600,000 looking for a new future. Second solution is to try and grab educated people from these cities and shove them into the socially deprived areas, and somehow, wealth will appear from nowhere.

I saw what Labour were doing with the electioneering - they played on the minds of the single mothers/battered women, with their "Big scary man", and the "Wee funny man", with the "You don't want independence love, you'll be all on your own, with no-one to take care of you. It's not worth it, what will you do? Stay with us, and we'll take care of you. It's just not worth it. You don't know what you are doing. The big scary man will just put you back into the situation you were before. The wee man will make you laugh and find happiness".


edit on 19-9-2014 by stormcell because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Whilst they might have been happy to let the Scots do so (as I believe they thought it an easy win, despite what happened) they would never allow that to take place.

What is being discussed is "regional parliaments" - this has been tried before and was rejected by the North East where they held the vote. I do not see why the other nations get Home Rule in it's entirety, but England can only get devolution away from Westminster if we split into ill-defined "regions".. To me, that is an awful lot like "balkanisation" of England, or to put it another way, divide and rule....


The problem with the current setup is that economic decisions on spending are usually to benefit the South East. "Billion pound high speed rail line between London and the Home counties? "No problem, here's my gold credit card. Don't spend it all at once." "Electrification of the railway lines between Scotland and the North of England? Er, um, let me check my purse, oh, sorry love, we've just got spare change. Try again tomorrow".



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: stormcell

That much is true, to a point and there should be more spent regenerating the North (North East in particular), although I must point out the high speed lines are being built up to Leeds, aren't they? Also, I thought both the East and West coast lines have already been electrified, at great cost? You also have to bear in mind a great proportion of the population lives in the South East, so if spending per head was even across the country, which I know it is not likely to be, then it stands to reason more money will be spent there.

All that said, I do agree that most decisions do appear to be "London centric" - even where I live, we had to campaign hard to get the billion pound crossrail extended.



posted on Sep, 19 2014 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: stumason

"Get even more powers devolved to them...."

Your words. YOUR country that you are so proud of gets to GIVE powers to Scotland. And you're complaining about what exactly?

No law abiding country should be told which powers they can have. Ironic how you claim to fighting for a fairer future and promote democracyreform.co.uk. Your country is in a priviliged and unique position of responsibility to 5.3 million Scots (plus Wales and NI) and you flaunt it like it's a hobby.

I stand by my word, you are the worst kind of wind up merchant and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Your comments are offensive and disgusting and contradict the ideals you advertise. You verge on the far right.




edit on 19-9-2014 by helldiver because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 02:22 AM
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originally posted by: helldiver
Your words. YOUR country that you are so proud of gets to GIVE powers to Scotland. And you're complaining about what exactly?


Don't be an arse - you know full well it is the UK Parliament, not England, devolving powers and you know exactly what I am "complaining" about.


originally posted by: helldiver
No law abiding country should be told which powers they can have. Ironic how you claim to fighting for a fairer future and promote democracyreform.co.uk. Your country is in a priviliged and unique position of responsibility to 5.3 million Scots (plus Wales and NI) and you flaunt it like it's a hobby.


England is in no such position and you know it - it is the only nation in the Union that has MP's from the other nations deciding it's laws. You're quite disingenuous to think it is anything else.


originally posted by: helldiver
I stand by my word, you are the worst kind of wind up merchant and you should be ashamed of yourself.


Not in the slightest - what is actually happening here is a whining Scot, who is bitter about his countrymen exercising their democratic right and choosing something he didn't agree with, trying his level best (but doing oh so badly) at sticking the oar in wherever he can.

I'm not trying to wind anyone up in this thread and it is a genuine issue that politicians have been wrangling over for years, thankfully brought to a head by the Scottish vote.


originally posted by: helldiver
Your comments are offensive and disgusting and contradict the ideals you advertise. You verge on the far right.


And pray tell, what exactly is "offensive and disgusting" about anything that I have said? Far right? Get over yourself. With the vitriol you've been spouting since losing the vote, I think you need to examine yourself and ask if it is you lurching to the right.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 02:25 AM
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a reply to: DAZ21

I hope you're wrong too! It's too soon for Labour, they'll spend all the money again!

However, in the Euro elections where we saw UKIP steal votes, they took as many off Labour as they did the Tories - because Labour refuse point blank to entertain the idea of our position in the EU which affects working class jobs - and the thing is, defecting Labour voters are seen as less likely to come back, whereas Tory voters might well do. I myself was one of those UKIP voters in the EU elections, just to put the wind up 'em, but I may well vote Tory next year in the GE.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 02:31 AM
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Christ, I wish so badly that Scotland had voted Yes. I got tired of listening to this kind of whinging years ago when the issue first came up, now we get to listen to it indefinitely......

Scotland has shown the world it is a cowardly, servile nation. We've disappointed a lot of people all over the globe, that's what I'm coming to find out.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 02:55 AM
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a reply to: Gododdin

And the rest of us are finding out that a minority of Scots are bitter whingers who only pretend to believe in democracy if they think it will give them what they want, then denounce it as corrupt and start talking about getting lawyers in, people who don't agree with them are cowards, etc, when they lose. Pathetic. You'd get on well with the EDL idiot I told to bugger off in Rotherham last week.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 03:12 AM
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originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Whilst they might have been happy to let the Scots do so (as I believe they thought it an easy win, despite what happened) they would never allow that to take place.

What is being discussed is "regional parliaments" - this has been tried before and was rejected by the North East where they held the vote. I do not see why the other nations get Home Rule in it's entirety, but England can only get devolution away from Westminster if we split into ill-defined "regions".. To me, that is an awful lot like "balkanisation" of England, or to put it another way, divide and rule....


If they go down that Balkanisation route then we are done for as a country. Drip drip and thirty years down the line Muslims will definitely want there own state in the old texile belt Lancashire/Yorkshire. Kosovo Bosnia here we come. Total madness.



posted on Sep, 20 2014 @ 03:22 AM
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a reply to: Gododdin

But it's ok for Scotland to bang on about how much it wants to decide it's own affairs and we simply have to shut up, listen and give you what you want?

Why cannot England do the same? In fact, many of the Yes lot on here, prior to the vote, where saying it was time for England to stand up and fight for it's own rights.

Now we're just winging?

Get over yourself.




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